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Creationist "PWNED" by Lenski

dogjones

Graduate Poster
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
1,303
Here is an exchange between Andy Schlafly, bloke behind "conservapedia", and Richard Lenski. I found it on Ben Goldacre's site. Wonderful wonderful wonderful. Hope the mods agree it's ok to post in its entirety.


Edited by Darat: 


First letter
June 13, 2008

Dear Professor Lenski,

Skepticism has been expressed on Conservapedia about your claims, and the significance of your claims, that E. Coli bacteria had an evolutionary beneficial mutation in your study. ....snip...

Please post the data supporting your remarkable claims so that we can review it, and note where in the data you find justification for your conclusions.

I will post your reply, or lack of reply, on www.conservapedia.com . Thank you.

Andy Schlafly, B.S.E., J.D. Conservapedia
First Reply
Dear Mr. Schlafly:

I suggest you might want to read our paper itself, which is available for download at most university libraries and is also posted as publication #180 on my website. Here’s a brief summary that addresses your three points. ...snip....
Sincerely,

Richard Lenski
Second letter
Dear Prof. Lenski,

This is my second request for your data underlying your recent paper, "Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli," published in PNAS (June 10, 2008) and reported in New Scientist ("Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in lab," June 9, 2008).
http://myxo.css.msu.edu/lenski/pdf/2008, PNAS, Blount et al.pdf
http://www.newscientist.com/channel...make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

...snip...

Andy Schlafly, B.S.E., J.D.
www.conservapedia.com
cc: PNAS, New Scientist publications
Second reply
Dear Mr. Schlafly:

I tried to be polite, civil and respectful in my reply to your first email, despite its rude tone and uninformed content. Given the continued rudeness of your second email, and the willfully ignorant and slanderous content on your website, my second response will be less polite. I expect you to post my response in its entirety; if not, I will make sure that is made publicly available through other channels.


...snip...
Sorry for the confusion but Rule 4 is quite clear, complete articles are not be posted here.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
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Wow. To use my internet speak, that is some serious pwnage there. I wonder what will happen next.
 
I wish he was a member of this forum, so I could nominate the man.
 
A true scientific smack down, way to go scientist Lenski.
I must have missed the memo that explained what PWNED means, do tell.
 
If the data speak for thhemsleves, what harm could there be in releasing them to anyone, no matter how unqualified?
 
If the data speak for thhemsleves, what harm could there be in releasing them to anyone, no matter how unqualified?

No harm, but it's probably not just a matter of emailing a few documents. He's been doing this study for many years and I'm sure the data are voluminous. Why should he shoulder the burden of reproducing it all and shipping it out just to satisfy some misinformed crank?
 
If the data speak for thhemsleves, what harm could there be in releasing them to anyone, no matter how unqualified?

Did you read the response?

The data is released, in the papers published. The bactiral line itself is the only thing not released, and that is understandable. Bactrial culturing and examination requires a degree of skill and equipment to perform safely, accurately, and effectively...things that were all clearly explained in Lenski's second reply.
 
Huntsman is right, but I believe the ill-informed crank is asking for copies of all the raw data. Knowing full well I'm sure that he won't get them, but allowing him to claim that the data are being withheld and the researchers are hiding something.
 
OK, I'm confused. I thought that the data were recorded in the lab notebooks as the fitness assays, etc. were performed and then fed into some data analysis program such as SigmaPlot which produced the graphs published in the PNAS article. Now, I'm not exactly sire of the procedure for releasing such documents, but it does seem that they could be produced witout much incovenience to Lenski.
 
Isn't all this addressed in the second reply?

No. He did address why he wouldn't release the strains to Schlafly or his "acolytes" simply because they requested them. However, his main reason for refusing to release his lab not (which I understand to be the data) seems to be that Schlafly et al. don't understand them and would twist them to serve their personal agenda, which doesn't seem to be very much of a reason at all.
 
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OK, I'm confused. I thought that the data were recorded in the lab notebooks as the fitness assays, etc. were performed and then fed into some data analysis program such as SigmaPlot which produced the graphs published in the PNAS article. Now, I'm not exactly sire of the procedure for releasing such documents, but it does seem that they could be produced witout much incovenience to Lenski.

Ah, I see.

I don't see how that would be any different from the same data being presented in the article. Of course, I also don't think this would be useful to any significant degree. I mean, if, as the crank claims, this is all fabriacated data and a hoax, why in the world wouldn't the lab books be faked too?

As to inconvenience, I'd have to say this could be a pain. You wouldn't want to give up your originals, because you'll need to go back and look over data, etc. Which means they'd have to 1. Find all the relevent materials, 2. make copies of them all, 3. Properly bind and/or label the copies to prevent mix-ups (at least putting seperate documents in seperate folders/dividers) and 4. Mail them. Now, imagine if this guy gets them to do all that, they have no real excuse for not doing it for the next crank that comes along, and the next, etc. I could see it as being annoying enough the first time, and setting a precedent that could prevent a lot of future work. At best, I might see him offering to let crank make his own copies if he got transport to Lenski's location, anything more seems unreasonable to me.

Not to mention that I doubt the existence of log books would make any difference to said crank. Heck, they could probably send copies of 24 hour video surveillance of the lab for the last 20 years and the crank would probably still claim it wasn't enough ;)

They've presented the data they collected, they've offered to make the various strains avaialble for anyone else who is qualified to research, so I don't see a problem. All crank needs to do is hire or otehrwise convince a qualified expert to request the samples, and he can re-create the work.

ETA: HE did also state that they'd post any additional data on the website (the data that wasn't mentioned in the paper because it didn't pertain to the citrate). From the crank's own request:
Submission guidelines for the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science state that "(viii) Materials and Data Availability. To allow others to replicate and build on work published in PNAS, authors must make materials, data, and associated protocols available to readers. Authors must disclose upon submission of the manuscript any restrictions on the availability of materials or information."
From the paper and the offer of bacterial strains to anyone qualified to examine them, I think Lenski has met this burden. I don't think the lab notes (the relevent data from which are in the papers) are needed, nor would they be useful to reproducing the work.
 
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I wouldn't give the idiot any data, any samples of bacterial cultures, anything at all.

He's utterly incapable of understanding or using them, his request is insincere, and he'd just ask for something else. It is far better never to start down that path.

The idiot will continue to be revered by his own crowd and ridiculed by the rest of us regardless of what Lenski or anyone else does.

We should celebrate Lenski's achievement for a century, mock the idiot's idiocy for another ten seconds, and get back to science and living on good terms with reality.
 
Ah, I see.

I don't see how that would be any different from the same data being presented in the article. Of course, I also don't think this would be useful to any significant degree. I mean, if, as the crank claims, this is all fabriacated data and a hoax, why in the world wouldn't the lab books be faked too?

*snip*

Not to mention that I doubt the existence of log books would make any difference to said crank. Heck, they could probably send copies of 24 hour video surveillance of the lab for the last 20 years and the crank would probably still claim it wasn't enough ;)

They've presented the data they collected, they've offered to make the various strains avaialble for anyone else who is qualified to research, so I don't see a problem. All crank needs to do is hire or otehrwise convince a qualified expert to request the samples, and he can re-create the work....

Much like the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.
 

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