Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[Norseman]

Elevator Inside WTC 2 and not WTC 1

Throughout this thread the thewholesoule has posted three accounts that he believes are evidence of fireballs in elevator shafts that did not lead all the way up to the aircraft impact zone of WTC 1. Therefore jet fuel could not have entered these shafts, something he believes can be used to support his belief about bombs in the basement of WTC 1. But the three accounts does not support thewholesoul's point of view at all. I will cover the three accounts in separate posts for readability.

The next account thewholesoule has used is this one:

Firefighter Timothy Brown: We finally set up -- prior to this I believe it was the west side of the core of the building there were elevators. Someone had come to me and said that there were people trapped in one of those elevators. So I ran around the corner, and the hoist way doors were open, but the elevator car was only showing about two feet at the top of the door. You could see all the legs of the people that were in the elevator. I would guess there were about eight people in the elevator. The elevator pit was on fire with the jet fuel. People were screaming in the elevator. They were getting smoked and cooked. There weren't a lot of firemen there at the time. I grabbed some of the Port Authority employees and asked them where the fire extinguishers were and told them to get as many fire extinguishers as they could so we could try and fight this fire. As they were doing that, firemen started showing up, and I started asking them to get big cans, let's try to put this fire out.
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/sept11_fdny_transcripts/9110458.PDF

This quote thewholesoule found on Mark Roberts page together with other accounts from the WTC 1 lobby and basement levels. But it should have been on the next page where Mark Roberts (Gravy) has gathered witness accounts from inside WTC 2. Because we if we read the complete interview with Timothy Brown it is obvious that this took place inside WTC 2 and not inside WTC 1:

So I remember running across a lot of
debris. I didn't have on fire gear, so I
remember trying to avoid the fire as much as I
could. I ran into the doors of the Two World
Trade on the Liberty Street side.

Source
This is just a simple mistake on Marks Roberts's part. During the story Timothy Brown moves from WTC 7 to WTC 1 and then to WTC 2, so it is easy to miss the transition from one building to the next if you skim through the document looking for accounts of WTC 1 lobby damage.

On the Mark Roberts page with witness accounts from inside WTC 2 (linked above) we find an account that with great certainty must be from inside the same elevator Timothy Brown describes above:

Passenger elevator No. 13. South tower, 78th floor. 9:02 a.m.Alan Mann, 35, an executive vice president at Aon Corp., an insurance company, squeezed into an express elevator packed with 25 people evacuating the south tower. He was the last person in. The doors closed. The elevator descended normally for the first seconds of a ride to the ground floor that should have lasted 60 seconds. Then United Airlines Flight 175 crashed into the south tower, tearing through the elevator machine room on the 81st floor. That cut most cables to the express elevators. Elevator No. 13 began a free fall from 900 feet above ground
.............
Then, somebody yelled, "Oh my God, fire!" Burning jet fuel shot flames into the car, burning Mann's neck. He gasped for breath.
............
Mann put his feet into the hole and squeezed out feet first, crashing to the floor. He was barefoot and shirtless, his pants shredded.

The lobby was deserted. He walked through revolving doors and found four firefighters in the underground shopping mall. He brought them back to the elevator. "You need to help these people," he said.

Read the rest of the account here:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-young-usat_x.htm

In other words yet another account that does not support thewholesouls point of view. It did not happen inside WTC 1. It took place inside WTC 2 and it involved an elevator shaft that went all the way up to the aircraft impact zone of WTC 2. Yet another tragic story about burning jet fuel going down the elevator shafts from the crash zone.

 

[R.Mackey]

Good legwork; you should probably send a PM to Gravy and ask him to correct this minor oversight.

With respect to the antagonist, however, I have a feeling that expecting him to accept this continued refutation is simply not realistice. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

I tried to get thwwholesole to tell us which buildings the accounts were from so he might see where he went wrong, but he refused to address the question while going off on a rant about how he proved these things to be impossible.

 

[Norseman]

Good legwork; you should probably send a PM to Gravy and ask him to correct this minor oversight.

So I have done. And the relevant pages has been updated by Gravy accordingly.

 

[Norseman]

Throughout this thread the thewholesoule has posted three accounts that he believes are evidence of fireballs in elevator shafts that did not lead all the way up to the aircraft impact zone of WTC 1. Therefore jet fuel could not have entered these shafts, something he believes can be used to support his belief about bombs in the basement of WTC 1. But the three accounts does not support thewholesoul's point of view at all. I will cover the three accounts in separate posts for readability.

The third one is this story:

According to the accounts I have heard, Debbie was in the lobby waiting for an elevator when AA Flight 11 hit on 93. The jet fuel from the plane poured down the elevator shafts. Owing to the way the elevators are laid out, I don't understand how the fuel got into the elevator that she was waiting for. There are / (were) "Sky Lobbies" on 44 and on 78. So to go above those floors, you took an express elevator to the appropriate sky lobby and then transferred to a local elevator. The elevator machinery was located on the floors above the sky lobbies; only a very few shafts continued all the way up. Anyway, apparently she was in the lobby, the elevator shaftway doors opened and a fireball hit her with full force. She survived and was taken to a hospital with 90% burns. After lingering for about 50 days she died.
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/AlMasetti.html

This one is also found among the other accounts from the WTC 1 lobby and basement levels compiled by Mark Roberts:
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

If we read the original source we learn that it was written by a person who has never met or spoken with the victim, Debbie Merrick. A couple of weeks after 9/11 the writer was assigned to a cubicle that contained a computer that was registered to Debbie.

The writer has heard accounts that Debbie Merrick was in the lobby of WTC 1 waiting for an elevator to visit Credit Union, when she got burned. And that Debbie died about 50 days later. That is basically the hard facts in the account. The remainder is just speculation by the writer about how Debbie Merrick could have been burned, because the writer is obviously aware of the fact that Credit Union was located on the 39th floor in WTC 1, according to the tenants lists I have checked. This was a floor that was severed by local elevators that did not go beyond zone 1 in WTC 1. While the aircraft impact site was up in zone 3.

But the fact is that it did not matter what elevator they were waiting for inside the elevator hallway on the ground floor of WTC 1. It is obvious from all the accounts that the complete hallway became an inferno, when the jet fuel fireball burst out of the elevator shafts that went up to the impact zone. Even people entering through the doors from the street got burned when the fireball shot out of the elevator hallway entrance facing the street. See also the photo I linked in post #258 earlier in this thread.

In other words this is just a case of thewholesoule using speculation to support his own speculation. This post was hardly worth the effort.

 

[LashL]

Excellent work, Norseman.

 

[thewholesoul]

truth is indestructible!

It was refreshing to read Norseman’s post, obviously he’s back on form. I view Norseman as the last man standing in this room and when I debunk him, and I will, reason demands that you all seek an alternative explanation. I suggest the “bombs in the basement” hypothesis is a good place to start.

This post will focus on two issues:
1) the problem of resistence (fireballs never travel through path of most resistence)
2) the problem of testimony (no testimony supports Norseman’s position)

Norseman opened strong providing the basement floor plans which show doorways from the express elevator shaft. Being intellectually honest I am forced to concede this point, so I hereby withdraw the claim made in post #235 that a fireball descending shaft 6 and 7 had no access to the basement levels. Moreover because Norseman clearly established that a fireball would have had access to the basement levels he managed to alleviate the “problem of resistence” – but as I will argue below he certainly did not not solve it.

In the following link below there is a floorplan of B-4 . The yellow section is shaft 6 and 7 and the doorway is on the north face of this shaft pointing to the blue section which is the freight elevator shaft. http://911stories.googlepages.com/SublevelB4.jpg/SublevelB4-full.jpg

Any fireball that travelled down the 6 and 7 shaft would naturally emerge from the opening provided by the doorway – and continue, by and large, in that direction. Watch the following links below to visualize what I mean:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=33&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=33&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...33&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkNC...tics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92099&page=3


For arguments sake let us assign the side where the doorway on the elevator shaft was situated as the “north-side”; now any structural damage to the east, west, and especially the south-side would mean that the fireball blasted down the shaft walls before it caused the structural damage. This of course would violate the “problem of resistence”.

Unfortunately for Norseman, this is exactly what must have happened. Ed McCabe was situated in a room on the “south-side” in relation to the 6, 7 shaft. For a fireball to reach Ed McCabe and blow the door to the room he was in "off its hinges" it had to take the path of most resistence through the shaft wall, and a further 3 walls one of which might well have been masonary. See this link to visualize the pathway a fireball would have to take: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3206011&postcount=54

Falling debris could not explain Ed McCabes account either especially the production of “white smoke”.

Preumably in an attempt to remove these shaft walls so his position does not violate the “problem of resistence”, Norseman cites a falling “counterweight” as the means for doing so. For a nice moving illustration of a counterweight and how it works follow this link: http://science.howstuffworks.com/elevator3.htm No doubt when Norseman read the account of the damage done by the counterweight in the Empire State building he must have thought he found the holy grail.
Follow this link to read what it did: http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/archive01/9603-002.htm

Assuming the counterweight does all the damage Norseman supposes it did and the shaft walls in B-4 were all destroyed THEN surely there will be testimony of people “hearing” and “seeing” this happen?

Unfortunately for Norseman there is not. He does however attempt to use the testimony of Phillip Morelli in support of his position eventhough Morelli does not “see” any shaft walls being destroyed by falling debris, eventhough the explosion “heard” by Morelli came from ABOVE. Because the explosion heard by Morelli came from above we can safely rule out the counterweight as a possible explanation for the simple reason that falling objects do not take horizontal turns and normally fall starightdown until they hit the ground or in the case the shaft pit at B-4. In other words, if a counterweight really did fall Morelli would have heard the explosion from the B-4 shaft pit and seen the shaft walls being destroyed. This logic applies to all the falling debris.

The truth is the counterweight never reached the basement because unlike the Empire State Building, the safety measures actually worked in the Twin towers. We known this because car 50 stopped before it reached the shaft pit at B-6. so it doesn’t take too much of a leap of faith to assume that the safety measures also worked when the cables were cut in shaft 6, 7. Follow this link to read about safety measures in the event of cables being severed: http://science.howstuffworks.com/question730.htm
Following this link to read about the numerous safety measures specifically aimed at preventing counter-weight free falling: http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=WO2006082460&wo=2006082460&DISPLAY=CLAIMS

Further evidence the counterweight did not reach the basement is due to the extent of structural damage inflicted on elevator cars 50, 6 and 7, or should I say the lack thereof. A counterweight falling 90+floors would easily destroy these cars – but none were.

Finally, Norseman points to the testimony of Sanchez and Hursley to support the arrival of the fireball – which I accept. He fails to mention however that their testimony does not support his argument that the fireball came from the express elevator shaft. Obviously, the fireball Sanchez saw coming through the freight elevator was the same fireball that Griffith mentions in his testimony descending the freight elevator shaft.

In conclusion, Norseman’s hypothesis still does not satisfy the (1) “problem of resistence” and (2) “the problem from testimony”. When are you going to figure that out and concede?

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

The kitchen sink hypothesis: DEBUNKED

Aim:

All the things falling down the elevator shafts would hit the basement levels within 10 seconds after the aircraft crashed into the building. There is no need for any "magic fireball" or bombs to explain what happened before the jet fuel fireball arrived.

Side show:

please provide evidence that there was damage, explosions, etc. in the basement levels...prior to the arrival of the actual fireball.

Things to be explained prior to fireball:

1) Sound of explosion
2) Building and floor moving
3) Phillip Morelli thrown to ground
4) Damage to elevator car 50
5) Thick white smoke
6) Felipe David’s injuries.

Falling debris:

- Steel beams
- Aircraft parts
- Broken gypsum plates
- Bodies
- Concrete from the floors in the impact zone
- Elevator counterweights
- Etc.............

“etc”? I think you stuffed enough down the shaft Norseman, the only thing missing is the kitchen sink!

In my previous post I argued that the “counterweight” did not free fall to basement. I supported this argument with three reasons
(a) elevator cars 50, 6 and 7 were not destroyed
(b) no explosion was witnessed in B-4 shaft pit
(c) the safety measures worked

Norseman has no evidence that a counterweight fell to basement in the twin towers. He does have evidence that it fell in the Empire State Building. Just because the counterweight fell in one building does not prove it falls in all buildings.

Q: does the falling debirs explain what happened before the fireball arrived?

1)Sound of explosion: falling debris cannot explain why the explosion was heard above B4 and below B1 because falling debris cannot make horizontal turns and would naturally fall to the shaft pits located at B4 and B6.

2)Building and floor shaking: steel beams, aircraft parts, broken gypsum plates, bodies, concrete all falling together and impacting the shaft pit on B4 cannot explain why people on B1 felt the building shaking. Mike Mc Quaid was two floors below the impact and heard and felt nothing!

3)Morelli was thrown to ground: falling debris cannot explain this since it was an explosion “above” Morelli that threw him to the ground. And as stated earlier, faling debris naturally falls straight down until it reaches the pit.

4)Damage to elevator car 50: falling debris cannot explain this because the door was blown upwards (Cruz) and blown inwards (Griffith). Falling debris could explain if the door was blown downwards. (Norseman's dreams)

5)Thick white smoke: Norseman you said once that

evaporated/pyrolyzed jet fuel creates white smoke.

given that white smoke was witnessed by griffith and cruz before the jet fuel arrived, whats the next tune you plan on whistling? And no, falling debris cannot explain the production of white smoke.

6)Felipe David’s injuries: falling debirs does not burn people skin off.

Conclusion:
Norsemans “kitchen sink hypothesis” cannot explain even ONE of the things that happened before the fireball arrived so he needs to seek an alternative explanation.

Norseman’s post #269 avoids any effort to explain no. 2, 4, 5, and 6 above.

There is no need for any "magic fireball" or bombs to explain what happened before the jet fuel fireball arrived.

I have just debunked the “kitchen sink” hypothesis, I debunked the official fireball hypothesis, and I have debunked the JREF jet fuel hypothesis. in my next post i will outline the exact premises that debunk these hypothesis and I challenge any rational person to debate me on those premises. When you avoid this challenge please ask yourself why you are afraid to enter a rational debate in defence of your convictions.

peace

 

[Norseman]

How far down the shafts did the jet fuel fireballs go from the impact zone, thewholesoule? Or did it just magically stop before the basement levels so that you can keep your fantasy alive?

 

[aggle-rithm]

Norseman has no evidence that a counterweight fell to basement in the twin towers. He does have evidence that it fell in the Empire State Building. Just because the counterweight fell in one building does not prove it falls in all buildings.

But, we know that such a counterweight existed. We DON'T know that a bomb existed.

 

[thewholesoul]

How far down the shafts did the jet fuel fireballs go from the impact zone, thewholesoule? Or did it just magically stop before the basement levels so that you can keep your fantasy alive?

the question is how soon not how far.

i beleive that damage prior to fireball was caused by a something other than what the official story tell us. i beleive it was a bomb!

in my next post you will get a chance to address my points Norseman because i dont follow your statement above at all.

i just hope you will be intellectually honest with yourself when I force you through logic and reason to reconsider your position.

peace

 

[aggle-rithm]

2) the problem of testimony (no testimony supports Norseman’s position)

Here's one thing you should take into consideration when analyzing the eyewitness testimony:

Most of the testimony is from people who worked in the lower levels of a building where an explosive device was set off eight years earlier, doing heavy damage and killing a lot of people.

If you were working in such a place, and you heard unexpected loud noises and saw smoke and fire, what would be the first thing to pop into your head as to the cause? Don't you think this thought would color your perceptions of the events?

Eyewitness testimony is unreliable. As police investigators say, "Believe nothing that you hear and half of what you see."

 

[thewholesoul]

But, we know that such a counterweight existed. We DON'T know that a bomb existed.

is that really the best you can do?

i gave three reasons to support my argumnet. that means that in order to refute my conclusion you will have to refute the three reasons upon which that conclusion was based.

i never denied the existence of the counterweight i am simply saying there is no evidence that it fell to the B4 and B6 shaft pit.

so you are going to have to do a lot better than that - there are rules to argumentation and its high time you familiarise yourelf with them

peace

 

[aggle-rithm]

i beleive that damage prior to fireball was caused by a something other than what the official story tell us. i beleive it was a bomb!

Congratulations! You have convinced yourself of this!

Would you care to take a crack at convincing the rest of us? Hint: trying to find fault with the "official" story won't do it. You need to provide evidence that there was a bomb.

 

[aggle-rithm]

is that really the best you can do?

i gave three reasons to support my argumnet. that means that in order to refute my conclusion you will have to refute the three reasons upon which that conclusion was based.

i never denied the existence of the counterweight i am simply saying there is no evidence that it fell to the B4 and B6 shaft pit.

so you are going to have to do a lot better than that - there are rules to argumentation and its high time you familiarise yourelf with them

peace

I wasn't trying to refute each one of your points. That gets tedious after a while, when we've seen the same tired arguments over and over.

Nevertheless, addressing this one fallacy uncovers the major weakness of yours and every other truther's arguments: They rely heavily on unknown entities whose existence you are eager to accept as a given, but for which there is no evidence.

The hypothesis that a counterweight fell down the elevator shaft has zero unknown entities, because we know there was an elevator shaft, we know there was a counterweight, and we know there is such a thing as gravity.

The hypothesis that a bomb went off has one unknown entity: The bomb, for which there is no evidence.

 

[DGM]

Soul:
There are no safety stops or devices attached to the counter weight. If the cables break the car has arresters but the wieght does not. Thought you would want to know.

(I know this first hand)

 

[thewholesoul]

Here's one thing you should take into consideration when analyzing the eyewitness testimony:

Most of the testimony is from people who worked in the lower levels of a building where an explosive device was set off eight years earlier, doing heavy damage and killing a lot of people.

If you were working in such a place, and you heard unexpected loud noises and saw smoke and fire, what would be the first thing to pop into your head as to the cause? Don't you think this thought would color your perceptions of the events?

Eyewitness testimony is unreliable. As police investigators say, "Believe nothing that you hear and half of what you see."

funny, i bet if their testimony supported the official story you would nt be saying that.

you see casting doubt ion testimony is you last last resort becuase you have no rational argument against my other premises.

that pleases me

besides the conclusion that Norsemans position violates the problem of resistence was not only based on testimony but on objective facts.

for example the elevator shaft only had one door on the north side.
ed mc cabe was on the south side
he experienced explosion
for the official story to be true it MUST violate the problem of resistence.

i posted 4 links of backdraft that demonstrate for anyone who cared to watch that freballs follow the path of least resistence

so there are objective facts - independent of testimony - that prove Norseman wrong.

the truth is you cant debunk my argument because
the truth is my argument is the truth
and the official story has NO RATIONAL JUSTIFICATION
and any rational person reading this forum will immediately recgonise the abject failure of people like you in attempting to debunk my arguments

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

Soul:
There are no safety stops or devices attached to the counter weight. If the cables break the car has arresters but the wieght does not. Thought you would want to know.

(I know this first hand)

well then you have no excuse for your ignorance

read the follwoing is a link: http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/archive01/9603-002.htm
"The counterweight was up at the 80th floor. When the cables were cut, 10,000 lbs of steel started down, but luckily, the two governor cables were okay. The governor and safety caught the weight at the 76th floor and hung there."

you see the reason the counterweight fell in empire state building,according t the people who investigated it, is because the governor cable was severed. but not all counterwieghts fell because not all governor cables were severed.

i even posted a link that discusses these safety measures SPECIFICALLY TO PREVENT FREE FALL of COUNTER WEIGHTS.

i provided ojective facts like the lack of damage to the elevator cars etc

where is your evidence taht the counter weight fell?
show me the beef, not your personal incredulity

peace

 

[DGM]

Soul:
Do you understand that the "walls" surrounding the elevator shafts are made of drywall only (usually double 5/8"). Not overly substantial.

 

[DGM]

Soul:
Where are the "governor" and "safety" cables attached? (hint: to the car) The article you quoted refers to the motor lift cables.

Ignorant.