Philosophers, Physicists and Cranks

The point I wanted to make was that Einstein maintained that having a philosophical approach and mind made him a better physicist.

However, to call Einstein a philosopher, would mean that you could also call him a musician. The 1905 paper on Relativity,quite clearly has a philosophical tone to it. Thus, philosophy in science cannot be altogether a bad idea.
 
The mathematician usually can make do with pecil, paper, and an eraser. The philosopher don't need an eraser.
 
Perhaps I'm over generalizing, but in my view a large part of the problem with modern philosophers of physics is that they rarely understand the topic well enough to be able to say anything intelligent. Even QM - invented a century ago - is difficult enough that few philosophers seem to be able to come to grips with it. More timely and interesting topics - modern cosmology, string theory, the anthropic principle, which ought to be their bread and butter - seem totally out of reach for them.

Hi Sol

Thats why Einstein suggested the following

"It has often been said, and certainly not without justification, that the man of science is a poor philosopher. Why then should it not be the right thing for the physicist to let the philosopher do the philosphising? Such might indeed be the right thing to do at a time when the physicist believes he has at his disposal a rigid system of fundamental laws which are so well established that waves of doubt cant reach them: but it cannot be right at a time when the very foundation of physics itself have become problematic as they are now. At a time like the present, when experience forces us to seek a new and more solid foundation, the physicist cannot simply surrender to the philosopher the critical contemplation of theoretical foundations: for he himself knows best and feels more surely where the shoe pinches."

If one looks at the physics curriculum of any modern university, not many include the philosophy of science. That is why no self respecting physicist would leave the decisions to a philosopher, because as you say the philosopher does not understand physics. Hence the physicist should understand philosophy. As Einstein said, it made him a better physicist.
 
Careful reflection on philosophical ideas is rare. Worse still ,
publicly indulging an interest in philosophy of science is often treated
as social blunder.

Skwinty, I get the feeling that you're posting from a vacuum in which you're not talking to either physicists or philosophers. Some of your premises are false.

Physicists talk philosophy all the time---I've had a number of discussions with colleagues about foundations of quantum mechanics, in particular. (Many-worlds versus Copenhagen versus there-must-be-something-we've-missed; there's no "social blunder" in these discussions at all.) In the wake of the "Intelligent Design" nonsense, I've been in serious amateur discussions of the nature of scientific inquiry, about Kuhn and Popper, etc. The current state of string theory, cosmology, and the LHC has sparked serious discussions about "naturalness" and beauty in physics; about the anthropic principle; about fundamental and practical limits to human knowledge. In other words: yes, we discuss philosophy, and very seriously.

At the same time: no, for the most part we haven't read Kant. Why not? Because, to a large extent, reading Kant doesn't help. There are two reasons for this; first, many of Kant's basic ideas have been sort of "mainstreamed"---unless you were an undergrad at St. John's or U. Chicago on an explicitly Great Books curriculum, you'll have picked up the difference between "a priori" and "a posteriori" without having read a word of primary-source epistemology. This is no different than, e.g., knowing quantum mechanics without having read Schrodinger's old papers, or knowing your way around modern economics without having read "Wealth of Nations". Secondly, a lot of classical philosophy turns out to have been interesting detours towards dead ends. I'm sure Kant had a lot of great hopes for what we would be able to learn "once we've cleared up this analytic/synthetic problem", and Hegel surely thought that his successors would stand on the shoulders of dialectics and move on to better things ... but that really hasn't happened. The stuff that got "mainstreamed" was the best stuff, and some of the rest turns out to have been word-games and confusion.

As a matter of curriculum, please note that no physics program-of-study requires "History of Science" coursework, yet we all tend to know quite a bit of such history.

Next, you seem to be confused about the capabilities of philosophy of science. Philosophy has never, not once, served to tell scientists where to look. It hasn't served to distinguish a true theory from a false theory (except insofar as "the scientific method" has encoded some things which might be called epistimology---but these methods were developed as practices by working scientists, then described by philosophers.) Einstein's 1905 work was basically that a particular change-of-variables simultaneously simplified Maxwell's Equations and made the speed of light emitter- and observer-independent. In response, philosophers said, "ooh, what is time, really?" Schrodinger struggled to find an equation which reproduced both free-electron motion and hydrogen and helium spectra. Afterwards, philosophers said, "ooh, what's really underlying matter, measurement, and consciousness?" And so on. Physics/data/math/theory first, philosophy second. At no point did philosophers of science stand up and say, "Whoa, old chaps, this Aether business is really untenable from a Humean point of view", whereupon scientists said, "you're right, time for a paradigm shift." Skwinty, your position seems to be (a) philosophy is good, therefore (b) science + philosophy must better than science alone, therefore (c) when science appears to be in alone and trouble (that's what you hear, anyway) so clearly it needs philosophy to help. That sounds nice on paper, in the abstract, but historically speaking it has no basis whatsoever.

One argument you could make: you could argue that the "EPR paradox" is so well-studied, in part, by physicists trying to clear up a philosophical objection to quantum mechanics. But you will by no means win this argument; Einstein's reasoning, which was basically, "Hang on, if your equation X is correct it predicts Y, and Y sounds unbelieveable", is entirely within the normal, modern thought process of physicists; it's something we do every day (I'd call these thought-experiments "sanity checks") and would identify as "science" rather than "philosophy." Other than EPR I can think of nothing where you can even begin arguing that philosophy led science. Perhaps you'd like to make a case for General Relativity, but I'd disagree even more strongly---the core of GR's philosophy is "a good theory should be as mathematically unified as possible". That's again been very thoroughly mainstreamed, and anyway you'll find no basis for it in classical philosophy, unless you count Occam.

Finally, let's clear up the nature of the "Trouble with Physics". The trouble with physics is not that our theories are philosophically objectionable. There are no internal inconsistencies, no existential/causal/epistemological paradoxes, no confusion, etc., in Quantum Mechanics or in General Relativity. That's not "the trouble." The trouble is, when trying to unify QM and GR, that we have thousands of candidate theories, each of which is equally philosophically sound, physically plausible, and consistent with experiments. There is no way whatsoever that a Kantian thinker could sit down and look at (to pick and example) Randall-Sundrum warped gravity, or Type IIA Supergravity, and tell us that one of them is (or is not) unacceptable---since (assuming solutions to outstanding mathematical problems) both of them may well be able to describe all modern experimental data. That's "the trouble with physics": modern data is consistent with many different theories, whose differences are visible only at 10^10 GeV. I can't imagine what you want a philosopher to add. "Is the theory consistent with the data? OK, uh, what about naturalness and anthropic arguments? Oh, you'd dealt with that. Um, have you tried thinking outside the box? Oh, that's where the dozens of theories came from. How about inside the box? Another dozen theories? OK." This is nothing specific to ultra-modern physics---there's no way that a Kantian philosopher could have sat down (prior to Maxwell's equations), and told us that there was anything philosopically wrong with Galilean relativity and the aether wave theory of light. There's no way that Democritus and Aristotle could have sat down and philosophically resolved their disagreement about atomism, because given the data they had there was no way to distinguish a true theory of matter from a false one.

To sum up: "the trouble with physics" can't be solved by better epistemology; it'll be solved by better experiments, better math, or better physics---or possibly it won't be solved at all. Nothing in philosophy, in the past or the future, guarantees that the "real" theory of Nature can be distinguished from false theories without 100-TeV-scale experiments. Please note also that physicists disagree on whether this is "trouble" at all.
 
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INRM The degree of danger of a particular piece of science or research is best determined by the scientists. Who decides whether it should go ahead given a particular level of danger is the difficult part. Moral philosophers have no more right or insight than anyone else in this type of decision. I agree that politicians should not decide on their own but in our imperfect democracy they often reflect the views of the majority.

You're saying essentially that only scientists should be the ones to be judging the moral or ethical implications in the matter (as you are opposed to moral philosophers and politics or any form of regulation in the idea). I think this is a very dangerous idea.

I don't think scientists should be the only people making the decisions... scientists can be short-sighted and can be so caught up in their experiments that they fail to properly appreciate the ramifications of the long-term effects of what they're currently doing now. Now I'm not saying all scientists are this way, but there are some that are.

Way too much questions concerning "Can we do it?" and not enough questions concerning "Should we do it?".

If you end up operating only under the question "Can we do it" without ever asking "Should we do it" (And I think Scientists ask the former WAY more than the latter) you ultimately end up, intentionally or not, with science completely absent of morality or ethics -- which is one of the most dangerous things.


As for Albert Einstein's quote
the physicist cannot simply surrender to the philosopher the critical contemplation of theoretical foundations: for he himself knows best and feels more surely where the shoe pinches."

The physicist and philosopher however do complement each other and help balance each other. And a scientist who tries to be philosophical will help himself out, but he is first and formost a scientist, and as a result tends to focus more on the "Should We" side of things...


INRM
 
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In reading a history of the atomic bomb tests, it's pretty obvious the early tests were conducted with the knowledge that just maybe, one of those things -could- ignite the atmosphere and terminate life.
Pressing on regardless, that didn't happen, but the thought that it might apparently had little effect on doing the testing.
We engineers like to see our toys work, after all!
 
Hi Ben m et al
Firstly I would like to thank you for taking the time to add your opinion on this thread.
however, I feel that you are making some assumptions about me, which I will try and correct. I am not in a vacuum and I do talk to philosophers and physicists. I also read quite extensively on both subjects. Although I am neither philosopher nor physicist ,I do have an interest in both disciplines.

Now a lot of physicists will say and here I quote from this forum:

"in my view a large part of the problem with modern philosophers of physics is that they rarely understand the topic well enough to be able to say anything intelligent. Even QM - invented a century ago - is difficult enough that few philosophers seem to be able to come to grips with it. More timely and interesting topics - modern cosmology, string theory, the anthropic principle, which ought to be their bread and butter - seem totally out of reach for them."

"Even the most profound philosopher when sitting eating his dinner, hasn't any difficulty making out that what he looks at perhaps might only be the light from the steak, but it still implies the existence of the steak, which he is able to lift by the fork to his mouth. The philosophers that were unable to make this analysis and idea have fallen by the wayside through hunger."

"Can't see why there is any problem with scientists showing disdain for philosophers. Unless they show some utility, what are they worth, certainly nothing to a scientist."

"Why is not a physics question. What, where, and when are physics questions. Why is a philosophical question. I'm not particularly interested in philosophy, given that its most recent production of any note is deconstructionism, which claims that there is no objective reality"

"What answer to 'why' has any philosopher contributed to science?"

"Philosophers say a great deal about what is absolutely necessary for science, and it is always, so far as one can see, rather naive, and probably wrong."

This indicates to me that not all physicists share your view and to discuss philosophy with them would must definately equate to a social blunder.
It is also obvious that these physicists are not prone to carefully reflect on philosophical ideas.
As far as physicists of today not reading Kant, I never suggested that they should, only that Einstein had read all 3 of Kants works by the age of 16.
As to curricula not requiring study of philosophy I stated that earlier and I quote:

"If one looks at the physics curriculum of any modern university, not many include the philosophy of science. That is why no self respecting physicist would leave the decisions to a philosopher, because as you say the philosopher does not understand physics. Hence the physicist should understand philosophy. As Einstein said, it made him a better physicist"

As far as my "confusion about the capabilities of philosphy" I dont recall making any special claims in this regard, I merely quoted Einsteins position on philosophy. Perhaps in your opinion he was confused.

With regard to my position a,b and c, once again I was quoting Einstein.
"I fully agree with you about the significance and educational value of methodology as well as history and philosophy of science. So many people today - and even professional scientists - seem to me like someone who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background gives that kind of independance from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering. This independance created by philosophical insight is - in my opinion - the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth"

"The reciprocal relationship of epistomology and science is of noteworthy kind. They are dependant on each other. Epistomology without contact with science becomes an empty scheme. Science without epistomology is- insofar as it is thinkable at all- primitive and muddled."

I apologise for requoting my previous post but it is apparent that they were not read properly the first time.

With respect to trouble in physics. It is my understanding that in almost any branch of physics there are concerns that the theories and models are becoming somewhat cumbersome and there is a search for ways to simplify the whole process.

Now,physics has come a long way but there is still a long way to go.
Quantum theory is probably the pinnacle of physics theories but it still overestimates the energy density of dark matter by 1 followed by 123 zeros.

Maybe string theory is the new messiah, maybe not.

Some of the remaing questions to be answered are:

1.What is dark energy?
2.What is dark matter?
3.What is space?
4.What is the fate of the universe?
5.Why is the speed of light the speed limit?
6.What is conciousness?
7.Does life have a special role to play in the universe?
8.Why has the universe given rise to matter that contemplates its surrounds and asks "WHY"?

How many of these questions do you think will be answered by physics and expensive experiments and how many will be answered by philosophical thinking.
This is why I feel as did Einstein, that philosophy can only make better physicists.
But then again I dont have a PHD in Science or Physics and I always believed that PHD stood for Doctor of Philosophy.
 
Originally Posted by Acleron
INRM The degree of danger of a particular piece of science or research is best determined by the scientists. Who decides whether it should go ahead given a particular level of danger is the difficult part. Moral philosophers have no more right or insight than anyone else in this type of decision. I agree that politicians should not decide on their own but in our imperfect democracy they often reflect the views of the majority.
You're saying essentially that only scientists should be the ones to be judging the moral or ethical implications in the matter (as you are opposed to moral philosophers and politics or any form of regulation in the idea). I think this is a very dangerous idea.

I think you should read my post again.

I specifically did not say that scientists should be the only judge of the morals etc. Perhaps I didn't expand enough. Take the case of the Large Hadron Collider. The scientists can predict the probabilities of micro-black holes and strangelets. Given this information, in a perfect world, the general public can decide whether to allow the experiment to happen.

I also did not say that moral philosophers should not take part in the decision merely that they have no higher right to take part than the general public.

I specifically did say that politicians should take part but not without public discussion.

I did not say anything directly about regulation but from the context, it should be clear that I am in favour of it.

In general I'm in favour of all scientific research. I'm also pretty much in favour of the the technological progress from the results of that research. I'm also aware that other people have opposing views. The recent UK discussion on stem cell research is a good example of how not to have a debate. The facts were lost in a mire of misinformation, religion and political in-fighting that had much to do with keeping a particular person in power. Unfortunately, it seems the best system we have. At least the public were involved at some level. This is a small improvement over the Macmillan government who suppressed the debate over smoking habits because of their own particular beliefs. I also think that the only way to get the public more usefully involved in these debates is through education and all hail to the JREF for allowing these discussions to take place so they may see reasoned debate.

Huff, a lengthy post for me, so I'd better get down to the pub for some fluid replacement therapy.
 
It appears that many of you have been attracted to the "success" of the hegemonic modern scientific "enterprise". Such priveleged narratives fall away when seen from within the radically deconstructed pseudocenter of any poststructuralist subtext. The enlightenment project is therefore wrong.

(I'm going to publish that.)
 
This indicates to me that not all physicists share your view and to discuss philosophy with them would must definately equate to a social blunder.
It is also obvious that these physicists are not prone to carefully reflect on philosophical ideas.

This is refusal to reflect on some philosophical ideas. Teleology, and existentialism, for example---both perfectly valid topics of discussion---are probably unpopular among scientists, and when you ask questions like, "But why was there a big bang at all?" you'll get answers like "pshaw, that's a philosophy question." If you ask questions like "are wavefunctions real?" you'll get a real answer. (It might be a hard-core empiricist answer, which indeed would reject a large swath of non-empiricist philosophy. But that doesn't make it unphilosophical.)

With respect to trouble in physics. It is my understanding that in almost any branch of physics there are concerns that the theories and models are becoming somewhat cumbersome and there is a search for ways to simplify the whole process.

The "ways to simplify the process" are pretty limited. There are an infinite number of simple, philosophically- and aesthetically-pleasing theories which do not describe our observations. There must be some theory which does describe our observations. The process of finding it is called "theoretical physics". The hard part, the time-consuming and frustrating and cumbersome part, is the part where you evaluate a candidate theory and compare it to observations. Your simplification can't skip that part, therefore it can't be much less cumbersome than the status quo. (Other sorts of simplification---finding better, quicker, more general ways to evaluate theories, and in more detail---are exactly what theorists actually do.)

Maybe string theory is the new messiah, maybe not.

... which is why some theorists are working on strings, and others are working on other theories. "Physics is broken because it's adopted string theory to the exclusion of everything else" is a falsism which recurs over and over in the crackpot world.

Some of the remaing questions to be answered are:

1.What is dark energy?
2.What is dark matter?
3.What is space?
4.What is the fate of the universe?

... all normal physics topics, to be addressed by physicists finding equations to describe/predict them.

5.Why is the speed of light the speed limit?

What possible sort of answer could satisfy you on this point? In relativity, there has to be some relationship between the time-dimension and the space-dimensions. That relationship affects all trajectories through spacetime, including photon trajectories ("the speed of light") and massive particle trajectories (which have a "speed limit"). Does that answer "why"? Do you want to know "why" it's 2.99e8 m/s? That's really not likely to have a happy mechanistic answer---it may an anthropic multiverse sort of answer, a symmetry-breaking answer, or no answer at all.

6.What is conciousness?

Not a physics question, unless you want the quantum many-worlds version of it. As far as we know, consciousness has something to do with particular signal-patterns, known thus far only from particular water/lipid/protein structures which happened to arise on a particular planet---and very little to do with exactly how many gravity waves were generated at the end of Big Bang inflation.

7.Does life have a special role to play in the universe?
8.Why has the universe given rise to matter that contemplates its surrounds and asks "WHY"?

You might as well add, "9.Do economic agents rationally maximize a complex utility function, or try, but fail, to maximize a simple one? 10.What does 'species' really mean in a world with horizontal gene transfer? 11.How does a just God allow suffering?" and plead for more interaction between physicists and economists, biologists, and theologans.

There has never been a physics theory which answered these sorts of questions. Galileo didn't do it, nor Newton, nor Einstein, nor Planck. All we've ever gotten from physics, to a pretty good approximation, is equations-of-motion. If we do find the theory-of-everything, it will be is an equation-of-motion which is valid at extreme energies or curvatures---nothing more. The same reductionism as usual, just more accurate. What makes you think the next step will (or should, or can) be different? What makes you think that that equation-of-motion will have something to do with life having a "special role"?
 
I did not say anything directly about regulation but from the context, it should be clear that I am in favour of it.

Science does require regulation. Even if it be basic morals -- Science without morality is one of the most dangerous things imaginable.
 
Science does require regulation. Even if it be basic morals -- Science without morality is one of the most dangerous things imaginable.
Anything without morals is highly dangerous. But this is a derail.

The OP was implying that philosophy made Einstein a better physicist. I ask again, as others have done, what have modern day philosophers contributed to our understanding of the world?
 
At no point did philosophers of science stand up and say, "Whoa, old chaps, this Aether business is really untenable from a Humean point of view", whereupon scientists said, "you're right, time for a paradigm shift." Skwinty, your position seems to be (a) philosophy is good, therefore (b) science + philosophy must better than science alone, therefore (c) when science appears to be in alone and trouble (that's what you hear, anyway) so clearly it needs philosophy to help. That sounds nice on paper, in the abstract, but historically speaking it has no basis whatsoever.

Actually, there are examples of science programs being led by philosophers. Specifically, the philosophy of dialectical materialism dominated Soviet science in the early postwar era.

Martin Gardner has written quite a few articles about how allowing lay philosophers tinker with specializations in the natural sciences pretty much ****s them up.
 
Science does require regulation. Even if it be basic morals -- Science without morality is one of the most dangerous things imaginable.

:rolleyes:

Maybe you should replace 'science' with 'knowledge' (the same damn thing) and reread that sentence.
 
Acleron,

Philosophy did make Einstein a better scientist, but he was still a scientist primarily and thus would tend and have a propensity to think "Can we?" more often than "Should We?". I think, since scientists ask "Can we" more than "Should we", they need a person who complements them who asks "Should We" more than "Can we?"


Third Eye Open,

Good point... lemme rephrase

1.) Knowledge without morality can be one of the most dangerous things imaginable
2.) Science without or Scientists operating without morality can be one of the most dangerous things imaginable.


INRM
 
skwinty said:
This indicates to me that not all physicists share your view and to discuss philosophy with them would must definately equate to a social blunder.

Actually I totally agree with what ben_m said (and as usual he said it extremely well - better than I could). So did Einstein, at least according to the quote you gave.

Originally all science was philosophy. But as specific disciplines developed and became predictive and interesting, they split off into their own subjects (mathematics, physics, chemistry), leaving behind only the core of what remained.... unpredictive and uninteresting.

It appears that many of you have been attracted to the "success" of the hegemonic modern scientific "enterprise". Such priveleged narratives fall away when seen from within the radically deconstructed pseudocenter of any poststructuralist subtext. The enlightenment project is therefore wrong.

(I'm going to publish that.)

Submit it to Social Text. ;)
 
Acleron,

Philosophy did make Einstein a better scientist, but he was still a scientist primarily and thus would tend and have a propensity to think "Can we?" more often than "Should We?". I think, since scientists ask "Can we" more than "Should we", they need a person who complements them who asks "Should We" more than "Can we?"
INRM

First of all, it's just an opinion that Einstein's ability as a scientist was improved by having studied Kant, after all we don't have the control, an Einstein who didn't study Kant.

Second, philosophy in the 19th century was a very broad field and included what we now call science. There were no degrees in science, this is still reflected in scientists being awarded the title of Doctor of Philosophy. Sol already said it, must must speed up thinking.
 
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First of all, it's just an opinion that Einstein's ability as a scientist was improved by having studied Kant, after all we don't have the control, an Einstein who didn't study Kant..

Yes, it's just an opinion. Einsteins own opinion.
He also read a lot more than Kant.

Here are some others:
1. Critique of Pure Experience....Richard Avenarius
2. What are the numbers and what should the numbers be...Richard Dedekind
3. Treatise of Human Nature....David Hume
4. Analysis of Sensations and the relation of the physical to the psychical....Ernst Mach
5. A System of Logic....John Stuart Mill
6. The Grammar of Science....Karl Pearson
7. Science and Hypothesis.....Henri Poincare
 
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