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Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

The issue of how fuel could have made it to the Zone 1 shafts is fairly easy to resolve.

Here is the question that TWS' asked:



Now here is a 3d rendering of the towers elevator shafts.

[qimg]http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/ardoucette/WTC-Elevators-3d.jpg[/qimg]

Note that the plane's impact, from the NIST simulations, would have intersected and potentially dumped large quantities of fuel in the N, O and P sets of elevator shafts (N = Mid Low Rise, 6 elevators serving 78 and 87-93, O = Mid High Rise, 6 elevators serving 78 and 94-99, P = High Rise, 6 elevators serving 78 and 100-107)

The amount of fuel dumped into the building was far more than would have burned up during the initial fireball, ~ 10,000 gallons, with ~8,000 gallons on floors 93-97 (NIST NCSTAR 1-2 Table 7-5) and a lot of this fuel would have expended its momentum in the core area (NCSTAR 1-2 - Fig 7-8). Its no great stretch to presume that a thousand or so gallons of fuel may have gone down the local Zone 3 elevator shafts as well as the Express and Freight elevator shafts.

But, as the question is about the fuel in the Zone 3 shafts, the salient point is that regardless of which floors they served, the Zone 3 elevators all ran in shafts that terminated on the 78th floor.

Which could easily explain the transfer to the Zone 1 shafts.

There were the C bank of 8 massive (10,000 lb capacity) Express Shuttles running from the lobby to the 78th floor (with their lift equipment above on the 79th floor) and there were also 3 10,000 lb capacity InterZone shuttles running from the 78th floor to the 44th floor where they overlapped with the B bank of 8 10,000 lb capacity Express shuttles that went from the 44th floor to the Lobby.

Thus while these various express elevators don't share the same vertical shafts as the Zone 3 local elevators, it is quite logical to presume that when a thousand or more gallons of jet fuel hit the bottom of the local shafts on the 78th floor that several hundreds or more gallons of jet fuel, at least, is going to wash over and down one or more of these express shafts that share the 78th floor and DO go to the lobby.

Yes, it is possible and believable, especially in view of the fireballs that occurred. (I was wondering when you would finally post this information you had. :thumbsup: )

Thanks, adoucette. Excellent work on your part.
 
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The issue of how fuel could have made it to the Zone 1 shafts is fairly easy to resolve.

Here is the question that TWS' asked:



Now here is a 3d rendering of the towers elevator shafts.

[qimg]http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/ardoucette/WTC-Elevators-3d.jpg[/qimg]

Note that the plane's impact, from the NIST simulations, would have intersected and potentially dumped large quantities of fuel in the N, O and P sets of elevator shafts (N = Mid Low Rise, 6 elevators serving 78 and 87-93, O = Mid High Rise, 6 elevators serving 78 and 94-99, P = High Rise, 6 elevators serving 78 and 100-107)

The amount of fuel dumped into the building was far more than would have burned up during the initial fireball, ~ 10,000 gallons, with ~8,000 gallons on floors 93-97 (NIST NCSTAR 1-2 Table 7-5) and a lot of this fuel would have expended its momentum in the core area (NCSTAR 1-2 - Fig 7-8). Its no great stretch to presume that a thousand or so gallons of fuel may have gone down the local Zone 3 elevator shafts as well as the Express and Freight elevator shafts.

But, as the question is about the fuel in the Zone 3 shafts, the salient point is that regardless of which floors they served, the Zone 3 elevators all ran in shafts that terminated on the 78th floor.

Which could easily explain the transfer to the Zone 1 shafts.

There were the C bank of 8 massive (10,000 lb capacity) Express Shuttles running from the lobby to the 78th floor (with their lift equipment above on the 79th floor) and there were also 3 10,000 lb capacity InterZone shuttles running from the 78th floor to the 44th floor where they overlapped with the B bank of 8 10,000 lb capacity Express shuttles that went from the 44th floor to the Lobby.

Thus while these various express elevators don't share the same vertical shafts as the Zone 3 local elevators, it is quite logical to presume that when a thousand or more gallons of jet fuel hit the bottom of the local shafts on the 78th floor that several hundreds or more gallons of jet fuel, at least, is going to wash over and down one or more of these express shafts that share the 78th floor and DO go to the lobby.

But the problem is that the elevator pits of the Zone 3 local elevators are on Floor 77, and some even down to floor 76.

Take a look at the drawing "Zone3ElevationsBanksABCD" here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/table.html

And take a look at the corresponding floor core plans as well.

But there are some other scenarios as well.:)
 
Let's pretend for a second that we can't figure out how the fuel or fireballs got down the elevator shafts. Does that prove bombs were used?
 
There is no "official story". There is a generally accepted version of events

what a penatrating semantical argument

the official version of events is
is simple, straightforward, internally consistent, and relies on very few unknown entities.

ok, then answer my upcoming post.

Then there are theories such as yours that are needlessly complicated

there was a bomb in the basement. sounds real simple to me

and filled with ad hoc explanations that serve no purpose but to bolster your weak arguments.

all you do is talk...thats all

Any rational person would accept the first version over the second any day

well provide your REASONS then

regardless of your attempts to complicate the issue.

i am sorry my rational arguments that you are clearly unable to deal with complicate you

This "problem of resistance" relies on a belief that you understand the mechanics of the plane crash and subsequent side effects perfectly.

you failed to undertsand what the problem of resistence was.

YOUR fallacy is both a strawman (no one has argued that bombs had never been used in the building) and a non sequitur (it doesn't follow that if bombs were used in the building once, then they were used on 9/11).

at last, you make good point. i accept.

It is known that there was a plane crash at the tower on 9/11. Since a plane crash is a chaotic event that doesn't happen often, the behavior of a building that is struck by a plane is unpredictable, therefore it is irrational to say that certain physically plausible things CAN'T have happened. This is particularly true if your knowledge of the building's structure is incomplete. I'm willing to bet the farm that it is.

wrong. if you understood my argument in post 237 i am saying that the official version of events specifically in relaton to the burn injuries of Felipe David are impossible. so before you go betting your farm try understanding my argument first.

The bomb is an unnecessary entity. Period.

but if his burn injuries cannot POSSIBLY be explained by a fireball, jet fuel or falling debris then we must consider bombs as a possible cause for David's injuries.

Unless I'm mistaken, only two kinds of bombs create fireballs:

1. Fuel-air bombs, which would be useless inside a building
2. Movie pyrotechnics, which create fireballs because they look cool

Madrid train bombing produced a huge fireball, see http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=EssXKHQISm8
Which resulted in various injuries including burn injuries, read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15693992
 
This is silly. Firstly, neither jet fuel nor a fireball is in any way similar to a cannon ball .

only because you misunderstood my point. i was comparing the cannon ball with a counterweight not a fireball.

There are numerous paths that the fuel and fireballs could and would, therefore, take

according to NIST there are only three. 6 7 and 50

It's as though you think that fuel and fireballs could only travel downward in a couple of shafts that you imagine are hermetically sealed or something, and that is completely unrealistic.

yes fuel can only fall downwards in an elevator shaft

if that shaft is closed then it will require an explosion in order to exit that shaft. but the fuel required to create explosion will be consumed. and the plane only deposited the jet fuel once so there will not be a resupply of falling fuel.
 
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Why would they have to be? They're on their own rails and could have passed by easily. I don't see how there would be a requirement that they would have to damage the cars.

you forget that the planes severed through the entire shaft which means that the separate rail would also be severed through along with the cables. if this occured then yes, the counterweights could well have fallen upon the cars within the shaft below.

given that the elevator disaster in the Empire State building involving freefalling counterweights happened many years prior to the towers construction i would presume that the towers had some saftey measures to prevent a freefalling counterweight. can you confirm that no such safety measures existed?

To be honest i dont really care if the counterwieghts fell or not because they cannot explain all the phenomena before the fireball arrived.

Q: how come Phillip Morelli heard the first explosion from above him and not right beside him at the shaft pit?

A: Morelli tried to take the stairs up to the lobby of the North Tower, but they were blocked by fallen debris.

He tried to take the stairs up to the lobby from the B4 level. That does not explain the FIRST explosion he heard above him. Moreover he tried to take the stairs after the fireball arrived. I do not dispute the fact that debris fell. I am simply saying that it cannot account for all the phenomena that occured prior to the arrival of the fireball. See my post #288

the flimsy shaft walls are not going to contain anything of significant mass.

like a free falling elevator?

But go into greater detail. How does the falling debris take a horizontal turn?
 
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With respect to the antagonist, however, I have a feeling that expecting him to accept this continued refutation is simply not realistice. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

hey big mac, try refute my following post.

Next you responded to the following two questions i posed to DGM

but lets assume that the counterweight did fall. can you help me to answer the following questions:
- how come the cars 6 7 and 50 were not destroyed by the falling weight?
- how come Phillip Morelli heard the first explosion from above him and not right beside him at the shaft pit?

Counterweights travel in an entirely different space than the elevator itself. They pass beside each other. Otherwise you would require a shaft twice as high as the highest floor serviced. This is Not A Good Design.

I knew that already thats why i posted this link http://science.howstuffworks.com/elevator3.htm so people like you wouldnt try describe what i already knew. and no, the counter weights are not in a “entirely different space", they are in the SAME SHAFT.

And localizing loud sounds is difficult under the best of conditions.

I think a person can distinquish between a noise from above and a noise from below. the bottom line is the explosion heard by Morelli did not come from the elevator shaft. and falling debris cannot take horizontal turns.

When every witness on B1 says the explosion came from below, i tend to believe them…unless that it is you can provide some reasonable explanation which i seriousñly doubt you can.

Also it is not just a matter of “hearing” loud explosions: for example rodriguez claims the basment explosion pushed them upwards in the air” which is consistent with an explosion coming from below http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=wIZtqKiidlo moreover Phillip Morelli was thrown downwards to the floor which is consistent with hearing an explosion from above.

so citing difficulties in "localizing loud sounds" is a reductionsit and untimately inadequate approach

There were a great many loud things going on all at once, in a confined space. There are any number of explanations.

ok name them.

but let us just try and explain the FIRST basement explosion. i would be really happy to hear any explanation you have in that brilliant mind of yours.

so instead of answering my two relatively straighforward questions you dance around suggesting that you could possibly explain them but you never actually do. good job

I honestly think you need to work on this a whole lot longer before pretending to be knowledgeable in the subject.

You sound arrogant.

Why dont you use that big brain of yours and try refute my following post.

peace
 
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thewholesoul: debunking debunkers one bunk at a time

William Rodriguez: "How could a jetliner hit 90 floors above and burn a man's arms and face to a crisp in the basement below within seconds of impact?"

William was right and the following explains why.

[Plane impacts North Tower]

(1) Cables are severed + jet fuel is dispersed down shaft
(2) Car 50 falls approx. 17 floors taking approx. 10s to reach B1
(3) Jet fuel falls 93 floors taking approx. 30s to reach B1
(4) Car 50 was above Felipe David on B1 when he was burnt by an explosion below

Therefore, whatever caused the explosion below Felipe David could not possibly have been caused by jet fuel. (or descending fireball)

(1a) http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf(PDF pg. 160)

(1b) http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf (2.4)

(1c) http://911stories.googlepages.com/descriptionsofjetfueldispersioninthetowe

(2a) “Well, I was on my way from B-2 to 49th floor. And as I took off, it was amount it was a matter of seconds -- five, six, seven seconds” http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0110/06/lklw.00.html

(2b) “The emergency brakes caught after 15 or 16 floors” http://www.usatoday.com/life/sept11/2002-09-10-surivivor-griffiths_x.htm

(2c) Its hard to know exactly how long it took car 50 to reach B1. From Griffiths testimony we learn that the elevator ascended for 5-7 seconds. But let us only use the most generous estimation, that being 7 seconds. Freight elevators in the twin towers were gearless traction machines and could reach speeds of roughly 10 m/s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevator#Types_of_elevator_hoist_mechanisms car 50 then ascended 7 seconds at 10m/s thus it ascended approx 70m. Each floor is approx. 3.8m so 70m = approx. 18 floors. From Griffith’s testimony we learn that the elevator fell at least 15-16 floors before the emergency brakes caught. So that fits in nicely.

To my mind, car 50 ascended 18 floors. when the cables were cut it then free falled 15-16 floors before the emergency brakes caught and the car skidded a further 2-3 floors before terminating just below B1. So I would estimate that it took car 50 no more than 10 seconds to reach B1. I welcome anyone with precise calculations based on the information we already possess.

(3) Flight AA 11 impacted from 93rd to 98th floor. http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf(PDF pg. 160) 93 floors = 388m . Jet fuel falls 9.1m/s http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-07/962626446.Ph.r.html 388/9.1 = 43 seconds. Taking overpressure into consideration = 30 seconds.

(4a) Standing in front of the freight elevator on B1 Felipe David recalls:
The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below, dust was flying everywhere and all of a sudden it got real hot. I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned. I sat there for a couple of seconds on the floor and felt like I was going to die, saying to myself 'God, please give me strength
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb
A free-falling elevator car is audibly detectable. Felipe however did not hear the car falling towards him. That means that the cables were not cut yet from the impact of flight 11 and that car 50 was above him.

(4b) Walking beside freight elevator Phillip Morelli B4 recalls:
that's when I got blown. The impact of the explosion or whatever happened threw me to the floor. And that’s when everything started happenin'. It knocked me right to the floor. You didn't know what it was, you just assumed something fell over in the loading dock. Something very heavy, something very big. You don't know what happened then all of a sudden you just felt the floor movin' and you get up... the walls, you know now I'm hearing that the main freight car, the elevators, you know what I mean fell down so I was right near the main freight car so I assumed what that was. Then you heard that [the main feight car] comin' towards ya
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

We know that elevator car 50 did free fall down the freight elevator shaft so it seems very likely that Morelli’s assumption was correct. Given that the first explosion was heard below David and above Morelli and also given the behaviour of the building following the explosion in both David’s and Morelli’s testimony it seems reasonable to assume that they were in fact describing the same explosion.

Assuming then that it was the same explosion we know that car 50 was above David because Morelli heard the freight car falling for some time after the explosion had occured. Now the obvious reason David did not notice or report hearing a freight car falling after the explosion is because he was lying on the floor in extreme pain thinking he was going to die.

(4c) Because the occupants of car 50 did not receive burn injuries from intense heat it seems highly likely that car 50 was some distance above David and the explosion from below which produced the intense heat that burnt David.

(4d) In post #138, I argue that the testimony from Marlene Cruz suggests that the explosion she first heard came from below rather than above the freight elevator car 50. If this is true, coupled with the fact she did not receive burn injuries then this would further support the claim that car 50 was some distance above David at the time of the basment explosion.

[Conclusion]
According to the above argument the official fireball explanation and the unofficial JREF unignited jet fuel explanation must be rejected because they are simply NOT POSSIBLE because the jet fuel cannot physically descend the 90+ floors quick enough to cause an explaoion below car 50 before it reaches B1. This is essentially the problem implicit in william rodriguez's quotation above. The falling debris explanation by Norseman can also be dismissed for the simple reason that falling debirs does not burn peoples skin. so lets see it again:

[Plane impacts North Tower]

(1) Cables are severed + jet fuel is dispersed down shaft
(2) Car 50 falls approx. 17 floors taking approx. 10s to reach B1
(3) Jet fuel falls 93 floors taking approx. 30s to reach B1
(4) Car 50 was above Felipe David on B1 when he was burnt by an explosion below

Therefore, whatever caused the explosion below Felipe David could not possibly have been caused by jet fuel. (or descending fireball)

if anyone in this forum believes they can refute this argument please address the premises upon which the conclusion logically follows. That funk de fino is how debate works.

Bombs in the basment may be implausible to many in this room, but i will take implausible over impossible every single time. And so should any RATIONAL human being.

peace
 
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i have touched on that subject inprevious posts.

Touch on it again please. What need was there for bombs in the basement and what did they add to what happened that day? Were there bombs in the basement of both towers?

TWS said:
so too has swing dangler.

His posts tend to all be serious failures, please forgive me if I ignore them.

TWS said:
Yes it is.

Wrong. Failure to reply can mean numerous things. Just because someone fails to reply does not make your argument correct or mean your opponent agrees.

If you claimed you could read my mind, the fact that I did not reply or refute it does not make that claim correct. get it?

It would help your case immensely if you could just bring us some evidence instead of your twisted interpretation of witness testimonies and your speculation.
 
We know that elevator car 50 did free fall down the freight elevator shaft so it seems very likely that Morelli’s assumption was correct. Given that the first explosion was heard below David and above Morelli and also given the behaviour of the building following the explosion in both David’s and Morelli’s testimony it seems reasonable to assume that they were in fact describing the same explosion.

If I understand you correctly thewholesoul, this bomb explosion of yours now occurred on either B2 or B3. And your only evidence for this is that David Felipe believes that he heard an explosion below him. Do I have to remind you of Mike McQuaid and problems of correctly locating the source of a sound inside a building.

The account of Felipe David is entirely consistent with the sequence of events caused by Flight 11's impact into the building.

And where are all the witnesses describing the damage down on B2 and B3?

You are making extraordinary claims here thewholesoul, claims that need extraordinary evidence.
 
SO the only evidence of a bomb is simply someone heard an explosion? And I imagine thewholesoul wonders why people laugh and mock him.

Bombs which served absolutely no purpose in the collapse of the towers. I guess it was just for dramatic effect. Imagine the effort they went to to set off bombs at the precise time the planes impacted and only for show. Gosh, we're all impressed down here!
 
Bombs in the basement were used in the same way that spooky music is used in monster movies; it's all about effect, baby!
 
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It should also be noted that just because one heard an explosion from a certain direction, does not mean the explosion actually came from that direction. Especially in a building like that where the sound is traveling mostly through the material and not the air. Not to mention the low frequencies involved which are omni directional while the higher directional frequencies are blocked by the concrete and steel.

Soul's entire argument is based on major major assumptions. And then he uses those assumptions to simply inject one big speculation based on much MUCH less evidence than that which he is calling incorrect based on some assumptions.

In short, his argument is a joke.
 
If I understand you correctly thewholesoul, this bomb explosion of yours now occurred on either B2 or B3. And your only evidence for this is that David Felipe believes that he heard an explosion below him.

wrong.

Rodriguez and said Anthony Saltamachia, and presumably the 14 other occupants in that room would when asked reaffirm that an explosion came from below, somewhere in the mechanical room. these would all corroborate Felipe David's testimony.

several people in the B4 claim the explosion came from above such as Phillip Morelli, Hursley Lever, and Sanchez et cetera. which again further corroborate Felipe Davids testimony. and the testimony of Marlene Cruz seems to suggest that the explosion came from below also.

so yes i would say the bomb went off somewhere in the B2-3 basment. what we dont have unfortunately is any testimony from people in the B2 basement, all we have is testimony from Giambanco
I could see through the cracks we were between B-2 and B-3. We were both screaming and afraid. I remember seeing through the slot of the elevator and seeing other people running and screaming
Giambanco's testimony and the behaviour of people who were actually in B2-3 again reinforces Felipe's testimony.

smoke, burn victims, fireballs, running and screaming are all typical of an undergorund explosion; watch the video of the madrid train bomb and you will see all the above.

the bottom line is Norseman: i have eliminated through simple logic the possibility that this first explosion could have been caused by a fireball or jet fuel. the bottom line is you are unable to refute the premises upon which i arrived at this conclusion. but still you resist any alternative explanation that easily, easily explains the phenomena described in the basment prior to the arrival of the fireball.

i know it emans absolutely nothing to you that many people that day were convicned it was a bomb. granted that by no means proves it was a bomb but once we have eliminated any other possibility , and i have in post 329, then bombs must be considered.

Do I have to remind you of Mike McQuaid and problems of correctly locating the source of a sound inside a building.

Not to belittle Mike McQuaid but he was only one account. it would be very interesting to have further testimony from that particular floor. The level of corroboration in the basement level is quite another matter.

as i said to Mackey, it is not just a matter of hearing but also "feeling" an explosion. so when people feel the floor vibrating or pushing them upwards it tends to support their claim that the explosion came from below.

but when we take a second look at Mike McQuaids account and take it on face value who is to say that an explosion didn't occur in the mechanical room below him? explosions in the mechanical room were an ongoing theme that day and a detonation below could arguably be more noticable than a deflagration of 2-3psi a few floors above.

but let us even say you are right Norseman. let us assume the explosion felipe heard came from above. how do you propose that refutes my post 329? that fireball still has to pass car 50 undetected, right? perhaps you may wish to abandon the official explanation like many other sin this forum have already done and endorse the unignited jet fuel explanation, but then you will have to explain how it could arrive before the falling elevator in less than 10 secs from 90+floor. why dont you go and make that argument?

The account of Felipe David is entirely consistent with the sequence of events caused by Flight 11's impact into the building.

REALLY? seriously my friend how can you still cling onto that belief after reading post 329? how can you still hold onto that belief when you are unable to refute the premises in post 329? you know i also debate religious folk and you are diplaying the very same symptoms of denial when faced with simple logic.


post 329 argues that the fireball and jet fuel explanation are impossible, not improbable, unlikely, impossible. i am sorry that you find the conclusion of that psot disturbing and troubling but thats not my fault. and to argue that well maybe there is a chance Felipe was wrong and the explosion he heard came from above is hardly a rebuttal, is it?

this: the plane hit, fireball travelled down elevator shaft, felipe got bunt has be shown to be impossible because car 50 was above felipe when he felt the explosion below. besides: bomb in the basment exploded and burnt felipe is equally consistent.

moreover given the fact that felipe was burnt before the freball arrived to basement i am assuming that you have conceded and ruled out your previous explanation as falling debris as the cause of his injuries.

And where are all the witnesses describing the damage down on B2 and B3?.

i dont know. i asked the same question once. all we have is giambanco's testmony and screaming and running and such behaviour is entirely consistent with a bomb. furthermroe whatever caused them to behave in such a manner occured before the fireball arrived.

You are making extraordinary claims here thewholesoul, claims that need extraordinary evidence.

no i am not. i am making sober ordinary claims supported by reasoned logic and an objective appraisal of all testimony. even if i had a video camera in the basment that day which showed an explosive detonation you would still deny that there was a bomb in the basement.

as predicted you are either unable ior unwilling to tackle my argument in a logical format e.g. 2a is false because....x, y, z .

the truth is my conclusion follows from my premises and casting doubt upon the location of a sound (i.e. felipe could be wrong) reiterating your debunked conviction (i.e. the official story is consistent with felipe's injuries)
is hardly a rebuttal. but no disrespect Norseman, i dont expect a rebutall from anyone in this forum that is why i will be moving onto a new thread shortly.
 
JREF forum's quality

SO the only evidence of a bomb is simply someone heard an explosion?

wrong

And I imagine thewholesoul wonders why people laugh and mock him.

not when their name is Jonnyclueless

Bombs which served absolutely no purpose in the collapse of the towers.

although off topic i may address this point again

I guess it was just for dramatic effect.

keep guessing

Imagine the effort they went to to set off bombs at the precise time the planes impacted

truly an impossible and unimaginable feat

and only for show

bingo! you cracked it. why didnt i think of that?

Gosh, we're all impressed down here!

me too, you patently unable to refute the premises in my post 329.

Bombs in the basement were used in the same way that spooky music is used in monster movies; it's all about effect, baby!

another quality JREF forum response

It should also be noted that just because one heard an explosion from a certain direction, does not mean the explosion actually came from that direction.

is that a fact sherlock? so what about the [many] others...they are all wrong? what about the people in B2-3 running and screaming, i suppose that must have been the scary music in the movie, right?

Especially in a building like that where the sound is traveling mostly through the material and not the air.

so in other buildings sound travels mostly through air and not material?

Not to mention the low frequencies involved which are omni directional while the higher directional frequencies are blocked by the concrete and steel.

ooohhhhh

Soul's entire argument is based on major major assumptions.

what assumptions? that david heard the explosion from below? post 329 is not based on that. post 329 is based on the fact that a droplet of liquid takes 30 secs to fall 90+floors.

And then he uses those assumptions to simply inject one big speculation based on much MUCH less evidence than that which he is calling incorrect based on some assumptions.

bla bla bla yakedy smackedy

In short, his argument is a joke.

and you're the punch line
 
SO the only evidence of a bomb is simply someone heard an explosion? And I imagine thewholesoul wonders why people laugh and mock him.

Bombs which served absolutely no purpose in the collapse of the towers. I guess it was just for dramatic effect. Imagine the effort they went to to set off bombs at the precise time the planes impacted and only for show. Gosh, we're all impressed down here!

Yep. In order for their complicated theories to work, they have to make it more complicated.
Complication atop complication until you reach the absurd.
 
You keep saying that, and yet it's clearly not true. Falling debris can easily hit an obstruction and be deflected horizontally.

and i will keep saying it.

if you drop a counterweight it will not get deflected from a hollow elevator car - news flash - it will go right through it much like a cannon ball would.

even after falling 90+ floors the debris that did fall on car 50 was not heavy enough to penetrated the ceiling of the car. this means that the debris that fell was not particularly heavy. i agree that this debris would naturally be deflected but because it could not penetrate the ceiling of a hollow elevator car i seriously doubt it could have burst through an elevator shaft wall given the fact that most of its energy was expended upon impact with the elevator car.
 
Yep. In order for their complicated theories to work, they have to make it more complicated.
Complication atop complication until you reach the absurd.

BOMB-IN-BASEMENT ouch my head hurts even tpying those words

another quality JREF response!
 

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