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The ethanol conspiracy

BenBurch

Gatekeeper of The Left
BenBurch
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Sep 27, 2007
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This is one I actually believe in, and is exemplified by recent radio ads from this bunch of liars; http://www.renewablefuelsnow.org/

They lie about every major point about corn ethanol and its impact upon global hunger.

They are well funded, have supplied substantial donations to those in power, have favorable tax breaks and subsidies, and are 100% wrong.

This is just a means of putting money in the hands of people who are NOT farmers by taking it out of our pockets.

And it does not do ANYTHING except increase the price of gasoline.

Yes, SOME ethanol, up to 10% as an additive to reduce emissions might be an OK idea in some seasons in some places where hydrocarbon smog is an issue, but E85? - A Pure "greenwash."
 
Yeah I hear a lot of their commercials on the radio here. Do you have any links to the counter arguments? I'm fairly ignorant on this subject.
 
I'd like to see more on the counter arguments myself. I know fuel economy is not as good on E85 as compared with regular gas. We really don't have E85 (or M85 for that matter) where I live (northeast US) so the point is moot for us.
 
[edited] Do you have any evidence of this charge?
Who are "those" in power?
We here in America are trying to become energy independent by any means possible. [edited].

Violation of Rule 12: “Attack the argument, not the arguer." Having your opinion, claim or argument challenged, doubted or dismissed is not attacking the arguer.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LibraryLady
 
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BenBurch said:
This is one I actually believe in, and is exemplified by recent radio ads from this bunch of liars; http://www.renewablefuelsnow.org/

They lie about every major point about corn ethanol and its impact upon global hunger.

They are well funded, have supplied substantial donations to those in power, have favorable tax breaks and subsidies, and are 100% wrong.

This is just a means of putting money in the hands of people who are NOT farmers by taking it out of our pockets.

And it does not do ANYTHING except increase the price of gasoline.

Yes, SOME ethanol, up to 10% as an additive to reduce emissions might be an OK idea in some seasons in some places where hydrocarbon smog is an issue, but E85? - A Pure "greenwash."
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The fact of the matter is someday we will run out of fossil fuel no matter what. There is not an unlimited supply. Therefore any and all competition to fossil fuel needs to be discouraged and stalled so that some can earn top dollar on that oil until the last drop is sucked from the earth. And they have the money to stall and discourage and have been for years. Bush came into office wanting to drill in Alaska and other protected areas. This week now that gasoline is over four dollars a gallon in the states he pushed through this…

http://www.adn.com/front/story/436545.html
Incidental' harm allowed to polar bears in oil exploration WASHINGTON - Less than a month after declaring polar bears a threatened species because of global warming, the Bush administration is allowing oil companies to affect them in small ways while exploring for oil and natural gas in the Chukchi Sea over the next five years.

If anyone questions this they will asked if they want to be paying ten dollars a gallon next year.
 
Profanz said:
The fact of the matter is someday we will run out of fossil fuel no matter what. There is not an unlimited supply. Therefore any and all competition to fossil fuel needs to be discouraged and stalled so that some can earn top dollar on that oil until the last drop is sucked from the earth. And they have the money to stall and discourage and have been for years. Bush came into office wanting to drill in Alaska and other protected areas. This week now that gasoline is over four dollars a gallon in the states he pushed through this…

http://www.adn.com/front/story/436545.html
Incidental' harm allowed to polar bears in oil exploration WASHINGTON - Less than a month after declaring polar bears a threatened species because of global warming, the Bush administration is allowing oil companies to affect them in small ways while exploring for oil and natural gas in the Chukchi Sea over the next five years.

If anyone questions this they will asked if they want to be paying ten dollars a gallon next year.
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Um......The same people (companies) distribute the E85. Do you understand supply and demand? (Obviously you don't if your against exploration)
 
Tweeter said:
Are you out of your MIND? Do you have any evidence of this charge?
Who are "those" in power?
We here in America are trying to become energy independent by any means possible. Take your money making conspiracy crap and shove it up your azz.
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You really need to study up on this. This kind of yelling makes you sound more a shill for the appropriate interests. No one with a smattering of chemical/physics knowledge is taken in by the claims for ethanol - and no one with very much knowledge of economics has much difficulty following the misleading statements from a large number of supposed specialists on that side of the problem. Ethanol FROM CORN is a very bad idea both chemically/physically and economically. Now, if we get the tech for making ethanol efficiently from grasses and related natural materials it may be some different.
 
I wouldn't go so far as to call it a conspiracy. People are trying to move away from oil and in principle, biofuels are a truly sustainable resource. Trouble is, I don't think people thought it through properly; there just isn't enough farmland on the planet for biofuels to be used as a serious replacement. As the knock-on effects on food prices and deforestation begin to bite, I can see them becoming very unpopular over the next few years.
 
Spud1k said:
I wouldn't go so far as to call it a conspiracy. People are trying to move away from oil and in principle, biofuels are a truly sustainable resource. Trouble is, I don't think people thought it through properly; there just isn't enough farmland on the planet for biofuels to be used as a serious replacement. As the knock-on effects on food prices and deforestation begin to bite, I can see them becoming very unpopular over the next few years.
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In the case of corn ethanol, though, it takes about 20% MORE oil energy than it produces in fuel ethanol.

Now, the department of agriculture says that it is a slight net gain, but only if you count using the byproduct of the mash as animal feed. And as was pointed out in a couple of the articles I linked in, that minor gain goes away if you have to transport either the corn or the feed byproduct very far.

Moreover, it appears that the byproduct feed is actually really toxic to the animals!

So, we;

1. Lose energy (oil companies have a win-win as they sell both the oil and the ethanol)

2. Poison cattle.

3. Starve the third world.

4. Increase the price of every product in the grocery from meat to bread because of corn diverted to this use and land moved from wheat and produce to corn for this use.
 
Actually down Here I have plenty of oil, hope the price rises, although I am working on a bio fuel, using waste to grow earth worms and turning them into bio gas and bio diesel.
I am thinking about Huff and Puffing my oil soon, so that it will produce a good source of income, tons of Oil leases in Kentucky with 70 percent of he oil still in the ground.

Only 30 percent of an oil resource can be produced at the present time, Huff and Puff raises that to 60 percent total production, still leaving 40% that is unreachable.

Corn will never work sorghum cane is however a very efficient fuel, high sugar content.

PS. the reason I am experimenting with earth worms is they eat waste, do not need sunlight of fertilizers, and the resulting castings make good fertilizers. It is a win win situation.
 
While I am a big supporter of Ethanol as a future fuel, I really am against the use of food crops to produce it. Richard Branson was looking into the ability to make cellulose based Ethanol, a technique that would allow ethanol to be made from the waste from crops greenwaste and woodpulp. This is a far better idea and far better for the enviroment.
 
PhantomWolf said:
While I am a big supporter of Ethanol as a future fuel, I really am against the use of food crops to produce it. Richard Branson was looking into the ability to make cellulose based Ethanol, a technique that would allow ethanol to be made from the waste from crops greenwaste and woodpulp. This is a far better idea and far better for the enviroment.
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Yes, my only gripe is CORN ethanol.

If we can make it from garbage, or if we can make biodiesel from pond scum, then the equations are much, much different - though attention still needs to be paid to transport costs and how those effect the ratio of fuel used to usable fuel delivered to end use.

My sense is that we need to move away from liquid fuels entirely in all applications where that is possible.

I believe that we can achieve a better energy density for vehicles with a flywheel storage device than with a battery, and much more cleanly, and I really wish we would investigate that in a serious fashion. (And if anybody WANTS to investigate that and has money; HIRE ME!)

-Ben
 
BenBurch said:
I believe that we can achieve a better energy density for vehicles with a flywheel storage device than with a battery, and much more cleanly, and I really wish we would investigate that in a serious fashion. (And if anybody WANTS to investigate that and has money; HIRE ME!)

-Ben
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Nah, I'd put my money on diesel/hy-bred running on bio-diesel. The new (and improving) diesels are clean and they give great economy in a package we are accustom to.

Just my $.02
 
DGM said:
Um......The same people (companies) distribute the E85. Do you understand supply and demand? (Obviously you don't if your against exploration)
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Oh yeah and they're all psyched about Ethanol for the future right? That's why they keep pushing for more exploration. They think they can find some untapped corn fields up in the Arctic. And is there not any gasoline in E85? And what kind of fuel is used to cook up the E85 or produce the electricity needed? How about all electric cars running on solar/wind produced electricity? Carter knew that oil was a dead end 35 years ago. But he was an idiot right? Fossil fuel is just what it sounds like. Older then the Stone Age. We could have should have moved on years ago.
 
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Profanz said:
Oh yeah and they're all psyched about Ethanol for the future right? That's why they keep pushing for more exploration. They think they can find some untapped corn fields up in the Arctic. And is there not any gasoline in E85? And what kind of fuel is used to cook up the E85 or produce the electricity needed? How about all electric cars running on solar/wind produced electricity? Carter knew that oil was a dead end 35 years ago. But he was an idiot right? Fossil fuel is just what it sounds like. Older then the Stone Age. We could have should have moved on years ago.
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You don't drive a car right? Who do think is going to distribute what ever fuel we use? Who has the infrastructure needed.

Electric would be nice but it's a long way off as far as feasibility for a society that likes to be spread out.

Did you read my $.02 above?

What's wrong with oil companies making money. You can invest in them and share the wealth.
 
A couple of guys in Australia have develped a hybrid engine petrol/hydrogen engine where the water is split into hydrogen by the car's own electrical system and then is mixed with the fuel in the combusion chamber resulting in more bang and between 20 and 40% better fuel economy. It'd be interesting to see if it would convert to a hybid Ethanol/hydrogen engine or even better a hybrid-hybrid using both an electric motor and a hybid Ethanol/hydrogen engine.
 
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