Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[Jonnyclueless]

Is this a bombs only theory or is it a bombs plus thermite theory? How big were these bombs? How were they detonated?

It's a "we don't have anything usable what so ever to back our theories, so we will work with parts of the most unreliable evidence and use it to try and dismiss all other evidence so we can then replace it with our completely baseless theory to further our political needs and psychological problems' theory.

 

[bio]

you forget that the planes severed through the entire shaft which means that the separate rail would also be severed through along with the cables. if this occured then yes, the counterweights could well have fallen upon the cars within the shaft below.

...

To be honest i dont really care if the counterwieghts fell or not because they cannot explain all the phenomena before the fireball arrived.

Q: how come Phillip Morelli heard the first explosion from above him and not right beside him at the shaft pit?



He tried to take the stairs up to the lobby from the B4 level. That does not explain the FIRST explosion he heard above him. Moreover he tried to take the stairs after the fireball arrived. I do not dispute the fact that debris fell. I am simply saying that it cannot account for all the phenomena that occured prior to the arrival of the fireball. See my post #288

Regarding elevators 6 and 7 - according to NIST they were inoperable on 9/11

QUOTE
Elevators 6A and 7A were out of service for modernization.
(NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

From this statement we can conclude that the elevator cars were parked in Basement 1, where they had their lowest elevator openings. This is also confirmed by NIST:

QUOTE
"The doors were blown off by the fireball that came down the elevator shaft and the elevators cars were burned. (Basement level of WTC 1)." (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)
----------------------

From where did the explosions come from?

 

[Norseman]

Regarding elevators 6 and 7 - according to NIST they were inoperable on 9/11

QUOTE
Elevators 6A and 7A were out of service for modernization.
(NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

From this statement we can conclude that the elevator cars were parked in Basement 1, where they had their lowest elevator openings. This is also confirmed by NIST:

QUOTE
"The doors were blown off by the fireball that came down the elevator shaft and the elevators cars were burned. (Basement level of WTC 1)." (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)
----------------------

From where did the explosions come from?

Why do you need to ask, you quoted the correct answer yourself? I have enlarged it in case you missed it.

 

[bio]

Please read the basic statement of your post 269.
quote:
It is quiet likely that the impact of for instance the counterweights could have destroyed the enclosure walls of the express elevator shaft opposite the freight elevator shaft down on B-4.

The fact is that the impact of objects from the aircraft crash zone is a very, very plausible and reasonable explanation of what the witnesses down in the basement levels experienced before the arrival of the jet fuel fireball. It was the jet fuel deflagration that caused all the damage down on B4, apart from any damage caused by falling objects inside the elevator shafts. This is well supported by all the available information.

 

[bio]

...

 

[LashL]

From this statement we can conclude that the elevator cars were parked in Basement 1, where they had their lowest elevator openings. This is also confirmed by NIST:

QUOTE
"The doors were blown off by the fireball that came down the elevator shaft and the elevators cars were burned. (Basement level of WTC 1)." (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

No, from this statement you cannot conclude that those particular elevator cars were parked at B1, and no, that was not "confirmed" by NIST.

 

[theauthor]

No, from this statement you most certainly cannot conclude that those particular elevator cars were parked at B1, and no, that most certainly was not confirmed by NIST.

Why have you removed the bit about internal and external doors?

 

[LashL]

Why have you removed the bit about internal and external doors?

For the same reason that I decided to remove the bit about "bio" cherry picking his/her alleged "quote" from the NIST report: I like to keep things simple for conspiracy fantasist simpletons, and take things one step at a time for them, as they are not very bright, they are easily distracted, and they are bound to go off on tangents if I don't keep it simple and stick to one point at a time.

Case in point: see your post, quoted herein.

 

[theauthor]

For the same reason that I decided to remove the bit about "bio" cherry picking his/her alleged "quote" from the NIST report: I like to keep things simple for conspiracy fantasist simpletons, and take things one step at a time for them, as they are not very bright, they are easily distracted, and they are bound to go off on tangents if I don't keep it simple and stick to one point at a time.

Case in point: see your post, quoted herein.

You mean you stated something then realised you had no evidence for it.

 

[LashL]

You mean you stated something then realised you had no evidence for it.

Um, no.

Try reading for comprehension next time. I realize that's a struggle for you, but seriously, give it a try.

Pay particular attention to this part:

I like to keep things simple for conspiracy fantasist simpletons, and take things one step at a time for them, as they are not very bright, they are easily distracted, and they are bound to go off on tangents if I don't keep it simple and stick to one point at a time.

and this part:

Case in point: see your post, quoted herein.

 

[bio]

No, from this statement you cannot conclude that those particular elevator cars were parked at B1, and no, that was not "confirmed" by NIST.

reference please.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

reference please.

LOL!

And while we're at it, I would like a reference to prove the notion that we can't assume a space beam was used to bring down the towers.

 

[bio]

LOL!

And while we're at it, I would like a reference to prove the notion that we can't assume a space beam was used to bring down the towers.

Is this your standard of "debunking" here?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Is that your standard of Wooing?

 

[thewholesoul]

No, from this statement you cannot conclude that those particular elevator cars were parked at B1, and no, that was not "confirmed" by NIST.

lashl the condition of the 6 7 elevators and their location in the lobby is confirmed by the testimony of Dave Bobbitt
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

so stop talking rubbish

 

[Jonnyclueless]

lashl the condition of the 6 7 elevators and their location in the lobby is confirmed by the testimony of Dave Bobbitt
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

so stop talking rubbish

Just because the elevator doors were blown out does not mean the elevator car was there.

 

[thewholesoul]

EVIDENCE: bombs in basement

The following is the standard of evidence required by Jonnyclueless. Now even when I will satisfy his standard of evidence, and I will, observe how his irrationality prevails!

Only an irrational person will, in the face of plain evidence, still believe in the impossible and the untrue.

Evidence would be something that can ONLY be caused by bombs, thus rulling out everything else.

The following is a list of phenomena witnessed in North Tower:

(a) Sound of explosion
(b) Smoke
(c) Glass blown out
(d) Building shaking
(e) Elevador door blown up
(f) Walls blown rubble
(g) 3+ consecutive walls blown down
(h) 300pound steel fire door crumbled up
(i) Steel beams blown apart
(j) Clothes blown off
(k) People running and screaming
(l) People thrown to the floor
(m) Skin burnt off
Body parts blown off
(o) Pile of dead bodies

All of the above ACTUALLY HAPPENED and can be found here: http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

1: The following are just some of the events that we know occurred before a fireball arrived in the basment (a) (b) (d) (e) (k) (l) (m). In post 288 and post 329 I dismissed falling debris, a fireball, and unignited jet fuel as possible explanations.

According to Clueless’s own standard (a) (b) (d) (e) (k) (l) (m) should be considered as EVIDENCE of bombs because I have ruled out all other causal explanations.

2: The following cannot possibly be explained by a fuel deflagration that only produces a maximum overpressure of 5psi (g) (h) (i) (o).

Again according to his own standard (g) (h) (i) (o) should be considered as EVIDENCE of bombs because bombs are the only possible causal explanation and everything else can be ruled out.

3: Needless to say that ALL (a) to (o) can be causally explained by a bomb

I predict Clueless will change his own standard of evidence because if he actually maintains his own standard of evidence logic demands that he accept the existence of bombs in the basement

 

[beachnut]

No bomb, just made up stuff by you. Sorry, you have not produced one person killed by a bomb. Darn; failure is yours. When will you find a source or evidence for your fantasy ideas?


... Never

You can not just post fantasy ideas and say it is so; wait, I was wrong; you can post fantasy ideas and say it is so, but you are still wrong. You lack evidence and some knowledge on this topic. Do you think more time will help; you have had over 6 years?

oops;

but he was knocked down by a fireball that roared down the elevator shaft. (http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower%3Awitnessaccounts%2Clobb)

A fireball? I thought you said bomb? Darn, your own sources cited say fireball, not bomb.

 

[bio]

Just because the elevator doors were blown out does not mean the elevator car was there.

How is this possible?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

The following is the standard of evidence required by Jonnyclueless. Now even when I will satisfy his standard of evidence, and I will, observe how his irrationality prevails!

Only an irrational person will, in the face of plain evidence, still believe in the impossible and the untrue.



The following is a list of phenomena witnessed in North Tower:

(a) Sound of explosion
(b) Smoke
(c) Glass blown out
(d) Building shaking
(e) Elevador door blown up
(f) Walls blown rubble
(g) 3+ consecutive walls blown down
(h) 300pound steel fire door crumbled up
(i) Steel beams blown apart
(j) Clothes blown off
(k) People running and screaming
(l) People thrown to the floor
(m) Skin burnt off
Body parts blown off
(o) Pile of dead bodies

All of the above ACTUALLY HAPPENED and can be found here: 911stories*googlepages*com/insidethenorthtower%3Awitnessaccounts%2Clobb


According to Clueless’s own standard (a) (b) (d) (e) (k) (l) (m) should be considered as EVIDENCE of bombs because I have ruled out all other causal explanations.

2: The following cannot possibly be explained by a fuel deflagration that only produces a maximum overpressure of 5psi (g) (h) (i) (o).

Again according to his own standard (g) (h) (i) (o) should be considered as EVIDENCE of bombs because bombs are the only possible causal explanation and everything else can be ruled out.

3: Needless to say that ALL (a) to (o) can be causally explained by a bomb

I predict Clueless will change his own standard of evidence because if he actually maintains his own standard of evidence logic demands that he accept the existence of bombs in the basement

TWS, I'm going to touch upon a few things here which aren't exclusive to the elevator shaft discussion but cover point which do have relevance inone form or another since you've brought up the list of criteria.

1: The following are just some of the events that we know occurred before a fireball arrived in the basment (a) (b) (d) (e) (k) (l) (m). In post 288 and post 329 I dismissed falling debris, a fireball, and unignited jet fuel as possible explanations.

-- For point (A)
Listen to these (You will have to add in all the 'dots' to the URL's as I cannot post any yet):

Here is what an electrical transformer sounds like when it explodes:
www*stupidcollege*com/items/Electric-Transformer-Explosion

Here is what STEEL sounds like when it collapses: 911myths*com/collapse2*rm


And bloody hell I thought I brought this up once, and you've not answered to it in the other thread:

Even bodies hitting the ground sounded like explosions.

“The sight was amazing. I was just totally awestruck. I reported to the command post, showed my ID and asked if I could be of use. They said "Absolutely. Stand off on the side with the other medical people.‟ I couldn't fight any fires because I did not have that kind of gear with me, but would have done it if asked."

“I decided to walk closer to the South Tower. I was about 100 ft from the South Tower looking up when the bodies started coming down. I counted 35. They were just piling up on the Marriott Marquis hotel. They were 10 to 15 thick piling up one after another. You could hear them hitting on the side streets. They were hitting cars, and there were lots of explosions.

“I have seen plenty of death in my life, and burned bodies and so forth, but this was incredible. As I was looking up, I saw a body coming down, hit a lamppost and explode like a paint ball. Its arms and legs got torn off and the head ripped off and bounced right by me.”

Source of quote:
september11*ceenews*com/ar/electric_broadway_electrical_supplys/

--Point (B): Have you ruled out electrical transformers as being culprits to this?

-- Point C & D
You have stated to me that there is no supporting evidence to support my claim that the torsion of the towers during the plane impacts contributed to some of the dame to the lobby windows, despite my providing a precedent that the flexibility of steel structures allow for movement when a horizontal force sufficient to shift the building is applied.

I provided the John Hancock tower in Boston as a precent to display that bad design could lead to major flexing, and subsequently claimsed that although the WTC were designed to take the wind loads into account, the planes struck with much greater force than wind loads. Not only that, the force applied by the planes was focused to a single region and then transferred to the base due the the tower's design restricting the movement to a certain degree.

I'd like to point out the following:

84th floor, as 175 hits. Brian Clark:
"It wasn't a huge explosion. It was something muffled, no flames, no smoke, but the room fell apart as the plane kind of torqued the building. Ceiling tiles fell from the ceiling, air conditioning ducts fell, door frames fell out of the wall. (Richard Bernstein: Out of the Blue. New York: Times Books, 2002. p. 222)"
--------------------------------------------------------

78th floor
"Kelly Reyher, AON Corporation: The elevator split at the seams, the floor blew up. You could just sort of look right through the corner of the elevator into the elevator shaft and it was just all fire.

So I was able to crawl out. And then when I crawled out you just saw an absolute scene of destruction. Across from me, because when you crawl out you're facing the other elevator bank, they were completely destroyed. There was fire just shooting out those. "Accounts From the South Tower" The New York Times, May 26, 2002"

-------------------------------------------------------

67th floor: blast from below
Tom Elliott: Then, as they reached the 70th floor, they heard an announcement: The building was secure. No one needed to evacuate.

One woman in the small group said to Elliott, "Do you want to believe them? Let's go!"

They had descended three more floors when United Airlines Flight 175 slammed into their own south tower like an arrow from a giant crossbow. It was 9:03 a.m.

Flight 175 had left Logan 15 minutes after American Flight 11. It was also bound for Los Angeles, carrying 56 passengers and nine crew.

Although its spectacularly televised impact was above Elliott, at first he and those around him thought an explosion had come from below. An incredible noise - he calls it an "exploding sound" - shook the building, and a tornado of hot air and smoke and ceiling tiles and bits of drywall came flying up the stairwell. **NOTE 1**

"In front of me, the wall split from the bottom up," he says.

In a flash of panic, people began fleeing higher into the building. Then a few men began working on the crowd, calming people down, saying that downstairs was the only way out.

As they descended, a few other survivors stumbled into the corridor. A construction painter, his white T-shirt covered in blood, was helped downstairs by others. But the stairwell was still far from jammed with evacuees.

Elliott assumed his was one of the final groups descending. They saw only two firemen going up. They told them there had been an explosion near the 60th floor. [It is unclear who says this]"

csmonitor*com/2001/0917/p1s1-usgn*html


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61st floor when 175 hits
Linda Raisch-Lopez
I reached the 61st floor when there was a tremendous explosion. The building swayed back and forth. I can't even describe the terror I felt as I was thrown into the wall. I screamed and screamed and screamed. A man grabbed me and held me until I calmed down. The lights flickered, there was white smoke everywhere and I saw that a large piece of concrete had fallen on the stairway landing. ...I knew it would collapse. It was inevitable. The building was vibrating and I ran faster and faster."

911digitalarchive*org/stories/details/9348

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------'

53rd floor
"Jack Alvo: I felt the impact of the explosion that I believed was at my feet. I heard the crashing glass around me as the building rocked. My hands began to shake and my knees buckled. I knew I could not stay where I was and I had to go lower. I made my way to the stairs, passing people along the way. I saw the horror and the fear in several faces as I went by them. I still believed the impact was at my feet and as I descended past floor 50 and floor 40 I was sure I was going to see disaster."
aish*com/societyWork/society/One_Mans_Escape*asp
----------
***NOTE 1***^^^^

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Below 44th floor on 175 impact
Joy Shepard: “When it hit, it just jolted the whole stairway. You could smell the jet fuel. A crack appeared in the wall. Smoke filled the stairwell. The skylight above us blew out of the building.” talkwisdom*blogspot*com/2006_09_01_archive*html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25th floor
"Eric S. Levine: Somewhere around the 25th floor, we began to smell jet fuel and a lot of it. I have asthma and it began to become a little difficult to breathe but by the 15th floor it became unbearable due to the amount of smoke that was now entering the stairwell.

news*bbc*co*uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/americas/2001/day_of_terror/eyewitness/7*stm


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25th floor on 175 impact
Am now holding onto our room's door... clinging to it as if my life depended on it... as the building was still swaying violently... I hear and see more "smaller" explosions....electricity was cut off...more debris... broken glasses... air gushing in... ceiling was slowly caving in...

e-pix*com/wtc/wtcacct*html

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South Tower lobby:
Firefighter Timothy Brown: "We finally set up -- prior to this I believe it was the west side of the core of the building there were elevators. Someone had come to me and said that there were people trapped in one of those elevators. So I ran around the corner, and the hoist way doors were open, but the elevator car was only showing about two feet at the top of the door. You could see all the legs of the people that were in the elevator. I would guess there were about eight people in the elevator. The elevator pit was on fire with the jet fuel. People were screaming in the elevator. They were getting smoked and cooked. There weren't a lot of firemen there at the time. I grabbed some of the Port Authority employees and asked them where the fire extinguishers were and told them to get as many fire extinguishers as they could so we could try and fight this fire. As they were doing that, firemen started showing up, and I started asking them to get big cans, let's try to put this fire out." --

hosted*ap*org/specials/interactives/_national/sept11_fdny_transcripts/9110458*PDF

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South Tower Lobby: gust from second plane impact blows NYPD officer out door

"Death also seemed imminent for 37-year-old Carol Paukner, as gusts created after a second plane rammed into the World Trade Center complex blew her out an exit of the South Tower. Latching on to a door, the New York City police officer hung half in and half out of the exit as bodies went flying past her. With one hand, she grabbed onto the leg of another man who was still alive. He reached out with his hand and she pulled herself in. They huddled in the corner of a building black with smoke and dust.
They thought they were going to die."

seldes*net/911/pressjournal_Sept2002*pdf

----------------------------------------------------------------------

South Tower Concourse
PAPD officer Will Jimeno: damage done to lower levels by flight 175 impact.
[Jimeno working at the PA Bus Terminal on 42nd St. got to WTC just before the 2nd plane hit]

"And, just then, it is like an earthquake when the plane hits the south building. ...when huge parts of the tower and shock waves come down into the plaza area, cracking all the cement. The whole concourse above us collapses. There are a lot of civilians all around, and I don't know what happens to them, but I think it has to be bad. I can see Liberty Street before me as I feel a ball of debris hit us. Now I see a huge fireball coming at us, and I yell, "Run! Run towards the freight elevator!" [Smith: The fire has come from the fuel that has poured down the elevator shafts.] Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002. p. 114

------------------------------------------------------------------------


"South tower basement, level unknown. James Barrett: didn't hear explosions, was unaware that anything was wrong.

"ABM Industries janitor James Barrett, who was on the 6 a.m. shift and cleaning a basement room a quarter-mile below where the first plane hit the North Tower, was in the dark [figuratively]. “I was in the building when both planes hit but I didn’t hear a thing,” said Barrett, who has spent 22 of his 39 years keeping the World Trade Center clean and operating smoothly.

...At the time of the disaster, more than 250 ABM employees were at work. One of these was Barrett, not far from where he remembers a terrorist bomb went off in 1993. This time, the blast was more than 200 yards overhead and he discovered the danger only by chance.

Because he didn’t have his cell phone with him, Barrett missed a frantic warning from his wife. He learned of the unfolding catastrophe only after he walked upstairs to the plaza level to get a broom and dustpan. He immediately ran into a fellow janitor who told him the towers were ablaze and it was time to flee. But before running for their lives, the two heard shouts behind a freight elevator, pried open the doors and lowered a ladder to three men [sic: there were two men in the elevator] who were up to their knees in rising water. Barrett then joined the rush for the exits as firefighters continued to pour in. Later, as Tower Two imploded with a roar and blinding cloud of smoke, dust and debris, Barrett began running to eventual safety."

abm*com/ilwwcm/resources/file/eb0189054765374/Alliance-911*pdf



You can find all of these quotes here, the same site you've been referring to:

911stories*googlepages*com/insidethesouthtower:eyewitnessaccounts

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Well gee... I'd say just looking at the time of the plane impact we've touched upon a good number of points that you brought up as criteria to support your explosives theory, and no less confirming my earlier point of the building receiving some of its damage just from being knocked out of center by the planes as well.

So lets' recap what all of those accounts cover:
(a) Sound of explosion
(b) Smoke
(c) Glass blown out
(d) Building shaking
(k) People running and screaming
(l) People thrown to the floor

-- Not to forget the various accounts of damage that were reported THROUGHOUT the interior of the building just from the impacts alone. The smoke can be explained by electrical shorts and malfunctioning light fixtures, etc.

-- Jet fuel certainly made it quite far down according to the witness accounts

-- the fireballs made it down to at least the lobby level

-- the building motion experienced in the shifting and torquing of the towers affected many floors BELOW the impact down to the lobby and concourse

-- Where people 'feel' as though they felt the origins of explosions doesn't mean that the explosion originated from other 'secondary devices'

-- Pertaining to the mass panic, it seems to me like the plane impacts were more than enough to keep people's attention, I'm sure falling elevators more than warrant panic... The mass panic is a weak point at best considering that the planes alone generated it.

--Piles of bodies... well hey... people were jumping out of windows from the upper floor, and landing outside, and not everybody managed to escape the elevators at the onset of the events, another weak case...

Really, I'd like an explanation... perhaps it fails to cover a few of your criteria, but the vast majority of them have explanations that contradict your assumption the the only possible source of these noises is explosives

I suggest you eliminate all of these before you come to a preconceived notion to bombs.
Thanks for playing, looking forward to your answers