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200 plus oil

Dymanic said:
There seems to be a strong tendency to approach the issue from a standpoint of motives; specifically, other people's motives. Take a camera crew to any filling station in the US, and in five minutes you can have a clip of some Joe Sixpack quacking on about high fuel prices being all about the oil companies and the A-rabs as he pumps gallon after gallon of fuel into an enormous SUV. Try informing him and that neither OPEC nor the oil companies actually have total control over price, that the owner of the station he's buying gas from may be making little or no profit on the fuel at all (but rather from sales of candy bars and cigarettes inside), and that analysts do not presently see a significant shortage of oil on the market, and you'll likely meet with considerable resistance to those ideas. Joe Sixpack doesn't want to hear that he and millions of others just like him are at least as responsible for the rising prices as anyone. He wants his gas, and he wants it at a price he can afford, but it's not just that he wants that; he feels he has a right to it.
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Bingo.

I always hope that one of those idiot reporters is there when I am filling up, but it never happens. I suspect the conversation would go something like this:

IR (Idiot Reporter): What do you think about these gas prices?
Me: What about them?
IR: Do you think they're too high?
Me: Compared to what?
IR: Ummm....uhhhh...errrr...compared to last year?
Me: Well, lot's of things are more expensive than they were last year.
IR: Ummm....uhhhh...errrr...so you don't think they're too high?
Me: "Too high" implies that there is a "correct" price for gas. I can't offer an opinion on whether they are "too high", without knowing what the "correct" price is, or whether there even is one.
IR: Uhhhhhhhhhh.....Back to Roger in the studio
 
Hmm, if you are buying "gas" then you think the gas you get in your tank is worth more than the money you give over, so the price it actually low :)
 
Francesca R said:
Hmm, if you are buying "gas" then you think the gas you get in your tank is worth more than the money you give over, so the price it actually low :)
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Well, affordable, anyway. Whether or not it's "low" kind of depends on what you're comparing it to. Compared to six years ago? Hell no! Compared to what they're paying in the UK? Hell yes!
 
I was being slightly facetious, comparing the petrol to the amount of money it costs, and pointing out that if you would rather have the petrol than the money (because you buy it) then the price is lower than the value (to you) of the fuel :)
 
Francesca R said:
I was being slightly facetious, comparing the petrol to the amount of money it costs, and pointing out that if you would rather have the petrol than the money (because you buy it) then the price is lower than the value (to you) of the fuel :)
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Are you taking the wind out of my pedantary? Why you I oughtta... :D
 
I don’t understand why liberals aren’t elated over the news of high oil prices. This means less use of gas guzzlers. If you look at a demand curve, you see that if you want to limit the use of a commodity, than you should raise the price. Well it seems that high oil prices are having the effect of putting airliners and Hummer dealerships out of business. Therefore, people like Barak O’Bama should praise oil executives who supposedly make hundreds of millions at the expense of consumers.

High oil prices are the only cure for global warming. If gas costs 2.00$ per gallon, than people will use more of it.
 
skepticalbeliever said:
High oil prices are the only cure for global warming.
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High oil prices are an absolute disaster for global warming along with other environmental issues, because the higher those prices go, the more reliance there will be on even dirtier sources of energy, and the more economies suffer, the more difficult it will become to find support for environmental measures.
 
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Dymanic said:
High oil prices are an absolute disaster for global warming along with other environmental issues, because the higher those prices go, the more reliance there will be on even dirtier sources of energy, and the more economies suffer, the more difficult it will become to find support for environmental measures.
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Explain which types of dirtier sources of energy will be used. I'm no expert in this area, but it seems that people are beginning to use solar and wind power now as a result of high oil prices. If gas costs $ 2.00 per gallon, than there will be a lot more hummers and SUVs on the road. That is for certain.

Most people don’t care about the environment to the point where they will purchase a fuel efficient vehicle if there is no economic incentive. That I know for a fact.
 
skepticalbeliever said:
Explain which types of dirtier sources of energy will be used. I'm no expert in this area, but it seems that people are beginning to use solar and wind power now as a result of high oil prices. If gas costs $ 2.00 per gallon, than there will be a lot more hummers and SUVs on the road. That is for certain.

Most people don’t care about the environment to the point where they will purchase a fuel efficient vehicle if there is no economic incentive. That I know for a fact.
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Coal.

We have enough coal for about a century even if we process it into liquid fuels and "town gas" to replace oil and natural gas.

Coal itself is a useful fuel.

The process that makes liquid fuel pollutes hideously.

Town gas production makes coke as a byproduct, and that is almost pure carbon. It can be burned in powerplants and in steam locomotives and in steam ships. It also can be used in home heating directly in a coal furnace.

If we go back to doing that, CO2 levels will skyrocket, and the air in and around cities will be just hideously polluted.

And then there are tar sands and oil shales. The processes that make those into usable liquid fuels are also polluting, though again, both can be burned in their solid forms in a variety of ways.
 
skepticalbeliever said:
Explain which types of dirtier sources of energy will be used.
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BB has pointed out the first one that comes to mind: coal. It's also worth noting that oil itself gets dirtier as it gets more expensive. Petroleum refining is already the single greatest industrial consumer of energy in California. The cruder the crude, the more energy it takes to turn it into nice, clean gasoline -- and never mind what happens when you start using oil shales and tar sands (which is one of the things you do when you start running out of light sweet crude).

Most people don’t care about the environment to the point where they will purchase a fuel efficient vehicle if there is no economic incentive.
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I certainly don't disagree with that. Enthusiasm about environmental causes often tends to wane quite a bit at about the point where it starts looking like it may involve some serious changes in cherished lifestyles, and if you want to see just how little regard for those issues people can demonstrate, then really put the squeeze on them economically and see what happens then (which is precisely my point). But honestly, I don't think a lack of economic incentive is likely to be much of a problem. Mexico has peaked, Indonesia is dropping out of OPEC, and trade-in values on SUVs have tanked (so to speak). The party is over.

it seems that people are beginning to use solar and wind power now as a result of high oil prices.
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Industry accounts for about a third of the total energy used in the US, with the transportation sector a close second at 28%. Petroleum accounts for about 96% of that. I've seen solar powered cars, and while that strikes me as an idea with potential, it still needs a lot of work. A wind powered car sounds like an extremely cool idea. There's an Eastbound stretch of Interstate 10 between LA and Phoenix where that might actually work on some days. Hey, how about a wind powered Segway!
 
I've heard of something called 'green crude', an oil-substitute based on algae that can be refined in the same sort of refinery as regular oil is. It would absorb CO2 when made before releasing it when burned, so it would, on balance, contribute much less CO2 than burning oil does. Does anyone see a future for this stuff?
 
Mister Agenda said:
I've heard of something called 'green crude', an oil-substitute based on algae that can be refined in the same sort of refinery as regular oil is. It would absorb CO2 when made before releasing it when burned, so it would, on balance, contribute much less CO2 than burning oil does. Does anyone see a future for this stuff?
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Absolutely.

Especially as we genetically modify the algae to optimize the oil production.

It does not require arable land, and can be watered with sewage (in fact it would likely prefer that) and appears to have a large energy gain.

Were the USA a sane nation, we'd have a "Manhattan Project" doing JUST this right now.
 
Thanks! I see there's a thread on it now over in Science, no one seems to know of any specific barriers that would make it impractical, although we've been disappointed before.
 
some data from my backyard (Netherlands and Germany)

Netherlands The 2007 fuel tax was € 0.684 per litre or $ 3.5 per gallon. On top of that is 19% VAT over the entire fuel price, making the Dutch taxes one of the highest in the world.

Fuel taxes in Germany are €0.4704 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €0.6545 per litre for conventional unleaded petrol, plus Value Added Tax (19%) on the fuel itself and the Fuel Tax.

The strength of the Euro makes it a little easier for us. A large part of the price is taxes, but it was 72% of total price for tax in 2004, and now it is 61% tax in 2008.

countries and price/ gallon (data from cnn around in May 2008)

* 1. Bosnië-Herzegovina $10,86
* 2. Eritrea $9,58
* 3. Norway $8,73
* 4. United Kingdom $8,38
* 5. Netherlands $8,37
* 6. Monaco $8,31
* 7. Iceland $8,28
* 8. Belgium $8,22
* 9. France $8,07
* 10.Germany $7,86
* ...
* 111. United States $3.45

cheap (in dollars)

* 1. Venezuela 12 cents
* 2. Iran 40 cents
* 3. Saudi Arab 45 cents
* 4. Libya 50 cents
* 5. Swaziland 54 cents
* 6. Qatar 73 cents
* 7. Bahrein 81 cents
* 8. Egypt 89 cents
* 9. Kuwait 90 cents
* 10. Seychelles 98 cents

So Europe must be kicking and screaming right? No, mostly we drive smaller cars and have short distances in our tiny crowded countries.

Plus I know the tax money is used for my country to pay for roads but also education, health, pensions, social security. Most countries at the very top of the price list are also the happiest and safest countries in the world. It's the price we pay.
 
Blackadder said:
Plus I know the tax money is used for my country to pay for roads but also education, health, pensions, social security. Most countries at the very top of the price list are also the happiest and safest countries in the world. It's the price we pay.
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you just dont get it. There is no stopping oil. 150 oil is not the top thats the problem. i'll say like 400 to 500 will be the top. shipping crap from china dont work no more. our whole system is oil. 90 % of our job down the drain.
 
diggy70 said:
you just dont get it. There is no stopping oil. 150 oil is not the top thats the problem. i'll say like 400 to 500 will be the top. shipping crap from china dont work no more. our whole system is oil. 90 % of our job down the drain.
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It's down to about $127 a barrel now.

$400 or $500 is probably a bit unrealistic in the near future, given that at least one alternative exists to create a light sweet crude equivalent (so-called "green crude" - we've talked about it on here before) that probably costs less than that.

You get oil that expensive, and then the alternatives that are in place start to be more cost effective and take hold in the market. I'm sure the posters with more specific experience with energy markets can chime in on that point.
 
JonnyFive said:
It's down to about $127 a barrel now.

$400 or $500 is probably a bit unrealistic in the near future, given that at least one alternative exists to create a light sweet crude equivalent (so-called "green crude" - we've talked about it on here before) that probably costs less than that.

You get oil that expensive, and then the alternatives that are in place start to be more cost effective and take hold in the market. I'm sure the posters with more specific experience with energy markets can chime in on that point.
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Not an energy market guy, but I read somewhere that it costs about $180.00 currently to produce a barrel of green crude, so I imagine it would be marketable if oil hits $200.00 a barrel.
 
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