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StopSylviaBrowne - I Speak With Sylvia Browne

Where am I losing you? Seriously.

If you, again and again, categorically state that X is so and so, without expressing any doubts at the time you are stating it, then you are sure that X is so and so. At that time. That means that you think you can tell the difference. At that time.

It might as well mean that I can't tell the difference (or, simply, that there isn't a difference!) and am unable to adjust my confidence to my history of hits and misses.

It is only when you learn the truth later that you admit to not being precise. And therein lies the rub: By admitting later that she cannot in reality distinguish, she also admits that she isn't psychic.

No. She admits that she is not a fully reliable psychic but rather one who should only be relied on 80% of the time. She certainly acts contrary to that!

Because, how can you be a psychic, if you cannot distinguish at the time you get the messages?

I don't know. But neither do you.

I don't know how the communication feels like or where the errors creep in. So I cannot claim that she ought to know the difference between a right and wrong prediction.

Yes, she should know the difference between a psychic prediction and making stuff up or guessing. But she doesn't claim that she guesses 20% of the time. She says that the psychic predictions are wrong 20% of the time.

How is that different from cold reading (in the case where you are aware of what you are doing) or insanity (in the case where you aren't aware, but merely listens to/imagines voices in your head)?

Maybe she does hear voices in her head, and those are right only 80% of the time?

If I was playing poker, and the voices in my head would tell me the cards of my opponents and get them right 80% of the time, how should I know when the voices have got it right?

Hell, I don't even need voices. I could play poker and cheat. I wear a little receiver in my ear and have a hidden camera behind my opponents. A computer evaluates the images and tells me what cards my opponents are most likely playing. The computer gets it right 80% of the time.

So, I will probably win a lot of money playing that way. But I can never tell you if my idea of what cards my opponent holds is right or wrong during any given game. I just know - from experience- that its right 80% of the time.

The moment Sylvia acknowledges that she is wrong some of the time but doesn't know it at the time, she also acknowledges that she is not psychic.

No. That simply doesn't follow.

In my example above, I am cheating. I am still cheating even if it only works in 80% of all games and even if i never know what type of game I play at any given time.
 
It might as well mean that I can't tell the difference (or, simply, that there isn't a difference!) and am unable to adjust my confidence to my history of hits and misses.

Yeah. But that is not what Sylvia is saying. She does not say "Oh, I could be wrong about Shawn Hornbeck, but...". She says "Shawn is dead, sorry!" - right up until she finds out that he isn't.

No. She admits that she is not a fully reliable psychic but rather one who should only be relied on 80% of the time. She certainly acts contrary to that!

She only admits that after she has been proven wrong.

I don't know. But neither do you.

I don't know how the communication feels like or where the errors creep in. So I cannot claim that she ought to know the difference between a right and wrong prediction.

Yes, she should know the difference between a psychic prediction and making stuff up or guessing. But she doesn't claim that she guesses 20% of the time. She says that the psychic predictions are wrong 20% of the time.

After she has been proven wrong, in the cases where she was.

Maybe she does hear voices in her head, and those are right only 80% of the time?

If I was playing poker, and the voices in my head would tell me the cards of my opponents and get them right 80% of the time, how should I know when the voices have got it right?

Hell, I don't even need voices. I could play poker and cheat. I wear a little receiver in my ear and have a hidden camera behind my opponents. A computer evaluates the images and tells me what cards my opponents are most likely playing. The computer gets it right 80% of the time.

So, I will probably win a lot of money playing that way. But I can never tell you if my idea of what cards my opponent holds is right or wrong during any given game. I just know - from experience- that its right 80% of the time.

You would only know after the fact.

That's what you are missing.

No. That simply doesn't follow.

Yes, it does. Because, if you can't tell, then you can't know if you are 1) psychic, 2) cheating or 3) are insane.

You have to know at the time you are receiving these messages, if you want to claim you are psychic. If you don't know, then you could be either psychic, cheating or insane - but you couldn't tell the difference, until the messages were independently verified. But Sylvia does not say she is in doubt at the time she is receiving the messages.
 
I am sure it's like the shoplifting and they can detain you if your caught cheating in the casino, but has for just detaining someone you better have legal authority to do it! And just like shoplifting you better have proof it really happened because security guards have gone to prison for it. I also believe Robert won the day and her (Sylvia) calling security proves that it was a situation she couldn't control and Robert waa person she couldn't control so she used other means.
You're making some dangerous assumptions about security officers. Not all security officers are equal.

Some -- the ones you derisively call rent-a-cops -- have exactly the same authority as any non-security employee of that institution. That means they have exactly the same rights to question and arrest (as a citizen) as anyone.

Such rights are not identical between properties. The rules/laws at a retail establishment differ from those at a hospital or home.

Some security are peace officers (title may vary), meaning that they have full law enforcement authority but only on the grounds of the establishment.

Some are full fledged law enforcement.

While I don't know anything specifically about where Sylvia's show was, I would wager a large amount that in a large hotel with a casino the security are at least peace officers.
 
Robert:
I haven't been on this forum in months due to time constraints, but I just had to hop on here and commend you on what I think is your best article yet on stopsylviabrowne.com. Great job, and I look forward to more great stuff.
 
Yes, it does. Because, if you can't tell, then you can't know if you are 1) psychic, 2) cheating or 3) are insane.

Why do you assume that "being psychic" would mean "always right"? If that was an established fact you might have a point. I see no reason to doubt that you could be psychic and still get things wrong.

You have to know at the time you are receiving these messages, if you want to claim you are psychic.

All I have to know is that reception of the messages is of a psychic nature. I don't have to know if the content of the communications is accurate or erroneous.

If you don't know, then you could be either psychic, cheating or insane - but you couldn't tell the difference, until the messages were independently verified.

Again, where does it say that whatever a psychic message is, it would have to be 100% reliable?

And no, Sylvia Browne's demeanour at the time of passing on a message isn't a good enough reason to make that assumption. A far better explanation is that she isn't rationally responding to the fact that she's not always right.

But Sylvia does not say she is in doubt at the time she is receiving the messages.

So maybe she is not in doubt? But that doesn't prove anything other than her overconfidence. But to say that we don't need to even bother asking if she is psychic - we just have to contrast her confidence with her self-admitted error levels.
 
If you say that you are right most of the time, speak as thought you are right all of the time, but there's no way to distinguish whether you are right or not until it's too late, what good are you?
 
Not giving a warning about her supposed reliability levels proves that Sylvia is callous, not that she is not psychic (though obviously she is not psychic).
 
Superb work, Robert!
Thanks, Pisc!

Cheers to all involved.
Thanks, ZA!

Great article Robert. I am glad to get the whole story and not just my view of the door from outside and the bits you were kind enough to tell me when I was there. You were indeed the picture of grace under pressure.
Thanks, Koch. And thanks for being there to witness whatever happened.

I wish I had my camera ready when she came wheeling out of the theater, the look she gave you would have made a great picture, serious daggers coming out of her eyes.
She was definitely not happy.

Great work, Robert!
Thanks, A9er!

I think we should all start to be very street-cool like SB obviously is and when we want to say something is "accurate" or "honest" we say "it's nasty".
:D

Good Work, Robert!
Thanks!

Well done!!
Thanks!

Well done, both of you.
Thanks, jj!

By the way, I would also (of course you should ask a lawyer about this first) write a letter to the place that threw you out, asking for exactly the complaint, exactly what evidence was actually collected, and exactly what casino regulation allowed them to throw you out.
I doubt they'd be forthcoming, jj. For them, it ould serve no purpose, and would only be potentially opening them up to a suit (not that I would sue). From my POV, they just did their job.

*simply stands up and cheers!*
:D

More than just an article exposing that nasty bitch, it's a lesson on how to handle oneself in the face of such blatant nonsense.
Thanks, doc!

Thourough and balanced as always. Clearly, there was someone nasty in the room, though I very much doubt it was you, your wife or Claus!
Thanks, 'scratcher!

BTW: thinking more about your article. Save for you and Claus, it seems stlike most of the questions posed were pretty soft. Meaning that she could answer them (86% of the time at least!) easilly with meaningless answers.
Yes, just like on the Montel show, only more so.

Did you hear other pose (intentionally or not) questions like Claus that would have rendered immediagely identifable true or false information?
Not that I recall, no.

Also, have you heard from anyone else in the audience?
Yesterday I heard from two of them. I hope to put them in another article soon, and am trying to get permission to do so. One very much agrees with me, and the other has a complaint because he misunderstood or misinterpreted something.

That is my favourite article to date!
Thanks, Minarvia!

I am absolutely astounded that Sylvia made such a public brouhaha over you, both inside and outside. Bringing such attention to you and the site is like shooting herself in her own foot. I can't believe she had such lack of control that she actually had the gall to call you out in public. That is probably the worst thing she could have done for herself.
I agree.

Once again Robert, I'm in awe. Your ability to keep your cool was, well, cool. My chapeau is off to you, Susan and Claus.
Thanks, SW!

Great article dude!
Thanks, dude!

Wait...you mean Sylvia's spirit guide got both your first name and your last name correct? How can you not believe, man? HOW CAN YOU NOT BELIEVE?????
:D

Actually, I wondered if that was where she was going with it, and I was ready to respond if she did.

Sir, I respectfully disagree. No article you write on SSB.com could ever be long enough.
Thanks, Reno! You're very kind.

Robert that took guts.

It also took guts for your wife to go.
Thanks, Kitty.

But Heres the law those security guards are not police officers they have no right and you don't have to comply by showing ID. Another thing they have no right to detain you and if they try to detain you it's called false imprisonment which will get those secuirty guards put in jail.
Tiger, they did not detain me, because I did not try to leave. Perhaps if I had just left at that point, they would have let me, since my leaving was their goal. But I made a conscious decision to stay and see how it played out. They never asked me to stay. I stayed of my own volition.

Best. article. ever.
Thanks!

(Little formatting issue.. "Woman #3" doesn't have color or bolding like the others.)
Yes, I ran out of unique colors built into my CSS template. I need to add some. Thanks for making sure I knew!
 
If you say that you are right most of the time, speak as thought you are right all of the time, but there's no way to distinguish whether you are right or not until it's too late, what good are you?

What do you mean "too late"?

You never know if something was right or wrong until after the fact!

So, I would still be pretty good if my actual success rate was better than chance (let alone 80%).

I could be even better/more useful if I was less full of myself and told my clients to simply assume what I said would be true. But those are different questions to the one asking if i was, indeed, psychic.
 
Great article RSL. You handled that situation with far more class than most would. Also, props to CFL for giving RSL and his better half the tickets, as well as his rocking question.

One thing which worries me, do you think that the next reporter to question Browne on SSB will hear something like "Oh, him? He came to one of my shows in Las Vegas and made a scene, security ended up kicking him out!" (given Sylvia's penchant for half-truths (heck, this one is 2/3rds of the truth), this seems to be likely what she would say about it) not follow up on it any further and then print it? Not that you could have done anything else in that situation, mind. I hope to the FSM they call you or the Excalibur and get the story straight, but they may not.

I hate Sylvia as much as anyone (heck, more than most since my wife is still utterly convinced of her "abilities" [insert angry emoticon here]) but the war on ignorance is certainly sometimes a PR battle.

Still, great article and you certainly did us proud RSL.
 
I hate Sylvia as much as anyone (heck, more than most since my wife is still utterly convinced of her "abilities" [insert angry emoticon here]) but the war on ignorance is certainly sometimes a PR battle.

Still, great article and you certainly did us proud RSL.

What does your wife think about RSL's site?
 
If you say that you are right most of the time, speak as thought you are right all of the time, but there's no way to distinguish whether you are right or not until it's too late, what good are you?

Maybe psychic powers are like memory: Your confidence in the accuracy of a memory has no bearing on the actual accuracy.

Of course, memories can be corroborated by other means. Sort of like when the body of someone who is supposed to be a sex slave in Japan shows up in Utah, or something.
 
Great stuff, Robert - but don't forget to
a) get rid of the beard, or
b) wear a burqa
the next time you attend one of Sylvia's shows...

By the way, I was delighted to hear that she was holding court in a tiny studio theatre, not selling out a huge hotel conference room!
 
Wait...you mean Sylvia's spirit guide got both your first name and your last name correct? How can you not believe, man? HOW CAN YOU NOT BELIEVE?????

I got the impression from reading the article that this is exactly what Sylvia wanted the audience to think...that she was able to determine his identity from paranormal means.

"My spirit guide identified you! Of course, the private investigator did, too, but they never talk to each other."
 
Least I get carried away with my bickering: Great work as usual, RSL. Thanks too to your wife and Claus!
 
Great stuff, Robert - but don't forget to
a) get rid of the beard, or
b) wear a burqa
the next time you attend one of Sylvia's shows...

By the way, I was delighted to hear that she was holding court in a tiny studio theatre, not selling out a huge hotel conference room!

She's going to be paranoid now. Anyone wearing a burqa will be detained and subjected to a cavity search.
 
Why do you assume that "being psychic" would mean "always right"? If that was an established fact you might have a point. I see no reason to doubt that you could be psychic and still get things wrong.

We have to go with what Sylvia says. Always go with the claim. At the time she is delivering a psychic message, there is no doubt. She is right at the time.

You keep missing this point: There is a huge difference between saying "I may be wrong, but it looks to me as if Shawn Hornbeck is dead" and "Shawn Hornbeck is dead" (but after which she admits that she was wrong).

All I have to know is that reception of the messages is of a psychic nature. I don't have to know if the content of the communications is accurate or erroneous.

How do you tell if a message is of psychic nature, if it is erroneous?

Again, where does it say that whatever a psychic message is, it would have to be 100% reliable?

And no, Sylvia Browne's demeanour at the time of passing on a message isn't a good enough reason to make that assumption.

It isn't her demeanour at the time of passing on a message. It's her assuredness at the time of passing on a message.

At the time of her passing on a message, does she give any indication that she is fallible? No, she does not.

It is only after the fact that she admits that she is not always correct. But she doesn't say when she is doing it if she is wrong or not.

A far better explanation is that she isn't rationally responding to the fact that she's not always right.

Why? We know she is a calculating crook, so why would we assume she is not rational?

So maybe she is not in doubt? But that doesn't prove anything other than her overconfidence. But to say that we don't need to even bother asking if she is psychic - we just have to contrast her confidence with her self-admitted error levels.

She isn't in doubt - when she says it.


If you say that you are right most of the time, speak as thought you are right all of the time, but there's no way to distinguish whether you are right or not until it's too late, what good are you?

Precisely. She certainly can't claim to be any worth as a psychic.

What do you mean "too late"?

You never know if something was right or wrong until after the fact!

That is why you don't get it: You don't understand that it makes a huge difference when psychics like Sylvia admit they are wrong. They only do it after they are shown to be wrong.

So, I would still be pretty good if my actual success rate was better than chance (let alone 80%).

I could be even better/more useful if I was less full of myself and told my clients to simply assume what I said would be true. But those are different questions to the one asking if i was, indeed, psychic.

But that is one of the attractions of psychics like Sylvia Browne and John Edward: Their confidence that they are right. No wishy-washy insecurity - these psychics know that they are right (until proven wrong, of course). They ooze confidence in their own abilities - and that is highly convincing to their fans.

Let me give you an example of how convincing Sylvia is to her fans: After the show, when we were standing outside the venue, there were a couple of young women walking by us. I caught what they said about Robert: "What a nasty man!"

They clearly had no intentions of going to StopSylviaBrowne.com and check for themselves. They just gobbled up Sylvia's opinion of Robert and made it their own. They did it, because they are so used to Sylvia being right that they have stopped questioning anything she says. Sylvia can say anything, and fans like that will believe it.
 
Out of curiosity, was Sylvia's performance less conspicuously advertised than John Edward's? Did anyone get a glimpse of where Edward was, the size of the room, audience, etc?

I remember back when JE published his first book, he mentioned Sylvia in the dedication or acknowledgments as having paved the way for people like him, so I'd think at one time her lectures would have drawn a bigger audience. Also, I could swear I remember someone on this forum saying that Sylvia was once reluctant to share a stage with JE, as if she was too good to have to stoop so low.

So I can't help but wonder if she's now been relegated to stooping...
 
I think I understand what you are saying Claus, however, though such behaviour would be indicative of a non psychic, it could also indicate a callous psychic with good business sense.
 

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