Multi-level Marketing - the way of credulous.

[icerat]

Then why do you sound EXACTLY like every other Ambot on earth? From my research so far I find little different between N21 and any of the Dexter spinoffs.

uhuh. I've asked you many times to actually let us in on what this "research" was - you've refused. And you've made claims about more than just N21.

You guys sound exactly the same. The tools money still isn't accounted for.

BSM profit is a separate issue to whether MLM or Amway itself is worthwhile and legal.

I would argue that you sound much more like the religious believer than any of the critics.

And I would argue that you do. You willfully chose to ignore evidence that contradicts your belief system. You've regularly abused, vilified, and denigrated someone who provides that evidence.

Open your eyes. This is just not a good opportunity.

Compared to what? Still waiting.

Even if you thought MLM was a good idea it would be smarter to source a product yourself and create your own pyramid than to try and sell Amway products tainted by years of scamming.

No thanks, too much past experience with that part of traditional distribution. Pain in the *ss. As for the reputation issue, it's a problem and definitely a down side. My choice is to help correct the problems, and even with them I consider it worthwhile doing.

You should really ask yourself if you've objectively examined all of the claims. Do you think you know where every dollar of tools/function money goes? Or are you just guessing? Could you be wrong? Is it even POSSIBLE you could be wrong?

It doesn't matter!

I do have a very good idea of where the money goes, at least with the organization I work with, and I have sources that essentially cannot be bettered in that area, and even then I've verified them in other ways.

But it doesn't matter. At it's heart, N21 is a company I purchase services from. All that matters is whether I think I get value for money for the stuff I buy from them. I buy books and CDs and attend seminars from other sources as well. I've no idea what their profit is like either! I don't know Amway's either. It doesn't matter

Whether Amway or N21, if I think their offerings are good value, I promote them. I don't think all of Amway's or N21's offerings are good value, so I don't promote them.

I have yet to see ANY evidence that there isn't more profit in tools for a diamond. $150k split between two people is pretty LAME for the amount of work. Another several hundred thousand in tools money sure would take the edge off if I was a diamond....

It's very easy not to see any evidence, when you chose to dismiss it when evidence is provided that you don't like.

If you think the return isn't worth the effort to generate it, that's fine, your entitled to your opinion, and entitled to make the obvious choice not to do it.

Still waiting for suggested alternatives.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I already suggested an alternative, flipping burgers or digging ditches.

As for the rest of it YES IT DAMN WELL DOES MATTER. Turning people into little Ambot clones is F*(&@^#$@ EVIL.

The fact that the regular business plan is so crappy is what has led to this entire tools mess. The fact that the majority of distributor money is made from tools completely compromises the entire system.

If it doesn't matter why can't we get full disclosure on where the tools money actually goes?

 

[icerat]

I already suggested an alternative, flipping burgers or digging ditches.

Care to show the calculations that indicate that can make you 100k/yr after you stop flipping the burgers or digging ditches?

As for the rest of it YES IT DAMN WELL DOES MATTER. Turning people into little Ambot clones is F*(&@^#$@ EVIL.

Um, if people are creating "little Ambot clones" that has nothing at all to do with whether or not people are making money from offering products and services (eg BSM).

The fact that the regular business plan is so crappy is what has led to this entire tools mess.

I disagree. What may corrupts it is when folk offer BSM rebates based on some "pin level" they once achieved in Amway, and may never have achieved again. This means that if their Amway business struggles for whatever reason, then BSM becomes a larger and larger part of the income, percentage wise. If BSM rebates are linked to volume of BSM purchased, as is normal in trade, then this doesn't occur, since if the Amway business increases, so does the BSM business, and similarly if it declines.

Throw in "mates rates" deals and things get completely screwed up.

The fact that the majority of distributor money is made from tools completely compromises the entire system.

The fact is that is not a fact. Might have been in the past for some groups, may even still be for some groups. Certainly isn't the case for all groups today, indeed my information is that these days it's rare.

If it doesn't matter why can't we get full disclosure on where the tools money actually goes?

Well, I think full disclosure is a little bit too much to ask for. Why not ask Amway for full disclosure of where their revenues go? Or any other company?

I do however think publishing of average income statistics for BSM would be a good thing. Amway has actually been the primary driver behind stopping this, as they've a deal of paranoia in the area. The fear is that people will join for the opportunity to earn income from BSM as well as Amway instead of just the opportunity to join to earn income from Amway. They are worried that mixing and promoting the two together, to new people, might cause legal issues.

Another thing I'd like to see is more public disclosure of actual prices. There's a wide variety of pricing differences between different groups. This has been "protected" to a great extent because of the inherent risks involved with the nature of a networking business. However, it also means each individual BSM company operates as a virtual monopoly. While, as I said, I think I get value for money for what I buy from N21, one would expect that proper competition may drive prices down.

Which made me think of one other point of relevance, and of difference between groups - shear volume of BSM promoted. I've heard of groups that promote purchasing as many as 4 CDs a week on their educational/motivational programs. We promote 1 CD a week (plus 1 extra a month for people who have developed larger businesses). If you're promoting 2,3, or 4 a week, then (a) BSM profit obviously increases dramatically and (b) I don't think it's value for money. IMO the marginal utility decreases quite quickly.

If folk are being pressured to do that, which reportedly some are, then it's a serious problem.

 

[Almo]

Which made me think of one other point of relevance, and of difference between groups - shear volume of BSM promoted. I've heard of groups that promote purchasing as many as 4 CDs a week on their educational/motivational programs. We promote 1 CD a week (plus 1 extra a month for people who have developed larger businesses). If you're promoting 2,3, or 4 a week, then (a) BSM profit obviously increases dramatically and (b) I don't think it's value for money. IMO the marginal utility decreases quite quickly.

Something stinks here if you need 4 CDs a month of motivational/organizational materials... I don't buy that many CDs of music and games! And I LOVE music and games.

What's the relevance? I find it really odd that this awesome business opportunity comes with a recommended purchase of 52 CDs per year of info on how to run it. Does running a McDonald's franchise need this sort of thing? I can't answer that, but I sincerely doubt it.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Ha, you mean 4 per week. His organization looks like does 4-5 per month. Some organizations in the past have done that many PER WEEK. I don't think for the most part they can get away with that anymore (although you will probably find it somewhere).

 

[Rasmus]

Which made me think of one other point of relevance, and of difference between groups - shear volume of BSM promoted. I've heard of groups that promote purchasing as many as 4 CDs a week on their educational/motivational programs. We promote 1 CD a week (plus 1 extra a month for people who have developed larger businesses). If you're promoting 2,3, or 4 a week, then (a) BSM profit obviously increases dramatically and (b) I don't think it's value for money. IMO the marginal utility decreases quite quickly.

I have to wonder: What kind of business could that be, if it needs a CD per month just to train or motivate people?

That just has to be so screwed up.

Either you are unable to run your business and get training/motivation. But then you should get that *before* you run the business.

Or you are able to run your business and need new motivation/advise on a weekly basis. But that simply means that something must be seriously wrong!

Plus, it seems to be a generic solution! You are in the business, therefore it is recommended that you use x CDs per month.

I'm sorry, but it would need a lot more than just numbers to convince me that a business like that might be a good idea. Chloroform would be a good start ...

 

[NewtonTrino]

It's a good idea because then your downline will do the same and you can sell them plenty of CD's (and each CD tell's them to buy more CD's, Ain't it great!)

 

[icerat]

Something stinks here if you need 4 CDs a month of motivational/organizational materials... I don't buy that many CDs of music and games! And I LOVE music and games.

What's the relevance? I find it really odd that this awesome business opportunity comes with a recommended purchase of 52 CDs per year of info on how to run it. Does running a McDonald's franchise need this sort of thing? I can't answer that, but I sincerely doubt it.

There's a few factors here. First of all, as I mentioned, when your building a business with effectively zero inbuilt external motivators, then you need to have internal motivators. There's no external motivation such as a boss who will fire you or tens of thousands of dollars of lost capital investment if you don't work. Like any business it takes time to be generating a decent enough income where immediate cashflow is a motivator (and even then, money is intrinsically a poor motivator).

For most people it's very difficult, from a psychological perspective, to build a part-time business on top of work you are already doing. Few people come home from a full-time job and want to then turn around and go out to work again, particular when the rewards can be months, even years away. With a McDonald's franchise you have likely put in upwards of a million dollars, you've had to undergo, at your expense and unpaid, some 6 months of on the job training, and you have McDonald's breathing down your neck making sure everything is running correctly. Plenty of external motivators.

So the need for regular motivation is higher than you might think, and even listening to the same song over and over again gets a bit boring. It's also one reason why it's common for the CDs, particularly for newer people to focus on working out their goals and dreams - so they can work out exactly why it is they are wanting to build a business and what they want to achieve out of it. In other words, identify and develop their internal motivators.

Secondly, it's a lot more than just motivation. 52 cds is what - 40 hours? It's frankly a little insulting that you think there's so little to learn in this industry that you think 40 hrs is excessive. How many hours a year do professional in other industries put in to education? Heck, degrees can be 40hrs a week.

Product and industry knowledge aside, a "platinum", which is one of the first significant levels in Amway, is typically responsible for an organization of a couple of hundred people. To think one can lead/manage an organization like that with little to no training is pretty naive. Most large companies have regular training and retreats for managers responsible for far fewer people than that.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, CDs are fantastic time savers. They're not just for me. If someone wants to know something specific about the business, I could sit down with them for an hour or two and explain it to them, or I could lend them a CD where someone far more successful and knowledgeable than me explains it. An hour of my time is worth a lot more than a $7 CD, and hour worth of the speaker on the CD is worth a heck of a lot more than that.

There are constantly new products and new techniques being developed. A CD or mp3 based continuing education program, along with it's motivational aspects, is a great way to communicate those to folk in an easy to accessible way, and they are great tools to lend to prospects and new IBOs to help inform them, motivate them and train them.

I find them of great value not just for my Amway business. When I regularly listen to N21 cds I am more focussed and efficient and productive in all the businesses I'm involved in. Many folk report similar experiences in their jobs.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Basically if you don't listen to the brainwashing a lot it won't take. Since they also make money from each of these (and they produce them using speeches from the different "functions" you attend) it's very profitable. The more you buy the more money they make, hence they will push as many as possible on you. Keep in mind these aren't textbooks, generally they are more motivational in nature.

 

[icerat]

Basically if you don't listen to the brainwashing a lot it won't take. Since they also make money from each of these (and they produce them using speeches from the different "functions" you attend) it's very profitable. The more you buy the more money they make, hence they will push as many as possible on you. Keep in mind these aren't textbooks, generally they are more motivational in nature.

Keep in mind that NewtonTrino apparently has listened to hardly any, and those he has listened to were all from just one of many different companies that supplies these types of materials to Amway business owners.

Here's some examples, the last two I listened to.

One was by the President of Alticor, Amway's parent company, speaking at a N21 seminar in the US, which I was not at. He was talking about the challenges they've been undergoing in the US this past year (yeah, that's motivating!) and giving some historical background about similar issues in the past and how the corp responded. He spoke about where they've gotten things wrong and where the company is heading in the future.

NewtonTrino would have us believe that this kind of information is not valuable. BTW, I personally think this type of speech should be made available, free of charge, by the corp. Nevertheless, still extremely useful information.

The second one was by a top IBO and talking about how to properly create volume in a network and help individuals be profitable. He spent a deal of time talking about some very exciting new products we have, including Gensona genetic testing and patented and clinically tested and supported nutritional supplements targetted towards folk with a particular gene which makes them significantly more susceptible to heart disease. He also spoke about how focussing on exclusive products like this help you build a "passive" income since it's not available anywhere else, and won't be any time soon, and once you get customers on it, they're on automatic delivery programs, and because of their heightened risk unlikely to want to stop ordering. He also gave advice about how to go about marketing these and other products.

All good business advice.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Uh-huh, and would you say your examples are typical? How much did these cost again?

 

[jimbob]

...There is, in fact, an almost never ending supply of those - they are supplied by the population at a rate of about one per minute.

I'd disagree...

That will work initially, but the trouble is that these will then start to recruit, and this growth is going to eventually overtake the supply of mugs, who will be left fighting for a small selection of future mugs...

 

[jimbob]

There's a few factors here. First of all, as I mentioned, when your building a business with effectively zero inbuilt external motivators, then you need to have internal motivators. There's no external motivation such as a boss who will fire you or tens of thousands of dollars of lost capital investment if you don't work. Like any business it takes time to be generating a decent enough income where immediate cashflow is a motivator (and even then, money is intrinsically a poor motivator).

The motivation of making money? Especially if you need the extra money.
<snip>

Secondly, it's a lot more than just motivation. 52 cds is what - 40 hours? It's frankly a little insulting that you think there's so little to learn in this industry that you think 40 hrs is excessive. How many hours a year do professional in other industries put in to education? Heck, degrees can be 40hrs a week.

And do you think that 40 hours noninteractive listening to a set of CD's is going to substitute for proper training?

One was by the President of Alticor, Amway's parent company, speaking at a N21 seminar in the US, which I was not at. He was talking about the challenges they've been undergoing in the US this past year (yeah, that's motivating!) and giving some historical background about similar issues in the past and how the corp responded. He spoke about where they've gotten things wrong and where the company is heading in the future.

NewtonTrino would have us believe that this kind of information is not valuable. BTW, I personally think this type of speech should be made available, free of charge, by the corp. Nevertheless, still extremely useful information.

I know you were being sarcastic about it being "motivational", but you obviously felt motivated by it.

It seems like standard motivational stuff to me.

"Share" "information" about some past problems, and you seem sincere. "Together we can pull through"

Anyone else familiar with Despair.inc? I feel this link is appropriate

The second one was by a top IBO and talking about how to properly create volume in a network and help individuals be profitable. He spent a deal of time talking about some very exciting new products we have, including Gensona genetic testing and patented and clinically tested and supported nutritional supplements targetted towards folk with a particular gene which makes them significantly more susceptible to heart disease. He also spoke about how focussing on exclusive products like this help you build a "passive" income since it's not available anywhere else, and won't be any time soon, and once you get customers on it, they're on automatic delivery programs, and because of their heightened risk unlikely to want to stop ordering. He also gave advice about how to go about marketing these and other products.

All good business advice.

Again it sounds as if you pay to listen to propaganda. In reputable companies, company propaganda is freely distributed.

 

[icerat]

The motivation of making money? Especially if you need the extra money.

Did you read what I wrote at all? I covered why that's not a factor initially.

And do you think that 40 hours noninteractive listening to a set of CD's is going to substitute for proper training?

You don't believe lectures and seminars are at all useful in imparting knowledge huh?

I know you were being sarcastic about it being "motivational", but you obviously felt motivated by it,

It seems like standard motivational stuff to me.

"Share" "information" about some past problems, and you seem sincere. "Together we can pull through"

Right, and when some prospect asks "what about when this happened and the company did this?" - and you don't know about it. Knowledge about the past and future plans can indeed be motivational, but knowledge/training and motivation are not mutually exclusive arenas.

Again it sounds as if you pay to listen to propaganda. In reputable companies, company propaganda is freely distributed.

Amway pays for employee training for their employees. I am not an Amway employee. Amway does some product-oriented training for Amway business owners also, but like most franchise-like operations, the "franchisee" is responsible for the costs of running their business, including staff training.

I'm sure if I was running a corner store and bought a lot of my products from Coca-Cola, Coke would be happy to train me in their products. However, if I decided I wanted to expand and open a chain of corner stores and start employing staff or even franchising out "icerat's corner stores", Coca-Cola isn't going to pay to teach me how to do all of the things necessary to get it up and running and keep it up and running.

 

[NewtonTrino]

If you're trying to make the point that this kind of motivational training is "normal" and a regular accepted business practice.... well I don't know what to say, because it isn't. Yes companies do ongoing training (and franchises do a lot as well) but to characterize any of it as being similar to the Amway AMO's is pretty silly. Very little of it is motivational in nature and the sheer AMOUNT of it isn't in proportion to regular business practices.

 

[icerat]

I didn't say that at all. If you want to argue with yourself, go use a mirror please. What I said is that there's a lot more than just motivational material, which is the single facet you're trying to focus on, and that even in the motivational area this style of business has somewhat different requirements, especially in the early stages.

You're the one sitting here spreading BS based on what is obviously extremely limited knowledge and experience. I have outlined *many* times on this thread how my experience has been different to yours, you simply get abusive.

 

[Normal Dude]

Anyone else familiar with Despair.inc? I feel this link is appropriate

I liked the Ambition one so much I bought it.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Quit characterizing my experience as limited. I've been involved and paying attention to this business for almost 30 years. No I don't have a lot of experience with your N21 group. However, from your descriptions it sounds like same S different day. The main difference is that the newer AMO's have to put more work into their public image, but the tools money still seems to be there from simple calculations.

This motivational stuff is NOT normal. It's very much akin to religious dogma meant to brainwash listeners. In the old days of course it WAS partly religious in nature. I'll never forget watching Doug Wead speak (I've seen him live many many times) and listening to his famous God drawing the circles for Moses....

 

[icerat]

No I don't have a lot of experience with your N21 group.

Right, so you confirm you have little experience with the largest Amway organization in the world.

How about Top4, the second largest?

How about any of it's affiliates? Müller-Meerkatz World Wide Diamonds? Schwartz Organisation? Heckel? Plum Blussom? Soonye?

How much experience do you have with them?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Again, it's up to you to prove they aren't running the same scam as the "tainted" organizations. Anyone that gets involved with these people would do well to check them out carefully before getting involved. This is a business that destroys far more lives than it helps (due to it's very nature).

Anyway, you've already said that you DON'T CARE if they make tool profit. That's a classic symptom of brainwashing (unquestioning obedience). You call yourself a skeptic? But you don't CARE if they are lying to you about tool profits? And you don't want to do the math, back of the envelope style, to see just how much cash is flowing here? Brainwashing.....