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Thermate

peteweaver said:
Apollo, how did the planes crash into the buildings if they weren't hijacked ?
why crash planes into the buildings if they weren't enough to bring them down ?
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I don't believe that Apollo has claimed that they weren't.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Sorry ~enigma~ your estimate is way off, simply using contact heating on the surface of the steel and applying bottled oxygen or thermally degraded oxygen or even high pressure super heated steam with chemicals to dissolve the oxide scale would decrease the volume of thermite necessary.

I could probably do the job with 1/16 of that amount.

Until you know the device and the compounds used your only making rough uneducated guesses based on inaccurate data.
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Ok...1 kg of thermite will produce how much molten iron? Since there was no source of ignition other than plain ordinary fire, you can assume it is a stoichiometric mixture.
 
Apollo20 said:
I too am NOT suggesting that the destruction of WTC 1 & 2 was a controlled demolition, but I have to say that arguments that claim that professional CD companies dont use thermite are really quite weak. Professional CDers are not trying to hide what they are doing!

If I was plotting a clandestine CD of a prominent building I would try to be very creative! I would use something that was NOT obvious; quite possibly it would be something that had never been used before; something, as Max Photon would say, that was ambiguous ........ thermite, ammonium perchlorate, ..... whatever .....
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However, I would make it look and sound like something an Islamic terrorist would do. I would place some cadavers, for DNA evidence with TNT so something could be found to look like terrorists were purposely trying to demolish the towers. Using anything else doesn't fit the Islamic terrorist MO.
 
Apollo20 said:
If I was plotting a clandestine CD of a prominent building I would try to be very creative! I would use something that was NOT obvious; quite possibly it would be something that had never been used before; something, as Max Photon would say, that was ambiguous ........ thermite, ammonium perchlorate, ..... whatever .....
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I can't speak for the NWO, but I wouldn't. Logistics of rigging up the building and concealing the flare effects aside, incendiaries would almost certainly go off prematurely when hit with a fuel-laden aeroplane.
 
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Apollo20 said:
I too am NOT suggesting that the destruction of WTC 1 & 2 was a controlled demolition, but I have to say that arguments that claim that professional CD companies dont use thermite are really quite weak. Professional CDers are not trying to hide what they are doing!

If I was plotting a clandestine CD of a prominent building I would try to be very creative! I would use something that was NOT obvious; quite possibly it would be something that had never been used before; something, as Max Photon would say, that was ambiguous ........ thermite, ammonium perchlorate, ..... whatever .....
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I would have simply welded the beams solid, and filled them with an expandable corrosive gas and oxygen.
That would let the fires destroy the structure of the beams by heating them and weaken the welds though gaseous expansion once the beams became plastic from the inside making it seem like weld failure do to impact and fire damage.

Of course you would have to place the impact point above where the beams are hollow, to prevent release of the gasses before the damage became critical.

That and place a lot of fuel materials in the building to insure that the heat would be sufficient to do the job, then I would hire a bunch of PhD and young under educated high schoolers, or collage drop outs, to do an independent investigation of the job knowing full well that it was a perfect scheme as long as only I and GWB, knew what I was doing!

No offense meant to any PhD here of course, or to any PhD doing honest and Respected work anywhere in the world, Just wanted to point out that even a PhD does not make one smart enough to figure out every thing the simplest Ideas sometimes work the best, and are easiest to accomplish.
I mean you have hollow steel beams seal them and your can safely place inside anything you wish.

The CD theory is a theory contently trying to fit the evidence, not evidence that fits in with the theory.
 
~enigma~ said:
Ok...1 kg of thermite will produce how much molten iron? Since there was no source of ignition other than plain ordinary fire, you can assume it is a stoichiometric mixture.
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How much acetylene gas does it take to produce a ton of molten iron oxide?

Answer, that depends on how much oxygen is applied and at what pressure the oxygen is applied, after the steel or iron has reached ignition temperature.

I cut though a 4 inch by 1/2 inch plate the other day 1/4 of the way though I ran out of acetylene in the oxyacetylene torch, however I did not stop putting out the oxygen to the torch head and it continued burning the steel.

Thermite can very quickly bring steel to its ignition temperature, then if oxygen is applied you no longer need the thermite! Because the steel produces energy as it oxidizes, and keeps the reaction going.

The question is what devices and compounds can be used in conjunction with the thermite?
With out knowing the combination and devices all you can make is an uninformative guesstimate.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
How much acetylene gas does it take to produce a ton of molten iron oxide?

Answer, that depends on how much oxygen is applied and at what pressure the oxygen is applied, after the steel or iron has reached ignition temperature.

I cut though a 4 inch by 1/2 inch plate the other day 1/4 of the way though I ran out of acetylene in the oxyacetylene torch, however I did not stop putting out the oxygen to the torch head and it continued burning the steel.

Thermite can very quickly bring steel to its ignition temperature, then if oxygen is applied you no longer need the thermite! Because the steel produces energy as it oxidizes, and keeps the reaction going.

The question is what devices and compounds can be used in conjunction with the thermite?
With out knowing the combination and devices all you can make is an uninformative guesstimate.
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Are we talking about Acetlyene?
 
~enigma~ said:
Are we talking about Acetlyene?
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No we are talking about steel cutting, that is dependent on reaching the ignition temperature of steel 980c-1365c, and applying oxygen.
It does not matter if the fuel is Aluminum or Acetylene the same principals are involved once the ignition temperature is reached the oxidation of steel at high temperature will continue until the oxidant is depleted.
That is why simple estimates will not work, you have no idea what devices, oxidants, or Chemistry were used.

Thermite will not cut the world trade center steel , so it is a non issue, a thermite initiated oxygen cutting device will cut steel easily so it is the only possible subject worthy of discussion.

Without knowing the operational parameters of such devices simply giving a raw estimation, well it makes you look like your only interested in debunking not interested in the truth or science at all.
I do not believe that is what your trying to do ~enigma~
I believe your interested in the truth and the science, possibly even more than I am.
I just hope I am not wrong about that, the best counter to the CTer argument is always done with the truth.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
No we are talking about steel cutting
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Maybe that is what you are trying to do now but I suggest you reread the subject of this thread and then reread what exactly I wrote to Apollo and then tell me this isn't about thermite. I understand you want to protect your "hero" but he is a big boy and doesn't need you to defend him.
 
~enigma~ said:
Maybe that is what you are trying to do now but I suggest you reread the subject of this thread and then reread what exactly I wrote to Apollo and then tell me this isn't about thermite. I understand you want to protect your "hero" but he is a big boy and doesn't need you to defend him.
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Maybe you should reread the topic of this thread ~enigma~.
tj15
Truthers, how did thermate cut through the vertical core columns?
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Debunking is about correcting misconceptions and myths with the actual truth ~enigma~.

Your Misconceptions and myths included ~enigma~!

This is not about Apollo20, who I consider a friend, and I once considered you a friend until now.
Sorry ~enigma~ I have no hero, I gave up hero worship a long time ago, along with religion, because it does no good.
Science and logic are my only guide.

You have no idea how the Thermite would have been placed what chemical combination it was, or how it was used, best you can do is a rough guesstimation based on limited and inaccurate data.
You seem not even to know the chemistry involved in steel cutting with thermite.
Your just as bad as the Cters, because you can not recognize your mistakes.

Your now on Ignore the first person here that I have personally chosen to ignore that is what really makes me sad that you would resort to tactics so low as to infer that my motives were to defend some one else, when I was just trying to make you see the error in proposing something of which you know absolutely nothing about.

Apollo20 is perfectly capable of defending himself, he does not need me to do so that was not my intention in this, to enlighten you to your own misunderstanding of what was being said and what the actual physics of cutting with thermite or thermate compounds involves!
 
Enigma:

Well, as I expected, you are obviously unable to defend your own calculation on the use of thermite to bring down the Twin Towers.

Congratulations Enigma! You have done a very good job of empowering the truthers!
 
I hate to stem the flow of vitriol, but surely we're all - in ~enigma~'s words - 'big boy'*, and don't need to break off from calculations to insult eachother.

* Or girls, but I'd have hated to break the rhythm of my sentence.
 
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Apollo20 said:
But remember, you will not find everything you need to know on the internet!
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How true. Thermite has also been used on occassion in arson cases, yet no indication of thermite was found by FDNY arson investigators. I know this because I know members of the FDNY in real life, do you?
 
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Alt+F4:

Well here we have a REAL ENIGMA, not some plastic cut-out persona who thinks it's a cool avatar....

So, you say you know of cases where thermite was used, BUT LEFT NO INDICATIONS of its presence. Then how in the h*ll was it concluded that it was used?
 
Does anyone have a link that shows what color aluminum is at 1000 degrees celsius?

Also, didn't MIT say that the molten metal flowing out of the South tower was aluminum (correct me if I'm wrong)?
 
Alt+F4 said:
How true. Thermite has also been used on occassion in arson cases, yet no indication of thermite was found by FDNY arson investigators. I know this because I know members of the FDNY in real life, do you?
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As I pointed out to others years ago how would you know thermite from accidental thermite reactions that would have occurred in the buildings?
The evidence of thermite might be impossible to find, in the rubble pile.
 
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