Mercury on the Mind

[Chris Haynes]

....

Don't forget paint??? Mercury used to be in paint???

I don't recall mentioning paint. But what do you mean by "used to"? Cinnebar is still being used:
http://naturalpigments.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=820-507

Color:Red
Colour Indexigment Red 102
Chemical Name:Mercuric sulfide
Chemical Formula:HgS

and

LABEL WARNING: MAY BE HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED. Contains Mercuric sulfide. Avoid ingestion and skin contact. Conforms to ASTM D 4236.

 

[jj]

A quick search through wikipedia shows that a child obtained mercury poisoning because of broken light bulbs.

Uh, you argue that what you read at any one time on Wikipedia has any meaning beyond the fact that somebody bothered to type it in?

Come on. According to Wikipedia, well, in my own field, the entries, or most of them, are credit-stealing, fraudulent jokes. And determined people keep adding back the credit stealing, etc, from time to time.

I can't imagine it's any better anywhere else!

I can, in fact, see if many, many light bulbs were involved over a very short period of time, maybe a problem. But that is not what the person you referred to actually inferred, as far as I read it.

And yes, Mercury is in cinnibar. At least people are smart enough not to use it (or malachite green) as cosmetics any more, although I start to wonder about these "bare minerals" advertisements for cosmetics. I mean, you probably do know where cinnebar and malachite green come from yes?

 

[technoextreme]

I don't recall mentioning paint.

Yeah I was telling you not to forget paint.

But what do you mean by "used to"?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE0DE103FF935A35757C0A966958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
Mind you that article was written before the law was created.

And yes, Mercury is in cinnibar. At least people are smart enough not to use it (or malachite green) as cosmetics any more, although I start to wonder about these "bare minerals" advertisements for cosmetics. I mean, you probably do know where cinnebar and malachite green come from yes?

Actually mercury in cosmetics is apparently still pretty problematic:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/pr/pr008-05.shtml
Which is why I like Wikipedia. For those people who can think it actually provides a pretty good springboard off of which to start doing research.

I can, in fact, see if many, many light bulbs were involved over a very short period of time, maybe a problem. But that is not what the person you referred to actually inferred, as far as I read it.

Actually, I thought heavy metals persist in the body for a very long time. I probably could find this information in one of my books on forensics but lead and other heavy metals are commonly used to slowly poison someone.

 

[BenBurch]

You are likely in more danger from mercury living downwind of a coal burning power plant than you are from any other source. And that's not really much danger. Anybody who has broken a mercury thermometer has taken in more of the stuff than all of their vaccinations. Hell, I was given some to play with as a kid (just a couple drops) but I lost it in our parking lot somewhere while showing it to somebody. Slippery stuff.

 

[gdnp]

fish and shellfish can also contain high enough levels that women, small children, and nursing mothers are advised to avoid some types:

Fish and shellfish are an important part of a healthy diet. Fish and shellfish contain high-quality protein and other essential nutrients, are low in saturated fat, and contain omega-3 fatty acids. A well-balanced diet that includes a variety of fish and shellfish can contribute to heart health and children's proper growth and development. So, women and young children in particular should include fish or shellfish in their diets due to the many nutritional benefits.

However, nearly all fish and shellfish contain traces of mercury. For most people, the risk from mercury by eating fish and shellfish is not a health concern. Yet, some fish and shellfish contain higher levels of mercury that may harm an unborn baby or young child's developing nervous system. The risks from mercury in fish and shellfish depend on the amount of fish and shellfish eaten and the levels of mercury in the fish and shellfish. Therefore, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) are advising women who may become pregnant, pregnant women, nursing mothers, and young children to avoid some types of fish and eat fish and shellfish that are lower in mercury.
By following these 3 recommendations for selecting and eating fish or shellfish, women and young children will receive the benefits of eating fish and shellfish and be confident that they have reduced their exposure to the harmful effects of mercury.

1. Do not eat Shark, Swordfish, King Mackerel, or Tilefish because they contain high levels of mercury. 2. Eat up to 12 ounces (2 average meals) a week of a variety of fish and shellfish that are lower in mercury. * Five of the most commonly eaten fish that are low in mercury are shrimp, canned light tuna, salmon, pollock, and catfish.
* Another commonly eaten fish, albacore ("white") tuna has more mercury than canned light tuna. So, when choosing your two meals of fish and shellfish, you may eat up to 6 ounces (one average meal) of albacore tuna per week.
3. Check local advisories about the safety of fish caught by family and friends in your local lakes, rivers, and coastal areas. If no advice is available, eat up to 6 ounces (one average meal) per week of fish you catch from local waters, but don't consume any other fish during that week.

Follow these same recommendations when feeding fish and shellfish to your young child, but serve smaller portions.

http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/fish/advice/

I believe that most of the mercury in fish comes from human sources such as mining and burning of coal, and the fish that are highest in mercury are those highest on the food chain.

 

[casebro]

You did not specify from what kind of source. There are lots of other case studies on PubMed, and often from all sorts of sources. That just happens to be available online with photos of the characteristic skin color.

Here is another from there of some case studies (one is a dentist, occupational hazard):
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/176/1/59

A bunch of people inject themselves with elemental Hg (also has pictures, ewww!):
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15345347

Here is a weird one where a bunch of kids were mercury poisoned by a neighbor who made mercury filled amulets:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=10856034

There are lots more... including mercury poisoning on an ore boat, the hazards for eating seafood in several countries to the dangers of being near a gold mine. The stuff is everywhere, and the fears of the itsy bitsy teeny tiny bit that used to be in vaccines is pretty silly.

By "normal environment" I sure didn't mean occupational exposure, or ore barges (more occupational exposure) or ignorant neighbors. Paint chips I'll accept- how many had clinical signs of poisoning, not harmless exposure?

How about a CDC number? Any 'Pink Ladies' from canned tuna? How many drooling idiots in insane asylums?

There being a normal level, means that we all get a bit of it. Also, we do eliminate heavy metals, via hair and fingernails.

I go now to seek verification of the kids/lightbulbs myth.

ETA: The Wiki article: one child, a whole case of broken fluorescent bulbs. The rest of Wiki is either occupational, foolish poisoning, or uses that have since been outlawed. No examples of fish, or vaccines, or less than a whole case of bulbs

 

[casebro]

I believe that most of the mercury in fish comes from human sources such as mining and burning of coal, and the fish that are highest in mercury are those highest on the food chain.

Actually, no. Antique fish specimens show amounts as high as modern samples. Yes, it is concentrated up the food chain. But as high as in paint. or lightbulbs.

 

[technoextreme]

You are likely in more danger from mercury living downwind of a coal burning power plant than you are from any other source. And that's not really much danger. Anybody who has broken a mercury thermometer has taken in more of the stuff than all of their vaccinations. Hell, I was given some to play with as a kid (just a couple drops) but I lost it in our parking lot somewhere while showing it to somebody. Slippery stuff.

Is there a chemist on this forum because from what I understand of mercury you are comparing apples to oranges. I wish I could find the link but apparently breathing in the mercury found in thermometers is more dangerous than even eating it.

 

[technoextreme]

I go now to seek verification of the kids/lightbulbs myth.

Don't even bother. I just remembered that the light bulbs of today contain less mercury that earlier CFLs. It's not a proper comparison. Sorry about that. I am an idiot for forgetting about that.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3575038

Also, we do eliminate heavy metals, via hair and fingernails.

I said slowly which actually proves my point that you don't need one major dose of a heavy metal to do damage. Little successive tiny doses will do the same.

Paint chips I'll accept- how many had clinical signs of poisoning, not harmless exposure?

Harmless exposure and getting sick are unrelated.

 

[casebro]

"5 August, 2006
WASHINGTON, Aug. 3/PRNewswire/ Nearly two-thirds of Americans questioned in a new national opinion poll mistakenly believe that more than 1,000 childhood cases of mercury poisoning, from eating fish, are identified by scientists every year in the US. The actual number of scientifically documented fish-related mercury poisoning cases among US children each year is zero.

Fully 61% of respondents believed-in error-that at least 1,000 "childhood cases of mercury poisoning from eating fish" are reported by US scientists each year. The poll, which sampled the opinions of 1,011 Americans, was comissioned by the nonprofit Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF) and conducted by Opinion Research Corporation. "

I'm not good at html tags (bolding) so I'll repeat the pertinent line here:

"The actual number of scientifically documented fish-related mercury poisoning cases among US children each year is zero."

Now, what was the OP about again?

 

[technoextreme]

"The actual number of scientifically documented fish-related mercury poisoning cases among US children each year is zero."

Now, what was the OP about again?

All that proves is that most people have a lack of understanding about the effects of mercury poisoning including yourself. Typically the mercury levels that need to be worried about are the parents not the levels in the kids.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... so thanks for the links Skeptigirl!...

You are most welcome, and thanks for your tip. Now I know about Dr Miller, the quack who is teaching cardiac surgery at the U of WA while professing every woo medicine garbage out there. This guy isn't just into the mercury thing, he's in to every quack CT from fluoride to the claim HIV doesn't cause AIDS. I wonder if there is some psychiatric diagnosis that would be consistent with an educated science professional (such as a medical doctor) that believes in this amount of nonsense?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is there a chemist on this forum because from what I understand of mercury you are comparing apples to oranges. I wish I could find the link but apparently breathing in the mercury found in thermometers is more dangerous than even eating it.

mercury compounds

Uses
Elemental mercury

* Elemental mercury is used in thermometers, barometers, and pressure-sensing devices. It is also used in batteries, lamps, industrial processes, refining, lubrication oils, and dental amalgams. (1)

Inorganic Mercury

* Inorganic mercury was used in the past in laxatives, skin-lightening creams and soaps, and in latex paint. In 1990, EPA canceled registration for all interior paints that contained mercury. Mercury use in exterior paint was discontinued after 1991. Although most agricultural and pharmaceutical uses of inorganic mercury have been discontinued in the United States, mercuric chloride is still used as a disinfectant and pesticide. (1,7)

Methyl mercury

* Methyl mercury has no industrial uses; it is formed in the environment from the methylation of the inorganic mercurial ion. (1)

Sources and Potential Exposure

Elemental Mercury
* A major source of exposure for elemental mercury is through inhalation in occupational settings. (1,3,4)
* Another source of exposure to low levels of elemental mercury in the general population is elemental mercury released in the mouth from dental amalgam fillings. (3,4,5)


Inorganic Mercury

* The general population is usually not exposed to inorganic mercury compounds to any significant extent today, as most products containing these compounds have now been banned. Limited exposure could occur through the use of old cans of latex paint, which until 1990, could contain mercury compounds to prevent bacterial and fungal growth. (1,4)


Methyl mercury

* The most important organic mercury compound, in terms of human exposure, is methyl mercury. Methyl mercury exposure occurs primarily through the diet, with fish and fish products as the dominant source. Sources of past exposure to methyl mercury include fungicide-treated grains and meat from animals fed such grain. However, fungicides containing mercury are banned in the United States today, and this source of exposure is now negligible. (1)
* Mercury has been listed as a pollutant of concern to EPA's Great Waters Program due to its persistence in the environment, potential to bioaccumulate, and toxicity to humans and the environment. (6)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Thiomersal contains ethyl mercury which is rapidly excreted from the body and not toxic in the same quantities as methyl mercury.

Then there is the really hazardous form, dimethylmercury.

 

[technoextreme]

mercury compounds

Thanks. Though now I think we need a moderator to come in and chop this discussion into two different ones. One about the original post and the second about just plain old mercury.

 

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by casebro View Post

"The actual number of scientifically documented fish-related mercury poisoning cases among US children each year is zero."

Now, what was the OP about again?

All that proves is that most people have a lack of understanding about the effects of mercury poisoning including yourself. Typically the mercury levels that need to be worried about are the parents not the levels in the kids.

I would caution against equating the phrase "mercury poisoning" with any and all toxic effects of mercury. It takes relatively high levels of mercury exposure to cause the symptoms termed mercury poisoning. Much lower levels may cause neurodevelopmental disorders, especially when exposure is during the time of rapid brain growth in fetuses and young children. This is similar to low level lead exposure. The effects are likely to be subtle: 10 points lower in IQ would be hard to detect without a huge sample.

The recommendations that I posted above that call for restricting fish and shellfish are from the EPA, and thus presumably have some scientific basis.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Thanks. Though now I think we need a moderator to come in and chop this discussion into two different ones. One about the original post and the second about just plain old mercury.

Nah, that was just background info. I don't think there's much else to add about mercury.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... Much lower levels may cause neurodevelopmental disorders, especially when exposure is during the time of rapid brain growth in fetuses and young children. This is similar to low level lead exposure. The effects are likely to be subtle: 10 points lower in IQ would be hard to detect without a huge sample.

...

I think considering all the false speculation about mercury and autism it is important to point out that the affects of mercury that you describe here are confined to exposure to the developing fetus, or to young children but only then with very high exposure levels.

1.6 How can mercury affect children?

As with mercury vapors, exposure to methylmercury is more dangerous for young children than for adults, because more methylmercury easily passes into the developing brain of young children and may interfere with the development process.

Methylmercury is the form of mercury most commonly associated with a risk for developmental effects. Exposure can come from foods contaminated with mercury on the surface (for example, from seed grain treated with methylmercury to kill fungus) or from foods that contain toxic levels of methylmercury (as in some fish, wild game, and marine mammals). Mothers who are exposed to methylmercury and breast-feed their infant may also expose the child through the milk. The effects on the infant may be subtle or more pronounced, depending on the amount to which the fetus or young child was exposed. In cases in which the exposure was relatively small, some effects might not be apparent, such as small decreases in IQ or effects on the brain that may only be determined by the use of very sensitive neuropsychological testing. In instances in which the exposure is great, the effects may be more serious. In some such cases of mercury exposure involving serious exposure to the developing fetus, the effects are delayed. In such cases, the infant may be born apparently normal, but later show effects that may range from the infant being slower to reach developmental milestones, such as the age of first walking and talking, to more severe effects including brain damage with mental retardation, incoordination, and inability to move. Other severe effects observed in children whose mothers were exposed to very toxic levels of mercury during pregnancy include eventual blindness, involuntary muscle contractions and seizures, muscle weakness, and inability to speak. It is important to remember, however, that the severity of these effects depends upon the level of mercury exposure and the length of exposure. The very severe effects just mentioned were reported in large-scale poisoning instances in which pregnant and nursing women were exposed to extremely high levels of methylmercury in contaminated grain used to make bread (in Iraq) or seafood (in Japan) sold to the general population.

For children after birth only exposed to small amounts the effects on the nervous system do not resemble lead exposure.

For similar exposure routes and forms of mercury, the harmful health effects seen in children are similar to the effects seen in adults. High exposure to mercury vapor causes lung, stomach, and intestinal damage and death due to respiratory failure in severe cases. These effects are similar to those seen in adult groups exposed to inhaled metallic mercury vapors at work.

Children who had been exposed to excessive amounts of mercurous chloride tablets for worms or mercurous chloride-containing powders for teething discomfort had increased heart rates and elevated blood pressure. Abnormal heart rhythms were also seen in children who had eaten grains contaminated with very high levels of methylmercury.

Other symptoms of poisonings in children who were treated with mercurous chloride for constipation, worms, or teething discomfort included swollen red gums, excessive salivation, weight loss, diarrhea and/or abdominal pain, and muscle twitching or cramping in the legs and/or arms. Kidney damage is very common after exposure to toxic levels of inorganic mercury. Metallic mercury or methylmercury that enters the body can also be converted to inorganic mercury and result in kidney damage.

Children who breathe metallic/elemental mercury vapors, eat foods or other substances containing phenylmercury or inorganic mercury salts, or use mercury-containing skin ointments for an extended period may develop a disorder known as acrodynia, or pink disease. Acrodynia can result in severe leg cramps; irritability; and abnormal redness of the skin, followed by peeling of the hands, nose, and soles of the feet. Itching, swelling, fever, fast heart rate, elevated blood pressure, excessive salivation or sweating, rashes, fretfulness, sleeplessness, and/or weakness may also be present. It was once believed that this syndrome occurred only in children, but recent reported cases in teenagers and adults have shown that they can also develop acrodynia.

More research is needed, no doubt. But the claims of neurotoxicity are frequently merged with the false claims made by the anti-vax speculators and these conclusions are not consistent with the data.


Darn, I guess there was a bit more to say about mercury. But that's all now, really.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

So my parents sent me a hard copy of this gem...

For good information on vaccines and autism, check out this gem: http://www.csicop.org/si/2007-06/novella.html

 

[jj]

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/pr/pr008-05.shtml
Which is why I like Wikipedia. For those people who can think it actually provides a pretty good springboard off of which to start doing research.

Only if you want to take a chance on being misled by the latest nutter who decided to write up something.