Isn't it about time we learn the truth about Obama?

[BPSCG]

In my opinion, some the greatest patriots are those who love their country so much that they want to prevent it from doing the wrong thing.

That's a pretty weak definition, don't you think? Don't you think that most Americans love their country so much that they don't want it to do "the wrong thing"? Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn wanted to prevent America from doing the wrong thing and bombed government buildings in support of their convictions. Are they patriots?

Saying "My country is always right" is not good patriotism.

And who can you point to that claims it is?

 

[Darth Rotor]

In my opinion, some the greatest patriots are those who love their country so much that they want to prevent it from doing the wrong thing. Sometimes this means criticizing some other patriots. (Not all patriots agree on everything.)

Saying "My country is always right" is not good patriotism.

My stance is "My country, right and wrong"

not

"My country, right or wrong."

No country is perfect, but I'll take mine, thanks.

DR

 

[Myshkin]

I want the truth...NOW.

What is the truth?

What data would falsify the hypothesis "Obama is patriotic"? Where and how will we get this data? What metric will we use to put Obama in a patriotic/unpatriotic category?

Also, the question posits a false dichotomy.

 

[Hokulele]

That's a pretty weak definition, don't you think? Don't you think that most Americans love their country so much that they don't want it to do "the wrong thing"? Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn wanted to prevent America from doing the wrong thing and bombed government buildings in support of their convictions. Are they patriots?

In their minds, they probably are. From what I have seen, patriotism is mainly used as an excuse for what would normally be socially repugnant decisions, such as going to war. To me, patriotism should be equivalent to altruism, and in practice, it generally isn't.

And who can you point to that claims it is?

Bush came very close with his "either you are with us, or against us" comments.

 

[boloboffin]

The truth is, Obama is secretly a big fan of the Police Academy movies.

Produce your evidence or withdraw the claim.



ETA:

 

[Loss Leader]

What is the truth?

The truth is Knight Rider was a children's show.

 

[BPSCG]

That's a pretty weak definition, don't you think? Don't you think that most Americans love their country so much that they don't want it to do "the wrong thing"? Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn wanted to prevent America from doing the wrong thing and bombed government buildings in support of their convictions. Are they patriots?

In their minds, they probably are.

But are they in fact? In my mind, I am the Ultimate Golden Hunk God of Sex; there are many who would disagree. Someone is wrong. Ayers and Dohrn may think they are patriots; many, even most Americans would disagree. So what makes one a patriot?

From what I have seen, patriotism is mainly used as an excuse for what would normally be socially repugnant decisions, such as going to war.

Whether that's accurate or not (I don't believe it is), it doesn't say what patriotism is. It merely states something it's used for.

To me, patriotism should be equivalent to altruism, and in practice, it generally isn't.

Not sure what you mean by altruism. There's an American lady who has been using the Web to infiltrate al Qaeda from her own home. She's not sacrificing much - a couple of hours a day on the internet, which a lot of us here do ourselves. Would you say she isn't a patriot?

Bush came very close with his "either you are with us, or against us" comments.

Oh come on, that's just silly. He was speaking to foreign countries in that context, and no one demands patriotism from foreigners. Try again.

ETA: I just looked up the definition of patriotism. The best definition, IMHO is this one: "love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it..."

 

[Darth Rotor]

Oh come on, that's just silly. He was speaking to foreign countries in that context, and no one demands patriotism from foreigners. Try again.

While on the surface that was the context of his remarks, I sometimes wonder if that wasn't also aimed at a domestic audience.

DR

ETA: I just looked up the definition of patriotism. The best definition, IMHO is this one: "love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it..."

Aye, as presented in my reply to TB a bit further up.
ETA: oops, that was in another thread.

 

[Upchurch]

How often did they have to before they became intolerable?

I don't know. I suppose it is a matter of density. Once a month is quite different from once every couple of years.

I have no idea how often he spouted such nonsense. I'm going off the word of various parishioners who were interviewed saying that was not Wright's normal focus. Maybe they were telling the truth. Maybe they were covering up for him. I dunno.

That's not correct. Ayers hosted the campaign kickoff fundraiser for Obama's first State Senate run. That speaks to far more than a casual relationship.

Are you sure about that? All I can google is a reference that Ayers donated $200 to Obama's State Senate re-election fund during the time they were both board members of the Woods Fund of Chicago.

Even so, Elton John held a fund raiser for Clinton. Does that suggest they have far more than a casual relationship?

For that matter, if I donate $200 to each candidate, can I tell people I have a more than casual relationship with the next President? That would rock!

 

[Hokulele]

I will move your definition up to make the rest of my points more clear.

ETA: I just looked up the definition of patriotism. The best definition, IMHO is this one: "love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it..."

I agree with this definition, now let's see how it applies to your points.

But are they in fact? In my mind, I am the Ultimate Golden Hunk God of Sex; there are many who would disagree. Someone is wrong. Ayers and Dohrn may think they are patriots; many, even most Americans would disagree. So what makes one a patriot?

By your definition, Ayers and Dohrn would be patriots. I think where we differ is in what "love of country" means. Does it mean love of country as it currently stands (the old "love it or leave it"), or love of what you think
the country should be?

Whether that's accurate or not (I don't believe it is), it doesn't say what patriotism is. It merely states something it's used for.

See above.

Not sure what you mean by altruism. There's an American lady who has been using the Web to infiltrate al Qaeda from her own home. She's not sacrificing much - a couple of hours a day on the internet, which a lot of us here do ourselves. Would you say she isn't a patriot?

In your definition of patriotism, it is the willingness to sacrifice that is key, not the amount of sacrifice you ultimately make. I find the same is true of altruism. Patriotism seems to be altruism for a country and/or concept rather than towards an individual.

Oh come on, that's just silly. He was speaking to foreign countries in that context, and no one demands patriotism from foreigners. Try again.

The very first time I heard that speech, I thought it was quite clear he had an eye on the domestic opposition. This may have to be one of those agree to disagree topics.

 

[BPSCG]

I don't know. I suppose it is a matter of density. Once a month is quite different from once every couple of years.

Assuming you belonged to a church (work with me here...), how long would you stick around if your minister called on God to damn America, called it "the U.S. of KKK" (or something like that), and preached that the government invented the AIDS virus to kill blacks? One sermon wouldn't be enough?

I have no idea how often he spouted such nonsense. I'm going off the word of various parishioners who were interviewed saying that was not Wright's normal focus. Maybe they were telling the truth. Maybe they were covering up for him. I dunno.

Great. It wasn't his normal focus. He usually preached about other things. Again, how much is too much?

Are you sure about that? All I can google is a reference that Ayers donated $200 to Obama's State Senate re-election fund during the time they were both board members of the Woods Fund of Chicago.

Here you go.

Even so, Elton John held a fund raiser for Clinton. Does that suggest they have far more than a casual relationship?

If he held it in his own home, as did Ayers, I'd say yes.

 

[Upchurch]

Here you go.

If he held it in his own home, as did Ayers, I'd say yes.

You'll have to be more specific. I didn't see anything in that article about Ayers hosted the campaign kickoff fundraiser for Obama's first State Senate run in his own home.

I do see this from Obama:

This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago, who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis.

And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values, doesn't make much sense, George.

The fact is, is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who during his campaign once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death penalty to those who carried out abortions. Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn's statements? Because I certainly don't agree with those either.

 

[fishbob]

But are they in fact?

This is one of those concepts where there is not much in the way of fact.
Kind of like judging Olympic gymnastics - the evaluation often depends as much on the bias of the judge as on the ability of the gymnast.

 

[dudalb]

Well, that's it, I'm not voting for him! Any fan of Steve Guttenberg's "acting" is obviously the devil.

The Devil!

Does being a Guttenberg fan make Obama secretly a member of the Stonecutters Society?

 

[fuelair]

The truth is Knight Rider was a children's show.

Yeah..... Who was arguing against that ???

 

[chipmunk stew]

You don't know if someone is patriotic unless you know what's going on inside his head, or unless, given a zero-sum chance to choose between his country's welfare and his own, he chooses that of his country.

I think that's a pretty good test, but I'd change it a little. If he chooses the founding ideals of his country over his own welfare, then he's patriotic. I think people who would sell out the country are in the minority, particularly those who enter public service. Republicans have intentionally narrowed the concept of patriotism so they can use it as a wedge.

 

[BPSCG]

You'll have to be more specific. I didn't see anything in that article about Ayers hosted the campaign kickoff fundraiser for Obama's first State Senate run in his own home.

???

I do see this from Obama:

This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago, who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis.

Emphasis mine.So how often does he exchange ideas with an unrepentant urban terrorist?

And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values, doesn't make much sense, George.

No, but the fact that you still have any kind of relationship with him today does. You want to be head of the executive branch of the United States government, and yet you maintain a relationship with someone who is sorry he didn't bomb more government buildings than he did. How can you stand to be in the same room as he is?

The fact is, is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who during his campaign once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death penalty to those who carried out abortions. Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn's statements? Because I certainly don't agree with those either.

Speaking of detestable. He's putting political speech about a hypothetical penalty for performing abortions on the same moral plane as actually blowing up buildings.

ETA: All these verbal gymnastics to excuse Obama for hanging with a terrorist reminds me of a South Park episode I saw again the other night:

[South Park]
NAMBLA Leader: Rights? Does anybody know their rights? You see, I've learned something today. Our forefathers came to this country because… they believed in an idea. An idea called "freedom." They wanted to live in a place where a group couldn't be prosecuted for their beliefs. Where a person can live the way he chooses to live. You see us as being perverted because we're different from you. People are afraid of us, because they don't understand. And sometimes it's easier to persecute than to understand. [Stan and Kyle look at each other, then at the NAMBLA leader]

Kyle: Dude. You have sex with children.

NAMBLA Leader: We are human. Most of us didn't even choose to be attracted to young boys. We were born that way. We can't help the way we are, and if you all can't understand that, well, then, I guess you'll just have to put us away.

Kyle: [slowly, for emphasis] Dude. You have sex with children.

Stan: Yeah. You know, we believe in equality for everybody, and tolerance, and all that gay stuff, but dude, **** you.

Kyle: Seriously.
[/South Park]

Obama's first and last words to Ayers should have been, "Dude. You blow up buildings, so dude, **** you. Seriously."

 

[BPSCG]

Republicans have intentionally narrowed the concept of patriotism so they can use it as a wedge.

And your evidence for this is...

 

[chipmunk stew]

And your evidence for this is...

OMG!!! Where's his flag pin???!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hokulele]

And your evidence for this is...

You mean other than their treatment of John Murtha? Granted, they never came right out and said he is "unpatriotic" using that exact word, but they pretty much accused him of everything but.