Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[johnny karate]

What I've asked multiple times is for you to actually provide evidence to support your claims. You keep referring to this testimony as evidence. Now all you have to do is provide it.

If testimony exists to support your "magic fireball" theory, please provide quotes and links to said testimony.

Bump for thewholesoul.

 

[LashL]

A major problem for your new modified theory is revealed by the following quote:
(NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p32 PDF) “We have two elevators serving only particular floors, beginning from basement level 1, Car 6 and 7. Though their lowest elevator opening was in basement level 1, their shafts went as deep as basement level 4”.

Page 32 pdf of NCSTAR 1-7 is "intentionally left blank" and the numbered page 32 of the document (page 70 pdf) does not contain the above quote. Can you please source this quote?

 

[thewholesoul]

we all make mistakes LASHL

Page 32 pdf of NCSTAR 1-7 is "intentionally left blank" and the numbered page 32 of the document (page 70 pdf) does not contain the above quote. Can you please source this quote?

your right my friend i slipped up

the NIST quote contains the following information

In addition to the passenger elevators, there were seven freight elevators in each tower; most served a particular zone, while Car 50 served every floor.
• Car #5: B1-5, 6, 9-40, 44
• Car #6: B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107 (Dual-use express, see below)
[…]
There were two express elevators (#6 and #7) to Windows on the World (and related conference rooms and banquet facilities) in WTC 1 and two to the observation deck in WTC 2. There were five local elevators in each building: three that brought people from the subterranean levels to the lobby, one that ran between floors 106 and 110, and one that ran between floors 43 and 44, serving the cafeteria from the skylobby. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation requirements.

from this information and floorplans of shaft continuity seen here: http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts and here http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8195/wtcbasement011sublevelswg5.jpg we can conclude that the shft of 6 and 7 did not pass beyond B-4.

from Page 32 pdf of NCSTAR 1-7 outlined above we learn that 6 and 7 were express elevators and that they did not serve the basement levels meaning that there was no doorways.

so my mistake was i posting my conclusion based from the NIST pages i quoted. my mistake and i apologise.



but getting back on theme

you care to tell me how a fireball or jet fuel could pass car 50 in less than 15 seconds?

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

Debunkers are NEVER wrong

Seems to me that the "explosions" in the basement would have been the shock wave from the plane impact traveling through the structure and to the foundation of the building.

do you think that the shock wave generated from the impact would increase or decrease over time and distance from the impact zone? if you figure out this much then you should realise the absurdity of your suggestion.

You would hear the impact from above later. The fireball would also occur later as well.

look up the testimony of Mike McQuaid

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

your right my debunking friend just keep posting it

 

[thewholesoul]

when talking about fireballs in elevator shafts, pls also mention the elevatorshaft number so we can see if it was possible. cause most elevator shafts did not run from sublevels or basement till top or impact area.

sure why would they do that when they cant even explain shaft to shaft transfer of jet fuel.

debunkers prefer to keep it nice and vague and obscure

i am still waiting for a rational response. i debunked fireball down freight shaft and express shaft. i debunked jet fuel down freight shaft. debunkers have no explanation left, or if they do i am waiting for it.

if they are unable to provide a rational explanation or repsonse to my debunking i am moving on to debate tower 7.

 

[thewholesoul]

i shot the sheriff

Soul:
What do you plan to do with your "smoking gun"?

the inability of anyone in this forum to counter it is sufficient for me

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

What a tour de force in word twisting far, far beyond what your sources warrant, thewholesoul. I'll see if I get around to comment on some of it during the weekend. But that I will only do for the benefit of the lurkers and new readers who might stumble across this thread in the future.

calling the kettle black i see.

you butchered the testimony of Marlene Cruz
- you ignored the sequence of events
- you conflated falling debris with explosions
- you even inserted and bolded the word "oil" which she never even said http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

so i dont think you are in the position to lecture me on word twisting when you practically invent your own!!

when you respond my friend
- just quote me the sentence from NIST where it states that the express
elevator had doorways below B-1.
- show a video of a fireball travelling through path of most resistence
- quote me some testimony of a fireball coming from express shaft below B-1

peace

 

[LashL]

from this information and floorplans of shaft continuity seen here: http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts and here http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8195/wtcbasement011sublevelswg5.jpg we can conclude that the shft of 6 and 7 did not pass beyond B-4.

from Page 32 pdf of NCSTAR 1-7 outlined above we learn that 6 and 7 were express elevators and that they did not serve the basement levels meaning that there was no doorways.

Again, page 32 pdf is "intentionally left blank" and page 70 (numbered 32 in the actual document) does not say that. You might have meant to reference page 72 pdf (p. 34 in the document) but it also does not say that.

In any event, I do not think that you can conclude that there were no doorways on the sub basement levels to the 6 and 7 hoistways. I think that it's fair enough to conclude that there were no elevator exit doors on those floors which were not served by those particular elevators, but I don't think that you can conclude that there were no man doors for access to the bottom of the hoistways and to the elevator pits.

so my mistake was i posting my conclusion based from the NIST pages i quoted. my mistake and i apologise.

No worries.

but getting back on theme

you care to tell me how a fireball or jet fuel could pass car 50 in less than 15 seconds?

While I do not see any impediment to fireballs and/or jet fuel doing so, where does the 15 second time frame come from?

 

[thewholesoul]

What I've asked multiple times is for you to actually provide evidence to support your claims. You keep referring to this testimony as evidence. Now all you have to do is provide it.

If testimony exists to support your "magic fireball" theory, please provide quotes and links to said testimony.

Bump for thewholesoul.

look man i was going to ignore you but i am not that kind of person.

so i will try once again to explain your misunderstanding.

the first report of a fireball in descending freight elevator shaft towards basement is this “Seconds after they pulled her out, a ball of fire came down the shaft. They almost got killed." this testimony was from arturo Griffith

now i know we both agree that this event actually happened.

but then you say this "If testimony exists to support your "magic fireball" theory, please provide quotes and links to said testimony"

you will find all the quotes and testimony here http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

do you know why i call it the magic fireball theory? i call it that because i beleive that it doesnt exist. now because it doesnt exist you will not find any testimony of the "magic fireball" i.e. the fireball before the one mentioned above.

strangely you think that that counts for debunking me? when it is the offical story that advocates the "magic fireball" theory - NOT ME.

now what you do find in the testimony is references to explosions and "strcutrual damage". the official story claims that this damage was caused by a fireball. i argue that this damage was not caused by a fireball that this damage was done BEFORE the fireball menationed above in griffith's testimony reached the basement.

i hope that was clear enough my friend

but seriously if you ask the same question again i might not respond.

peace

 

[LashL]

sure why would they do that when they cant even explain shaft to shaft transfer of jet fuel.

I think that where you're going astray here is that you seem to think that each hoistway was in a separate "shaft" but they were not. This was discussed several pages ago. You would probably benefit from talking to people well versed on elevator operations in high rise buildings, and you would certainly benefit from talking to members of specialized high rise fire rescue teams, who can explain these things to you. You might also consider talking to elevator maintenance personnel in high rise buildings as they are also well versed in the differences between hoistways and "shafts" and can easily explain to you why you are wrong in your assumptions.

i debunked fireball down freight shaft and express shaft. i debunked jet fuel down freight shaft.

No, you have done no such thing. All you have done, in my view, is exhibit your lack of knowledge about elevator cars and their mechanics, high rise buildings, hoistways, and shafts.

if they are unable to provide a rational explanation or repsonse to my debunking i am moving on to debate tower 7.

It is poor form to blame others for your own lack of knowledge and your own failure of comprehension.

 

[thewholesoul]

In any event, I do not think that you can conclude that there were no doorways on the sub basement levels to the 6 and 7 hoistways. I think that it's fair enough to conclude that there were no elevator exit doors on those floors which were not served by those particular elevators, but I don't think that you can conclude that there were no man doors for access to the bottom of the hoistways and to the elevator pits.

its a valid point.

all i have is floorplans of shaft continuity that end in B4 for 6 and 7 here http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/4976/wtcelevatorsfigure4fh2.jpg.

and the quote from NIST that states that

There were five local elevators in each building: three brought people from the subterranean levels to the lobby, one that ran between floors 106 and 110, and one that ran between 43 and 44 (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p32 – PDF)

nowhere in NIST does it state that car 6 and 7 served sub basement floors. B1 is the lowest doorway.

however perhaps it had man doors to access the bottom of hoist way? perhaps not. your point is reasonable but i think you will need to provide more evidence.

if it is the case then my argumnet against norseman is admittedly weakened
but not refuted as i have other lines i could use. for instance i would imagine the man door, if any, would be located at B4. so his fireball still had to blast down shaft wall at b2 and thus acting contrary to how fireballs behave. and there is no testimony of people in b4 reporting a fireball coming through a man door.

While I do not see any impediment to fireballs and/or jet fuel doing so, where does the 15 second time frame come from?

i thoroughly debunked the magic fireball theory and the jet fuel theory.

the 15 seconds is a guestimate: we know that car 50 ascended for approx 7 seconds from B2. when the cables were cut it went into free fall for a few seconds. then the emergency breaks were applied which would naturally slow the elevator down until it finally stopped at B1-2. in fact 15 seconds is probably an overstatement. it could well have taken a lot less someting like 7 seconds?


the problem for you to explain is how jet fuel could travel down 90+floors to b1 quicker than car 50. i think its impossible. and i think when you think about it you will think the same as me

 

[thewholesoul]

lashl go debunk my post #237 - i dare you

I think that where you're going astray here is that you seem to think that each hoistway was in a separate "shaft" but they were not. This was discussed several pages ago. You would probably benefit from talking to people well versed on elevator operations in high rise buildings, and you would certainly benefit from talking to members of specialized high rise fire rescue teams, who can explain these things to you. You might also consider talking to elevator maintenance personnel in high rise buildings as they are also well versed in the differences between hoistways and "shafts" and can easily explain to you why you are wrong in your assumptions.

well since you talked with all these experts perhaps you can easily explain why i am wrong. specifically address my post 207 but i have others in this thread on shaft to shaft transfer of jet fuel.

with respect however your above rant is not an argumnet. your basically saying go talk to some experts and your falsly assuming of course, that they will agree with you!

look i can read floor plans and the shafts did not vertically go from basemnt to ceiling. this means that jet fuel had to pass horizontally at some point. go read my post #207 and if your interested in serious debate then address the points i made as opposed to "go talk to the experts" approach.

o yes, and one more thing, I CAN READ.

at the top of of each elevator bank, the machinery to lift the cabs occupied the next higher floor. from the next higher floor up to the bottom of the next elevator bank, there was no need for an elevator shaft" NIST NCSTAR 1-7 p32 PDF.

now ask yourself, what if people below this area with no shaft were incinerated from a fireball. how would you explain that to their family members? the official story hinges on fireballs travelling down shafts!!!!!! do you see the problem i have with acceoting the official story?

No, you have done no such thing. All you have done, in my view, is exhibit your lack of knowledge about elevator cars and their mechanics, high rise buildings, hoistways, and shafts.

so with all your knowledge on the subject why dont YOU go read my post#237 and try and debunk it. i BET a shiney penny you cant.

It is poor form to blame others for your own lack of knowledge and your own failure of comprehension.

what sort of rubbish are you talking?

listen this a forum for rational discourse not silly baseless conjecture. you already made that point 3 or more times in this one post alone.

since you obviously dont lack any knowledge why dont you go ahead read my post #237 and then come back to me champ.

until then your wasting my time and yours with these non productive opinions

 

[DC]

afaik only 3 elevator shaft runned from basement to impactzone.
and a jetfuel fireball is prolly not powerfull enough to destroy the basement like it was destroyed.

but the "debunkers" dont even go take a look at the blueprints. they just make stuff up and declare it a fact....

once again the "debunkers" claims dont have to be backedu by anything, when they specualte and make up things, they consider it hard facts.

laughable.

 

[johnny karate]

do you know why i call it the magic fireball theory? i call it that because i beleive that it doesnt exist. now because it doesnt exist you will not find any testimony of the "magic fireball" i.e. the fireball before the one mentioned above.

I fully understand your use of the term "magic fireball theory" and was merely using it as shorthand to describe the phenomenon you claim occurred (i.e. structural damage etc. to the basement levels that preceded the arrival of the fireball of which you have acknowledged the existence).

now what you do find in the testimony is references to explosions and "strcutrual damage". the official story claims that this damage was caused by a fireball. i argue that this damage was not caused by a fireball that this damage was done BEFORE the fireball menationed above in griffith's testimony reached the basement.

And this is exactly what I want proof of. You keep making this argument and treat it like it's accepted fact. You provide no evidence to back it up (i.e. the witness testimony you keep claiming supports it).

I see that you provided a link to a very long page of witness testimony and expect that to qualify. I'm sorry, but that is basically a step above the old Truther tactic of telling me to "do my research". Unacceptable.

I provided you with specific quotes with links to their original sources to bolster my arguments. I expect no less from you.

 

[Norseman]

Correction of Transcription

This is what Marlene Cruz, who was in the elevator with Arturo Griffith, said in an interview with NBC on September 13th 2001 from the hospital:

...all of a sudden I heard that explosion and the doors blew and the elevator dropped and there was smoke and fire, water, oil all over the place, debris, concrete, you name it just fell on top of us...

The interview with Marlene Cruz starts at 3:25 into the video.

The word oil should not be in the above quote, as pointed out by thewholesoule. This should be evident for everyone listening to the interview. The correct quote should therefore read:

...all of a sudden I heard that explosion and the doors blew and the elevator dropped and there was smoke and fire, water all over the place, debris, concrete, you name it just fell on top of us...

When I listened through the interview before I was going to transcribe the quote, I was sure she said "oil", while what she actually said was "all", which has a pronunciation close to the word "oil". But since we are discussing burning jet fuel here, it seemed quiet reasonable that she should mention "oil". But that was quit simply my mind jumping to conclusions. Unfortunately the belief that she said "oil" stuck, even though I listened through the interview several times to make sure that my transcription was correct, though I listened mostly to it in short bits as I transcribed it. It sure sounded right every time.

Here is the transcription Mark Roberts did, just to show that I did my own transcription.

All of a sudden I heard that explosion, and the doors blew, and the elevator dropped, and there was smoke, and fire, and water all over the place. Debris, concrete: you name it, just fell on top of us.

As the keen reader should notice, Mark Roberts has among other details used a different punctuation in his quote than I did. But I notice that even Mark has put in a word she never said, the bolded "and" before "water". Surly another trick of the mind since it looks very reasonable that there should be an "and" there, though she never said it. But this is of course an insignificant mistake compared with my mistake.

I have written many posts where I have read through the post several times before posting, just to discover after posting mistakes and missing words. And every time I read through the post my brain automatically filled in the blanks.

So let this just be a minor illustration of the main point of the New York times article I linked in my last post. Here it is again:
New York Times: Ideas & Trends; For Air Crash Detectives, Seeing Isn't Believing

 

[Russ_Dalton]

All the backdraft videos show atleast some sign of smoke, fire, soot etc.

Minutes after the first impact, firefighters arrive at the north tower lobby. The glass windows appear blown out, and the marble wall coverings blown off.
But interestingly no signs of smoke, fire, soot etc were visible in the lobby, unlike the backdraft videos.

Interesting!

Source-
Go to Google videos type - "9/11: North Tower lobby blown out"
Since I cant link the url yet.

 

[DGM]

All the backdraft videos show atleast some sign of smoke, fire, soot etc.

Minutes after the first impact, firefighters arrive at the north tower lobby. The glass windows appear blown out, and the marble wall coverings blown off.
But interestingly no signs of smoke, fire, soot etc were visible in the lobby, unlike the backdraft videos.

Interesting!

Source-
Go to Google videos type - "9/11: North Tower lobby blown out"
Since I cant link the url yet.

Welcome.

AND? Do you have something to add?

 

[Norseman]

All the backdraft videos show atleast some sign of smoke, fire, soot etc.

Minutes after the first impact, firefighters arrive at the north tower lobby. The glass windows appear blown out, and the marble wall coverings blown off.
But interestingly no signs of smoke, fire, soot etc were visible in the lobby, unlike the backdraft videos.

Interesting!

Source-
Go to Google videos type - "9/11: North Tower lobby blown out"
Since I cant link the url yet.

Welcome to the forum.

But I have to point out that you are ignoring countless of witness accounts of smoke and fire in the Lobby.

And this screen shot was posted by hard lines last year:

Here we see a poor quality screenshot taken from the east of the core, looking west.

It shows the confined area between the elevator banks inside the core of the WTC 1 lobby. Note the black sooted roof and walls a bit down the hallway. Also note the burned signpost standing just to the right of the turnstiles. The two elevator shafts of cars #50, #6 and #7 leading all the way up to the impact zone had their exit doors in the middle of this area.

ETA
Note that I do not exactly agree with the conclusions hard lines made in his post.

You will find numerous witness accounts here:
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Everyone knows they places bombs in the lower floors which served no other purpose then to create an explosion effect that might possibly foil the entire plot by exploding at the time of impact but causing absolutely no structural damage and contributing in no way to the collapse of the building.

How does that not make sense?

 

[thewholesoul]

And this is exactly what I want proof of. You keep making this argument and treat it like it's accepted fact. You provide no evidence to back it up (i.e. the witness testimony you keep claiming supports it).

I see that you provided a link to a very long page of witness testimony and expect that to qualify. I'm sorry, but that is basically a step above the old Truther tactic of telling me to "do my research". Unacceptable.

I provided you with specific quotes with links to their original sources to bolster my arguments. I expect no less from you.

go to the testimony of arturo griffith and explain what caused the thick white smoke he saw before the fireball. ask yourself what caused those explosions he was refering to? ask yourself what caused the structural damage to the elevator door?

go to felipe davids testimony. ask yourself what burned him and what caused the explosion he heard below

go to philip morelli's testimony. ask yourself what caused the explosion that threw him to the c¡ground and caused the walls to shaking and breaking up?

if your read their testimony you will have you proof of damage done to the basement before the fireball arrived.

peace