If CERN Kills Us All, Would We Notice?

[Dragoonster]

It creates pooploads of energy too. If that poopload gets too big...

According to wikipedia, (the most accurate source of information on Earth) 1 kg of antimatter is a 47 megaton bomb.

I'm not saying that is likely though.

Yep, and as you say the problem of stablizing it is the problem, if the problem could be solved...than the stabilzation is the problem. Um...

Imagine every poop atom in your body exploding at the speed of light because a couple brainiac physicists decided to stabilize anti-protons. That's a lot of poopload.

 

[gambling_cruiser]

It creates pooploads of energy too. If that poopload gets too big...

According to wikipedia, (the most accurate source of information on Earth) 1 kg of antimatter is a 47 megaton bomb.

I'm not saying that is likely though.

And how do you get 1 kg of anti matter from a collision of 2 protons?
A proton has about 1.6 x 10e-27 kg!!!!
And anti matter is not a bomb material!
Reality is not a Dan Brown script!
The energy at annihilation of anti-matter/matter is radiated away as gamma radiation.

 

[Dragoonster]

And how do you get 1 kg of anti matter from a collision of 2 protons?
A proton has about 1.6 x 10e-27 kg!!!!
And anti matter is not a bomb material!
Reality is not a Dan Brown script!
The energy at annihilation of anti-matter/matter is radiated away as gamma radiation.

A gram of antimatter can be (non-theoretically) achieved, it would just take a poopload of $$$ and time. Advance in science and those can be reduced, until we get 10kg of antimatter in a stabilizing field, then oops, bye bye Earth.

 

[gambling_cruiser]

Yep, and as you say the problem of stablizing it is the problem, if the problem could be solved...than the stabilzation is the problem. Um...

Imagine every poop atom in your body exploding at the speed of light because a couple brainiac physicists decided to stabilize anti-protons. That's a lot of poopload.

Nice try of a horror story, but how can anti-matter stabilized?
How could anti-matter reach a human?
CERN is underground.
First hit is the walls of the vacuum chamber. No way any anti-matter is going through.
Then massive rock. Then air on the way to you.
The proverbal snowball in hell has a billion times better chance to survive than anti matter outside a magnetic bottle.

 

[KingMerv00]

And how do you get 1 kg of anti matter from a collision of 2 protons?
A proton has about 1.6 x 10e-27 kg!!!!
And anti matter is not a bomb material!
Reality is not a Dan Brown script!
The energy at annihilation of anti-matter/matter is radiated away as gamma radiation.

Woah. Exclamation points not needed. I didn't say I was worried. I know CERN only flings tiny tiny things at other tiny tiny things.

Dragoonster is more worried about the consequences of CERN's experiments, not the direct outcome.

 

[gambling_cruiser]

A gram of antimatter can be (non-theoretically) achieved, it would just take a poopload of $$$ and time. Advance in science and those can be reduced, until we get 10kg of antimatter in a stabilizing field, then oops, bye bye Earth.

And how do you get 1g of anti matter?
I think you have read to much of Dan Brown crap.
And anti matter is no bomb material! Forget Star Trek.

 

[LostAngeles]

The possible micro blakc hole would be about two proton masses and it is infinitesimally small. AFAIK if there is no Hawking radiation then the micro black hole does only interact through gravity.
If there is Hawking radiation the micro black hole wuold evaporate quickly without any chance of growing.
As all events of the CERN experiments occure naturally in the upper atmosphere at any given time (and many events with much higher energy than CERN can produce), and in the last 4.5 billion years no detectable black hole has formed on/near earth we can conclude there is no risk to fear.

Awesome. Thanks.

I'm not particularly worried about CERN, but the idea of an apocalypse brought on by BIG SCIENCE EXPERIMENT GONE WRONG that doesn't involve zombies (nothing against them) is really interesting. Especially the idea of a man-made black hole.

So long as it's not on the Sci-fi channel.

 

[gambling_cruiser]

The big design problems for an anti matter bombs are:
* you can't get anti matter in large amounts
* you have to mix matter and anti matter instantly at 1:1 for a spontan annihilation event without getting anti matter in contact with anything before the perfect mixture is achieved. Otherwise your bomb has destroyed itself and you have a gamma ray burst.
There is no chain reaction like in fission bombs.
Annhihilation works particle for particle.

 

[gambling_cruiser]

Awesome. Thanks.

I'm not particularly worried about CERN, but the idea of an apocalypse brought on by BIG SCIENCE EXPERIMENT GONE WRONG that doesn't involve zombies (nothing against them) is really interesting. Especially the idea of a man-made black hole.

So long as it's not on the Sci-fi channel.

But CERN makes nothing new!
They only make events that naturally happen all the time in the upper atmosphere observable under controlled conditions.
But as I am much closer to CERN than you, I'll let you know when the glowing blue in the west appears and tidal forces begin to stretch me. I promise!

 

[LostAngeles]

But CERN makes nothing new!
They only make events that naturally happens all the time in the upper atmosphere observable under controlled conditions.

No, I understand that. I'm saying the idea fueling the fear that some people have is interesting.

Erk, that was awkward.

OK, the fear that people have of CERN causing the End of Earth and their, "rationalizations?" I find the general idea to be interesting and was wondering, "if it could happen, what would it be like."

 

[LostAngeles]

...
But as I am much closer to CERN than you, I'll let you know when the glowing blue in the west appears and tidal forces begin to stretch me. I promise!

Didn't we already establish that I'd never find out because you're moving through time so much slower? Just because people's CERN fears aren't based in reality, doesn't mean you get to violate the rules of physics in the event that their fantasy happens!

 

[KingMerv00]

Didn't we already establish that I'd never find out because you're moving through time so much slower?

Depends where he is in relation to you. If he was just the right distance from CERN, he could give you a call. He would sound like Barry White to you and you would sound like Alvin of the Chipmunks to him. Fun for all.

 

[LostAngeles]

Depends where he is in relation to you. If he was just the right distance from CERN, he could give you a call. He would sound like Barry White to you and you would sound like Alvin of the Chipmunks to him. Fun for all.

You know, a black hole would make for a great phone sex line then.

ETA: Er, for the Chipmunks calling Barry White.

 

[KingMerv00]

You know, a black hole would make for a great phone sex line then.

ETA: Er, for the Chipmunks calling Barry White.

Dear God. DOWN WITH CERN!

 

[Dragoonster]

And how do you get 1g of anti matter?
I think you have read to much of Dan Brown crap.
And anti matter is no bomb material! Forget Star Trek.

A wiki article I saw said antimatter stabilizing was real, as in happening right know, and that it was currently the most expensive matter artificially created. (I did caveat that my knowledge was snail-like btw ) Sure, it's a big problem what with the matter saying "I think not" to the antimatter, but these crazy brainiac physicists seem determined to stabilize it anyway.

As others have said this has nothing to do with CERN, just physics experiments in general. I don't think it's honest to say natural earth atmosphere or body has stabilized antimatter in a single spot. In some experiements we are treading on new creation.

Also, part of my hesitation on the Fermi Paradox is a theory on faster-than-light travel being based on a certain physics knowledge that would invariably result from an experiment that would destroy the world. Thus that communication wouldn't exist, and thus we will destroy ourselves.

 

[gambling_cruiser]

As I don't have the phone number of LostAngeles I will just post here.
And if this happens you will have plenty of time to run around shouting at the top of your lungs "The world is coming to an end! We are all going to die! Panic! Or do you want to have sex a last time?"
Maybe the tidal forces will s.t..r...e....t.....c......h m.......y p......o........s............t..........!

 

[gambling_cruiser]

A wiki article I saw said antimatter stabilizing was real, as in happening right know, and that it was currently the most expensive matter artificially created. (I did caveat that my knowledge was snail-like btw ) Sure, it's a big problem what with the matter saying "I think not" to the antimatter, but these crazy brainiac physicists seem determined to stabilize it anyway.

As others have said this has nothing to do with CERN, just physics experiments in general. I don't think it's honest to say natural earth atmosphere or body has stabilized antimatter in a single spot. In some experiements we are treading on new creation.

Also, part of my hesitation on the Fermi Paradox is a theory on faster-than-light travel being based on a certain physics knowledge that would invariably result from an experiment that would destroy the world. Thus that communication wouldn't exist, and thus we will destroy ourselves.

The only way to "stabilize" anti matter is keeping it from normal matter!
The natural occuring events in the upper atmosphere have higher energies than CERN can achieve. That is an answer to micro black holes.
To keep anti matter from matter you have to make charged anti matter and store it in vacuum with electromagnetic fields preventing it from touching the walls of the storage container.
If you fail to prevent contact with the walls the anti matter is gone and a small amount of the wall is gone and gamma radiation is sterilizing the surroundings.

 

[Dragoonster]

As I don't have the phone number of LostAngeles I will just post here.
And if this happens you will have plenty of time to run around shouting at the top of your lungs "The world is coming to an end! We are all going to die! Panic! Or do you want to have sex a last time?"
Maybe the tidal forces will s.t..r...e....t.....c......h m.......y p......o........s............t..........!

That's my major question If we have time to plead for sex my worries dissipate almost into nothing

 

[sol invictus]

At those (cosmically) small distances, would that delay be that noticiable? Do I appear to be still be working on the same homework problem to my professors? Does my cat move more slowly in the kitchen than in the living room? Does my mom seem to spend epicly more time talking about wanting grandbabies?

No.

The gravitational pull of a black hole - and therefore its time dilation effects - are precisely as strong as those of any other object of the same total mass, if you are the same distance away from its center as you are from the center of the hole. That is, if you are 100,000 km from the center of the earth, the gravitational field you will measure is precisely the same as the one you'd measure if you were 100,000 km from the center of an earth-mass black hole.

The mass of any holes CERN might create would be of order a few proton masses - so the gravitational pull any distance away would be much, much, much, much weaker than the gravitational pull of that apple on your desk, and so there are no interesting time dilation effects.

You could ask what would happen if you fell into a large black hole - a solar mass one several kilometers across, for example. Then things get painful - tidal forces would tear you apart before you got to the horizon.

 

[Cuddles]

OK. Firstly, none of you are talking about CERN. CERN is a large campus with many different labs in it, including at least a couple of different particle accelerators, nuclear research labs and so on. What you are actually talking about is the Large Hadron Collider, which is a particle accelerator and collider, not a reactor, built in the tunnel of the decommisioned Large Electron-Positron collider.

Secondly, antimatter. Antimatter is not some weird unstable stuff, it is completely natural, and is floating around the Earth all the time. A lot of cosmic rays are antimatter, many radioactive elements produce antimatter when they decay, all particle colliders that have ever existed have produced antimatter and so on. It's really nothing to be scared of. In addition, in the entire history of particle physics, only a tiny fraction of a nanogram has ever been produced artifically, and it would take billions of years to produce even just a gram with current facilities. Most relevant to this thread is the simple fact that the LHC will produce no more antimatter than any other collider.

Thirdly, black holes. The first point with these is that the LHC is simply not capable of producing anything dangerous, since the energies involved are far less than natural collisions that occur on Earth all the time. If you ignore this and assume that we have unlimited energy to produce black holes of any size, there are only really two possibilities. By far the most likely are small black holes. Since the ratio of surface area to volume increases as a sphere decreases in size, and Hawking radiation is proportional to surface area, the smaller a black hole is, the faster it evaporates. The kind of black holes that could be produced even by extremely high energy collisions would evaporate before they even reached the walls of the collider.

The other possibility would be if a black hole was large enough that it survived long enough to eat particles at a greater rate than it evaporated. This would still be a tiny black hole, much smaller than atom, although the exact size needed depends on things like the material it is in. Since by far the biggest influence on the black hole would be the Earth's gravity, it would sink down to the centre of the Earth, where it would go about eating everything down there. Since it would be so small to begin with, the process would probably take millions of years.

However, we would never notice that it was there. The important thing to remember is that any given mass will always produce the same gravitational field at any distance outside the massive body. It would make no difference if the Earth were compressed down to a point, the gravity at the distance where the surface currently is would still feel exactly the same gravitational pull. When a body is 3D and not a point, the gravity inside will be different, but outside it will always be identical. This means there would be no time dilation, and nothing funny at all happening. However, what would happen is that there would no longer be any internal structure to hold the surface of the Earth where it is, so eventually the whole Earth would collapse under its own weight. Presumably there would also be some interesting stuff like earthquakes and volcanoes that would give some warning beforehand.