Crappy Cards vs Nice Cards

[DrugFreeAlcoholic]

I've been doing magic for about a year and a half now, and I've been practicing with cards I bought from Dollar Tree which are used casino cards. These cards are stubborn sometimes. They're hard to fan, and they stick together slightly making it hard to slip cards (but I can still do it just fine). (I'm using the term "slip cards" to avoid a certain magic term that might be revealing a secret).

They haven't failed me during a small show (mostly just gatherings with friends) yet, but I wonder if I should use high quality cards like Hoyle or Bicycle. Those cards are wonderful. I can fan them, slip them easily without worrying about cards sticking together, etc.

But a professional magican told me that I should be working with crappy cards anyway. Because when I go over to someone's house to perform, they will most likely hand me a deck of crappy quality cards. I always bring a deck of cards wherever I go, so I'll always work with the deck that I bring. Should I not worry about getting used to crappy cards and work only with Hoyle or Bicycle cards?

 

[NeilC]

Cards tend to have a limited period where they are good to use. When they are brand new they tend to be too slippy, when old too bent and sticky. I'd suggest buying cards you like the best and chucking them when they get too old. If Bicycles are common where you live then they are as good a choice as any. Also many trick cards come with Bike backs.

The pro has a point but if the pack you get handed is so bad you can't do basic sleights then you need some effects that don't rely on them

 

[Bob Klase]

They haven't failed me during a small show (mostly just gatherings with friends) yet, but I wonder if I should use high quality cards like Hoyle or Bicycle. Those cards are wonderful. I can fan them, slip them easily without worrying about cards sticking together, etc.

I'd suggest you use quality props no matter what you're doing.

But a professional magican told me that I should be working with crappy cards anyway. Because when I go over to someone's house to perform, they will most likely hand me a deck of crappy quality cards. I always bring a deck of cards wherever I go, so I'll always work with the deck that I bring. Should I not worry about getting used to crappy cards and work only with Hoyle or Bicycle cards?

I'll put that among the dumbest advice I've heard coming from a professional magician. With that reasoning, a doctor should never use a sharp scalpel for surgery because when he runs into an accident on the highway and has to do emergency surgery he'll most likely have to use a pocket knife.

If you always have a deck of cards then use it. If you're at someone's house and they give you a crappy deck of cards and ask if you can do something with it, you should have at least a couple tricks that can be done with crappy cards (there are thousands to pick from). If you can't, the impression will be that your cards are somehow special. But there's no reason you have to do the same tricks with their crappy cards that you'd do with your own.

Did you ask the "professional" if all the props he used were crappy for the same reason? Did you check the cards he was using to see if he was taking his own advice?

 

[Cain]

I'll put that among the dumbest advice I've heard coming from a professional magician. With that reasoning, a doctor should never use a sharp scalpel for surgery because when he runs into an accident on the highway and has to do emergency surgery he'll most likely have to use a pocket knife.

This is an unfair analogy. I do not think there is any expectation of a doctor performing surgery with household items. Your second paragraph explains why it is important to know how to use a borrowed deck. Harry Lorayne often boasts he ONLY uses a borrowed deck because you lose "40%" of the effect with your own.

DFA:
This past week has been uncommon for me because I did card magic with three different types of decks on three separate occasions. One was with used casino cards (Bees), which had the corners cut off; another was with cheap dollar store wannabe-Bees, and the third was with Uno cards. Of course I had my own cards with me. The most common brand I encounter is Bicycle, and before leaving I had noticed the girl who had the cheap WannaBees also had a pack of not-too used Bikes. She said she did not bring them out because the others were "brand new."

But a professional magican told me that I should be working with crappy cards anyway. Because when I go over to someone's house to perform, they will most likely hand me a deck of crappy quality cards. I always bring a deck of cards wherever I go, so I'll always work with the deck that I bring. Should I not worry about getting used to crappy cards and work only with Hoyle or Bicycle cards?

I think you should familiarize yourself with how different quality cards handle in new/good/bad condition, but why bother carrying around lousy cards? Or even practicing mostly with lousy cards? Your magician friend is right about possessing a skill-set that allows you to thrive under non-ideal circumstances, but why bother limiting yourself when those conditions are not present?... Unless it just so happens that you mostly perform in circumstances where you're given cheap, crappy cards.

I carry around regular blue/red Bikes for two reasons: 1) it's the most recognized brand; 2) The cards are decent.

 

[Bob Klase]

This is an unfair analogy. I do not think there is any expectation of a doctor performing surgery with household items.

I don't think it's unfair. It's extreme, but that's why it's an analogy and not an exact comparison. It's extreme because (like most analogies) that makes the point better than a weaker comparison. But there's no shortage of others that you might like better. Advice to a guitar player that he should learn and play a cheap crappy guitar because if he's at someone's house they might have a cheap crappy guitar they want him to play. Or advice to a piano player to learn, practice and play an out of tune piano because if you're at someone else's home and they want you to play something, it's highly likely that their piano will be out of tune.

Or we could just stick with card magic and extend the advice as given by the 'professional'- never bother learning any trick that can't be done with any deck in any condition because you might want to do that trick with a crappy borrowed deck and you won't be able to do it.

Regardless of how poor that analogy was or wasn't, the advice that prompted the analogy is bad advice.

Your second paragraph explains why it is important to know how to use a borrowed deck. Harry Lorayne often boasts he ONLY uses a borrowed deck because you lose "40%" of the effect with your own.

Even for Harry that would depend on the circumstances and the effect. I know that Harry doesn't ONLY use a borrowed deck in every situation- there are many situations where you can't borrow a deck. David Williamson, Tom Mullica, Jim Swain, Paul Cummins (and dozens of other 'name' magicians) often use their own cards (some rarely try to borrow a deck) and many of them would not agree with what you wrote about Lorayne's "40%" claim.

But the only relevant point is that you should have the ability to do something with a deck in almost any condition. With a really crappy borrowed deck you don't have to do your entire act, but you should be able to do a couple tricks.

 

[FM21.105]

I always carry around my own cards. They are normal bikes, and if there's someone in the audience who's skeptical, I let them inspect it. No need to borrow cards.

 

[Furi]

Although I'm do no tricks or 'owt like that, I do play a hell of a lot of crib and whist,

I find the most useful cards to handle shuffle and deal and generally move around, are reasonably battered Waddingtons Number one or other Linen based cards.

When I get a new pack I tend to abuse them for about an hour or so before going to the pub for a game sess (One hour of shuffling Dealing and flicking), as no-one like playing with a brand new slippy deck

 

[Cain]

Or we could just stick with card magic and extend the advice as given by the 'professional'- never bother learning any trick that can't be done with any deck in any condition because you might want to do that trick with a crappy borrowed deck and you won't be able to do it.

See, this is where I think you're being uncharitable. Naturally different advice is given to people at different stages in their development, and what this magician is alleged to have said is not among the "dumbest" thing I ever heard. I'm not sure where Lorayne's 40% figure comes from (I can guess), but the point seems true enough. It's often remarked that there's "no such thing as an impromptu card trick," at least if one brings their own cards. Using a borrowed deck just makes things so much stronger. Paul Cummins is best known for his From a Shuffled Deck in Use notes, and Swain (maybe you were the person quoting him) is quoted as saying a spectator should be allowed to shuffle and inspect the cards whenever she pleases, and each of those styles is consistent with that approach. Yes, yes, there is a significant difference, but it approaches the ideal of using something that's borrowed, which gets to the heart of magic. With magic the power is supposed to be in the performer, not the prop, so when you can play off some regular object completely impromptu, then the effect dramatically increases.

This could also be true for a musician. I have heard people say a trained virtuoso got more out of a borrowed instrument than what anyone thought possible. But again, with music there is an expectation that the performer uses the best, and a crappy performance is more forgivably excused. With magic a borrowed deck defeats one of the most common explanations.

How does the other old saying go? Produce a sandwich, and you have a good trick. Somebody says they're hungry and THEN you produce a sandwich... you have a miracle.

People are suspicious of cards in the context of magic, and they're doubly suspicious of people who carry around their own pack of cards to do magic, especially if you're just some dude. And that's not unreasonable.

But the only relevant point is that you should have the ability to do something with a deck in almost any condition. With a really crappy borrowed deck you don't have to do your entire act, but you should be able to do a couple tricks.

On this I whole-heartedly agree.

 

[Bob Klase]

See, this is where I think you're being uncharitable. Naturally different advice is given to people at different stages in their development, and what this magician is alleged to have said is not among the "dumbest" thing I ever heard.

I didn't say it was among the dumbest thing(s) I ever heard. I wrote that "among the dumbest advice I've heard coming from a professional magician". I've certainly heard a lot of things that are dumber- some even advice coming from self-proclaimed "professional magicians" who really aren't.

Different advice is also given to people with different goals. If your goal is to never perform except in situations where you can reasonably expect to borrow a deck, there will still be times when no one has a deck you can borrow. Some decks you'll borrow can't be used for anything that requires technical handling at all- decks that are 10 years old, dirty and dog-eared and twice as thick as a normal deck from all the liquids that have been spilled on it over the years. Limit yourself to only tricks that can be done with those decks and you'll have a limited repertoire.

Paul Cummins is best known for his From a Shuffled Deck in Use notes

Paul Cummins also does tricks that can't be done FASDIU. (Workingman's Wild Card is published in his FASDIU notes and it can't be done with a normal deck at all). And the fact that he's best known for FASDUI tricks doesn't mean he'd try to perform every trick he does using any crappy deck he's given. (Paul also does a lot of bar magic and I'm pretty sure he is rarely able to borrow a deck from the bar patrons.)

Swain (maybe you were the person quoting him) is quoted as saying a spectator should be allowed to shuffle and inspect the cards whenever she pleases, and each of those styles is consistent with that approach.

Perhaps true, but still not really pertinent. Swain does many tricks where the spectator couldn't shuffle the cards whenever they please, but he also knows how to handle situations to prevent that from appearing to be a problem.

Yes, yes, there is a significant difference, but it approaches the ideal of using something that's borrowed, which gets to the heart of magic. With magic the power is supposed to be in the performer, not the prop, so when you can play off some regular object completely impromptu, then the effect dramatically increases.

Still true, but it's not difficult to pass off a regular deck of cards as a regular deck of cards.

With magic a borrowed deck defeats one of the most common explanations.

All true. But none of it really addresses the point unless your point is that you should be able to perform every trick you do with a borrowed (crappy) deck. I'm fairly sure you've already agreed that's not the goal. But even then, there are times when if you alway practice with a crappy deck you're going to be in trouble if you borrow a new deck.

How does the other old saying go? Produce a sandwich, and you have a good trick. Somebody says they're hungry and THEN you produce a sandwich... you have a miracle.

So if someone says they feel like a game of poker and then you produce a deck of cards, you have a miracle. But if you have to first borrow a deck to produce you'll lose most of the miracle aspect.

People are suspicious of cards in the context of magic, and they're doubly suspicious of people who carry around their own pack of cards to do magic, especially if you're just some dude. And that's not unreasonable.

None of which addresses the point. My point was never that you shouldn't borrow cards when possible. My point clearly has been that you should have the ability to do magic with borrowed cards. But I maintain that learning, practicing and performing with cheap, crappy props (cards or otherwise) should not be your defining factors in learning and deciding what to perform. While I pretty much agree with most of what you wrote, none of it really addresses the fact that the advice given was bad unless you do agree with that and your only point is that it's not as bad as I said.

Some examples of reasonable advice might have been:

-Learn tricks that you can do with any borrowed deck because sometimes (often) you'll get a cheap crappy deck.
-Practice as many tricks (that you're going to perform) with different deck in various conditions so you can do them with most borrowed decks.
-Borrow the deck whenever you can.

And since the most common deck used (at least in the southeast US) are Bicycle Rider Backs, there's a good chance that's what you'll get when you borrow a deck of decks. While borrowed Bicycle decks can be in poor condition like any other brand, they are not "crappy quality" cards- and that's what DrugFreeAlcoholic was advised to use. So at least in large parts of the US, you're specifically not using the cards that you'd likely be able to borrow.

 

[Unalienable]

First learn the basics with a brand new fresh pack of Bikes. You can buy two packs for $3 at Walmart, go and buy a bunch of them. Learn how to fan them, how to dribble them, your double lifts, Ascanio spreads, etc. etc. etc.

After a bunch of practice you'll have some packs that are very well worn. Learn how to handle them as well. Once a deck gets really bad, don't throw it away, it will come in handy for practicing certain moves or tricks that require you to mutilate cards, like the Mercury Card Fold or torn+restored card tricks. Springing the cards (where you stream them from one hand to another) is another flourish that is really rough on the deck.

Finally learn how to use really crappy dollar store cards, the kind without the patented air-cushion finish, the kind that stick together and cannot be fanned. Now if you show up at your friend's house and ask to see their deck, you'll be ready to deal with their crappy cards.

 

[Cain]

I have been rather busy lately.

Paul Cummins also does tricks that can't be done FASDIU.... Swain does many tricks where the spectator couldn't shuffle the cards whenever they please, but he also knows how to handle situations to prevent that from appearing to be a problem....

And I'm sure, as you noted early, Lorayne does not ALWAYS borrow a deck. But advice is presumably given to help a person grow, so sometimes it's better to blunt it. When it comes down to *I* do not ONLY use a regular deck of cards. But still....

Still true, but it's not difficult to pass off a regular deck of cards as a regular deck of cards.

In most cases, I agree, but for some there remains a scintilla of doubt. In one of the cases I mentioned above, a spectator said I couldn't do a trick with a borrowed deck because they were not my "special" cards (he had been a "challenge" type, and was the only one who had seen me perform before). I still remember his stunned, reeling reaction when I did the Fingerprint trick for him -- the most amazing part was seeing his smug expression completely vanish. Even though I would like to think/hope the effects I do with my memorized stack are stronger (all things being equal), the fact you're using borrowed cards just takes it to the next level. It removes all doubt.

So if someone says they feel like a game of poker and then you produce a deck of cards, you have a miracle. But if you have to first borrow a deck to produce you'll lose most of the miracle aspect.

No...

Some examples of reasonable advice might have been:

-Learn tricks that you can do with any borrowed deck because sometimes (often) you'll get a cheap crappy deck.
-Practice as many tricks (that you're going to perform) with different deck in various conditions so you can do them with most borrowed decks.
-Borrow the deck whenever you can.

Agreed. I feel inclined to say one should practice with said crappy cards more or less in proportion to how often she expects to use them.

 

[Bob Klase]

In most cases, I agree, but for some there remains a scintilla of doubt. In one of the cases I mentioned above, a spectator said I couldn't do a trick with a borrowed deck because they were not my "special" cards (he had been a "challenge" type, and was the only one who had seen me perform before). I still remember his stunned, reeling reaction when I did the Fingerprint trick for him -- the most amazing part was seeing his smug expression completely vanish. Even though I would like to think/hope the effects I do with my memorized stack are stronger (all things being equal), the fact you're using borrowed cards just takes it to the next level. It removes all doubt.

For some there is always doubt no matter what you do. In your example you only had to do 'a' trick with borrowed cards, not a particular trick. That agrees with my statement that you should have at least a couple things you can do with any deck of cards. Not long ago I had a kid and his mother that kept insisting that I repeat tricks over and over. That doesn't mean I should limit myself to tricks that can be repeated 8 times without being figured out.

So if someone says they feel like a game of poker and then you produce a deck of cards, you have a miracle. But if you have to first borrow a deck to produce you'll lose most of the miracle aspect.

No...

No? You're at a party and some asks you to perform. You say "do you have a deck of cards I can borrow". Then you produce the deck of cards they just gave you and it's a miracle?

Aside from that I don't see much I'd disagree with in your post.

 

[Monza]

I agree with Bob Klase and suggest to use the best props you can afford. USPCC Bicycles are quite common, of very decent quality, and very affordable. You can get a pack of 12 for about 13 bucks at Costco, for example.

I would not recommend sepnding $200 for a deck of Jerry's Nugget cards.

If you are ever in Las Vegas, stop by the Gamblers' General Store. They have a huge supply of casino cards. They also carry about every other card imaginable. I like to buy one example of several so that I can decide what I like best. I still use Bikes most often, but I do like Tally-Ho fan backs.