Scientific Research on Crop Circles

[gs21stc]

It seems that people are misunderstanding me. I am just going to clarify my position on the crop circles matter.

I think that there definitely is something natural about the simple circular ones. I do not believe in plasma vortex (Levengood). What I do believe is that the Ball of Light hypothesis (Haselhoff) might have some truth to it because there is a real and enigmatic phenomena which resembles it, Ball Lightning. I still do not fully understand the mechanism for the natural origin of the simple circles described by mhaze.

1) I do not know of the existence of any other intelligence except human beings. Therefore, I conclude that the large and complex circles are all made by humans. If I were ever to be aware of an alternative intelligence, I will take them into account when postulating the origin of the big complicated circles.

I do not agree with this:

2) Aliens have made those big and complicated crop circles.

Can you see the difference between statements 1 and 2?

I also believe that we can only speculate, but not predict the social behaviour and technological capabilities of an alternative intelligence when we are not even sure of their existence.

P/S: I hope I will not be misunderstood again by putting some of the important key words in bold.

 

[EHocking]

It seems that people are misunderstanding me. I am just going to clarify my position on the crop circles matter.

I think that there definitely is something natural about the simple circular ones. I do not believe in plasma vortex (Levengood). What I do believe is that the Ball of Light hypothesis (Haselhoff) might have some truth to it because there is a real and enigmatic phenomena which resembles it, Ball Lightning. I still do not fully understand the mechanism for the natural origin of the simple circles described by mhaze...

If you take the natural explanation for even the most simple of circles, please explain how these natural phenomena abided by Defra prohibitions of travel in the UK countryside during the 2001 F&M outbreak, as raised by me in post 74 and decidedly ignored by you.

 

[RichardR]

Circular Reasoning

Joe Nickell on problems with Levengood's Crop-Circle Plant Research.

Levengood claims that only the stalks in “genuine” circles (ie those not produced by human hoaxers) show “abnormalities” not present in those produced by humans. How does he know which stalks come from “genuine” circles? Because they are the ones with the abnormalities only found in genuine circles. How does he know the abnormalities are only found in genuine circles? Because only genuine circles have the anomalies. How does he know….. er, you get the picture.

This is all old stuff. Nothing new here.

 

[The Atheist]

It seems that people are misunderstanding me. I am just going to clarify my position on the crop circles matter.

Sound plan.

This is from your first post:

Recently, I am starting to have some doubts about the man-made hypothesis.

While your position now is:

1)I conclude that the large and complex circles are all made by humans. If I were ever to be aware of an alternative intelligence, I will take them into account when postulating the origin of the big complicated circles.

I do not agree with this:

2) Aliens have made those big and complicated crop circles.

Excellent!

You've gone from doubt to a conclusion.

I also believe that we can only speculate, but not predict the social behaviour and technological capabilities of an alternative intelligence when we are not even sure of their existence.

There's no difference at all. All predictions are is speculation on the evidence in hand. Since we have no evidence of the existence of aliens, we can only speculate about the things we do know about, like the amazing technology required to come here and that intelligence is behind that technology.

 

[gs21stc]

Fact.
When the foot and mouth crisis in the UK in 2001 closed all pathways and other access routes to/from farms and fields no crop circles were created.

Fact.
In each of the first three counties that re-opened pathways, the very next day a crop circle was found in a field in those counties.

If that is true, then there is no reason to believe in a natural explanation of the crop circles.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Stumbled across a couple of interesting looking papers searching through google scholar on lorentz-violating vortex synchrotron radiation that may make a good addition here for people to ponder over, they are published in what are (i think) respectable journals;


Dispersion Of Energies In Worldwide Crop Formations

Abstract:
The findings reported here lend further support to a decade of research which suggests that over 95% of worldwide crop formations involve organized ion plasma vortices that deliver lower atmosphere energy components of sufficient magnitude to produce significant bending, expansion and the formation of unique expulsion cavities in plant stem pulvini, as well as significant changes in seedling development. Here we demonstrate that, in a number of formations, quantitative node alterations can be directly related to fundamental concepts of electromagnetic energy absorption through the atmosphere. Also, in a detailed field study of simulated crop formations, we show that overfertilization or gravitropism cannot account for observed physiological alterations. In addition, we demonstrate that details of flattened, intertwined crop patterns can be described by the application of fluid dynamic principles governing the interaction of rectilinearly moving vortex pairs.

And these two popped up too, not sure what journal they're in, but they seem to be relevant to the above paper;

http://www.cropfiles.it/docs/Crops-by-Bols.pdf
http://isole.ecn.org/cunfi/Haselhoff.pdf

 

[The Atheist]

http://www.cropfiles.it/docs/Crops-by-Bols.pdf
http://isole.ecn.org/cunfi/Haselhoff.pdf

You are kidding, aren't you?

And that second link should have a "T" instead of a "J" after the second slash break.

 

[shadron]

I believe this to be wrong. As far as I know, the sun puts out radiation in all parts of the spectrum from radio to x-ray. What we see is filtered by the atmosphere.

Can anyone correct me?

Arthwollipot, Hokulele is right. The sun, like any radiator radiates in all frequencies possible, but it is tuned by it's physics to a particular frequency, which happens (thanks to the anthropic principle) to fall right in the middle of the visible spectrum, in particular in what we recognize as yellow. Other stars peak in other visible colors, and into the infrared and ultraviolet. There are other astrophysical phenomena which peak in x-rays, and some that peak in radio waves, in this latter notably the big bang background radiation, but also including Jupiter.

This peak output is further modified by passage through the solar atmosphere, which absorbs specific narrow colors, and the earth's atmosphere, which eliminates whole bands (see http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resources/explorations//groundup/lesson/basics/g17b/index.php).

 

[gs21stc]

Fact.
When the foot and mouth crisis in the UK in 2001 closed all pathways and other access routes to/from farms and fields no crop circles were created.

Fact.
In each of the first three counties that re-opened pathways, the very next day a crop circle was found in a field in those counties.

If that is true, then there is no reason to believe in a natural explanation of the crop circles.

I have just found out more information about the food and mouth disease which happened in 2001. It started spring/summer 2001 and ended October 2001 (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_UK_foot_and_mouth_crisis#References).

The Milk Hill formation, which was hailed as the best design ever at that time, was discovered on 13th August 2001 (Source: http://www.weirdwiltshire.co.uk/milkhill.html). This is a pretty famous formation, so you can easily google it and read it from another source if you don't trust this one. Looks like Fact#1 is wrong.

 

[gs21stc]

Dispersion Of Energies In Worldwide Crop Formations

That is exactly the same as the third link in the OP.

http://isole.ecn.org/cunfi/Haselhoff.pdf

This link is attached in the OP as Ball_of_Light.pdf.

Did you even read my OP?

http://www.cropfiles.it/docs/Crops-by-Bols.pdf

This is just an explanation of the content in Ball_of_Light.pdf to the layman.

 

[arthwollipot]

So, I see that you don't agree with mhaze that the simple circular ones have a non-manmade explanation. I am still waiting for mhaze to provide me with more information on this matter.

Hang on. Is the claim that only those circles which are the easiest for humans to make are non-manmade?

 

[luchog]

The Sun cannot explain it. See post #68 and Ball_of_Light.pdf.

Sorry, as I said, you have to demonstrate that the phenomenon actually exists, first. You've yet to do so.

 

[luchog]

I think that this crop circle case is not the same as what you were talking about. The plasma vortex have absolutely no predictive power to explain Levengood's data. He is merely proposing it as a possible mechanism.

Then, came Haselhoff. He successfully proposed a simple equation which fits Levengood's data perfectly for three of the circles Levengood studied. This same equation does not fit the data from a man-made crop circle. See Ball_of_Light.pdf. There is even a stronger support for Haselhoff's hypothesis compared to Levengood's. The real, enigmatic Ball Lightning phenomena is a very good candidate for his proposed Ball of Light.

Except that, depite your and their assertions, there has been no independent verification of this "data" from a reputable expert with the appropriate credentials. So far, not only is the theory invalid, but the supposed data itself may have been produced entirely ex rectum as well.

 

[EHocking]

I have just found out more information about the food and mouth disease which happened in 2001. It started spring/summer 2001 and ended October 2001 (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_UK_foot_and_mouth_crisis#References).

The Milk Hill formation, which was hailed as the best design ever at that time, was discovered on 13th August 2001 (Source: http://www.weirdwiltshire.co.uk/milkhill.html). This is a pretty famous formation, so you can easily google it and read it from another source if you don't trust this one. Looks like Fact#1 is wrong.

You obviously thought I haven't posted on this subject before.

Go to groups.google and punch in "FMD and Cropcircles" to get the whole saga, but in short here is the relevant info on Wiltshire for that year. The first cropcircle in Wiltshire for 2001 (source www.cropcircleresearch.com) was at Hackpen on the 29th May.

The rights of way in Wiltshire were open to the public on the 26th.

(quoting myself from sci.skeptics)

"For the record, Wiltshire Council announced a reopening of RoW across the
county on the 15th May.
See the 24th May press release:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010605091722/www.wiltshire.gov.uk/latest_news/getnews.php3?id=46
Id: 46 - Thursday 24th May 2001 09:50 - Press Release
PR 401 Wiltshire opens up for May Bank Holiday
The May Bank Holiday will see the majority of Wiltshire's Rights of Way
legally reopened - the first couThee May Bank Holiday will see the majority
of Wiltshire's Rights of Way legally reopened - the first county in the
South West to adopt such a policy.
On 15th May Wiltshire County Council's Policy and Resources committee
announced a reopening of Rights of Way across the county with some
exceptions. [I will find these exceptions for you Paul]
From Saturday 26th May the only paths to be legally closed will be those
going directly through farmyards or those used as milking tracks. Farmers
will be issued with new notices to be put up only in those locations.
There is also an option for farmers to erect a notice asking walkers to stay
out of fields with large concentrations of livestock. This will only be an
advisory notice and will not be legally binding.
++++ end quote
Note that as from 15th there are only SOME exceptions to the lifting of
restrictions and from the 26th there are NO LEGALLY BINDING restrictions at
all in Wiltshire.

A similar timing occurred as each of the cropcircle "hot" counties opened up the Rights of Way (public paths in the countryside) to the general public.

 

[gs21stc]

Sorry, as I said, you have to demonstrate that the phenomenon actually exists, first. You've yet to do so.

Except that, depite your and their assertions, there has been no independent verification of this "data" from a reputable expert with the appropriate credentials. So far, not only is the theory invalid, but the supposed data itself may have been produced entirely ex rectum as well.

There is no evidence for the existence of ball of light. It is merely a hypothesis to explain Levengood's data which is assumed to be real. There is no way to verify this data unless you have access to the plants that were used in Levengood's measurements. I am not sure if anyone had done that. This data is published in a fairly reputable mainstream journal, Physiologica Plantarum. If you don't trust the data, there is nothing I can do.

 

[Cuddles]

Real space ships... Edwards and Kennedy.
Burlap and library paste spaceship landed at Mohave. Been there too.

I'll take that as a no then. See post by Rats. Not only is America not the only country in the world, even America has landed spaceships elsewhere.

 

[gs21stc]

"For the record, Wiltshire Council announced a reopening of RoW across the
county on the 15th May.
See the 24th May press release:
http://web.archive.org/web/200106050...ews.php3?id=46
Id: 46 - Thursday 24th May 2001 09:50 - Press Release
PR 401 Wiltshire opens up for May Bank Holiday
The May Bank Holiday will see the majority of Wiltshire's Rights of Way
legally reopened - the first couThee May Bank Holiday will see the majority
of Wiltshire's Rights of Way legally reopened - the first county in the
South West to adopt such a policy.
On 15th May Wiltshire County Council's Policy and Resources committee
announced a reopening of Rights of Way across the county with some
exceptions. [I will find these exceptions for you Paul]
From Saturday 26th May the only paths to be legally closed will be those
going directly through farmyards or those used as milking tracks. Farmers
will be issued with new notices to be put up only in those locations.
There is also an option for farmers to erect a notice asking walkers to stay
out of fields with large concentrations of livestock. This will only be an
advisory notice and will not be legally binding.
++++ end quote
Note that as from 15th there are only SOME exceptions to the lifting of
restrictions and from the 26th there are NO LEGALLY BINDING restrictions at
all in Wiltshire.

Thanks for this information. I thought that they only open pathways after the outbreak has halted.

I have thought of this as soon as I read post#74, but I decided against posting this when I saw that there are crop circles created before October 2001.

How long was the time period for the closing of the pathways?

You have gave me an answer, about 4 months. That I think, is simply not enough time to make any firm conclusions about the likelihood that the creation of crop circles are affected by the closing of the pathways. Since the crop circles phenomena happens during the growing season (i.e. an annual event of sorts), you will need the pathways to be closed for several years.

If crop circles are not created at all for a few years even though it is an annual event, then there is strong evidence that the closing of the pathways has definitely affected the creation of the crop circles. The longer you close the pathways, the more confident you are. I think generally, you will need at least 3-5 years to have any amount of certainty at all.

They announce that the rights of way were reopened on the 15th May 2001. Is it possible that they have reopened it 4 days earlier? This page claims that the first crop circle in 2001 was discovered on 11th May 2001:

http://www.mystic-mouse.co.uk/Wisdom_Texts/G_Tucker/Crop_Circles_2001/UK_Crop_Circle_Review_1.htm

P/S: I am not against the theory that closing of the footpaths affected the creation of crop circles. I am on the fence about this, and will believe it if there is stronger evidence.

 

[I Ratant]

I'll take that as a no then. See post by Rats. Not only is America not the only country in the world, even America has landed spaceships elsewhere.

This is intriguing.
What/whose/where/when?

 

[EHocking]

Thanks for this information. I thought that they only open pathways after the outbreak has halted.

I have thought of this as soon as I read post#74, but I decided against posting this when I saw that there are crop circles created before October 2001.

How long was the time period for the closing of the pathways?

You have gave me an answer, about 4 months. That I think, is simply not enough time to make any firm conclusions about the likelihood that the creation of crop circles are affected by the closing of the pathways. Since the crop circles phenomena happens during the growing season (i.e. an annual event of sorts), you will need the pathways to be closed for several years.

If crop circles are not created at all for a few years even though it is an annual event, then there is strong evidence that the closing of the pathways has definitely affected the creation of the crop circles. The longer you close the pathways, the more confident you are. I think generally, you will need at least 3-5 years to have any amount of certainty at all.

Well since this is untestable, they are NEVER going to close RoW for years, this "theory" is unfalsifiable - ironically, a strawman.

You might as well claim that the % of pedestrians killed by vehicles in London is only testable by closing London roads to traffic for years.

They announce that the rights of way were reopened on the 15th May 2001. Is it possible that they have reopened it 4 days earlier? This page claims that the first crop circle in 2001 was discovered on 11th May 2001:

http://www.mystic-mouse.co.uk/Wisdom_Texts/G_Tucker/Crop_Circles_2001/UK_Crop_Circle_Review_1.htm

I'm only quoting "real" ones. This is described at cropcircleresearch.com as "a 'field-art' creation by an artist called Gabriella Falk and the design was laid out by Somerset College of Art & Technology (SCAT)"

Not really helping your alien or natural forces origins theory, is it?

Oh, and this one was ALSO in Hampshire where there was NO FMD restrictions in 2001.

P/S: I am not against the theory that closing of the footpaths affected the creation of crop circles. I am on the fence about this, and will believe it if there is stronger evidence.

You have yet to effectively dismiss the evidence presented. How about looking into the evidence available and testing it's strength before claiming it needs to be more robust?

 

[gs21stc]

You might as well claim that the % of pedestrians killed by vehicles in London is only testable by closing London roads to traffic for years.

The percentage that pedestrians killed by vehicles in London is definitely testable if you know for sure what causes the death of the pedestrian on the road when it is reported. You simply dismiss the ones where they were not killed by vehicles.

If the roads are closed to traffic for a short period of time, and you don't see any pedestrian deaths, will you conclude that they can only die from vehicles? How about the other factors you have dismissed before? Are they not real?

Provided that you close the traffic for a long enough time, you will definitely see pedestrians dying from the other factors if they are real.

For the case of crop circles, a few months is simply not long enough to make any firm conclusions considering it is an annual event.

You have yet to effectively dismiss the evidence presented. How about looking into the evidence available and testing it's strength before claiming it needs to be more robust?

I think there is a delay (about a month) in the appeareances of the crop circles in 2001 compared to previous years. There is certainly reason to suspect that the closing of rights of way is affecting this. However, if they were closed just for a bit more, eg. until the end of the year and you don't observe crop circles, that would lend more credibilty to that theory.

My conclusion is that the evidence is good, but not strong enough.

I'm only quoting "real" ones. This is described at cropcircleresearch.com as "a 'field-art' creation by an artist called Gabriella Falk and the design was laid out by Somerset College of Art & Technology (SCAT)"

Not really helping your alien or natural forces origins theory, is it?

Oh, and this one was ALSO in Hampshire where there was NO FMD restrictions in 2001.

Thanks for the clarification.