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JEROME - Black holes do not exist

Nobody, including Phil Plait of Bad Astronomy, has been able to explain to me how they can ever form. My problem: as matter approaches the even horizon, where the escape velocity reaches the speed of light, from OUR point of view it falls at an asymptotically slower rate... in fact, from our point of view, nothing ever reaches it. The same would appear to be true of the matter on the surface of the collapsing star.

Phil did post an explanation in laymans' terms, but the umming and erring seems to indicate that even he doesn't find it totally convincing:
//www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/05/01/can-black-holes-ever-really-form/

So can anyone come up with a better explanation?
 
Jerome: I would be interested in citations to the papers that support your statement that gravity is not strong enough to form black holes.

Do you think that classical physics is wrong? Black holes are also a prediction of classical physics. Using Newton's Laws in the late 1790s, John Michell of England and Pierre LaPlace of France independently suggested the existence of an "invisible star." Michell and LaPlace calculated the mass and size — which is now called the "event horizon" — that an object needs in order to have an escape velocity greater than the speed of light.

I agree that the link to an artist's depiction of a black hole is not evidence for the black hole. What is your opinion of the other 3 links?

Perhaps you can tell us which of these 1300 black holes are not black holes?
 
Nobody, including Phil Plait of Bad Astronomy, has been able to explain to me how they can ever form. My problem: as matter approaches the even horizon, where the escape velocity reaches the speed of light, from OUR point of view it falls at an asymptotically slower rate... in fact, from our point of view, nothing ever reaches it. The same would appear to be true of the matter on the surface of the collapsing star.

When you say, "from OUR point of view" it takes forever, that's not really correct. Black holes actually form in a finite amount of time from anyone's point of view. People get very confused about this, but it's really not that mysterious. You only come to the infinite-time conclusion if you measure time by the time it would take for a light signal to reach you from something falling through the horizon. That time, naturally, goes to infinity at the horizon (by definition), but that does not mean the black hole hasn't already formed. Moreover it's not really true that you would never see something cross the horizon. What you actually see is that things get darker and darker, and the light from them gets redder and redder, as they approach a surface. Rather rapidly the light gets so dim and redshifted that you cannot see the object (even if it's emitting its own signals). It's true that the last signal you see will always have been emitted from a point slightly outside where the horizon was at that time, but the difference between that and seeing it "actually cross the horizon" is essentially zero. Remember, you cannot ever see it after it's crossed the horizon - by definition - so what else would you expect?

Let me make an analogy: suppose you had a river flowing down over a waterfall. As the water approaches the waterfall the current gets stronger and stronger, and the water flows faster and faster. Now supposed you were a fish living in that river above the falls, and you had no eyes - your only means of navigating was sonar. So you send your friend down the river to investigate, and she talks to you or sends little pulses of sound back to you as she swims around, telling you what she is observing.

Now if there is a point near the waterfall where the water is flowing faster than the speed of sound, that's a sonic horizon. As your friend approaches that point, the signals she sends (or sonar pulses you send which bounce off her) will take longer and longer to reach you (because the speed of sound relative to you, or to the banks of the river, goes to zero at the horizon). If she crosses it, you will never hear from her again (in fact unless she is capable of supersonic swimming she is going to fall off the waterfall), but you may continue to receive sound pulses from her for a long time, each arriving at increasingly longer and longer intervals (those are the pulses she emitted as she was about to cross the sonic horizon).

But from hearing those fading sounds you would certainly not conclude that it took her infinite time to cross the horizon, right? That would be wrong. You'd just understand that sound takes longer and longer to escape from a horizon, and that's why her signals took longer and longer to reach you.

For black holes the conclusion that it took infinite time is not as wrong - it's actually consistent, so long as the black hole doesn't evaporate - but you don't have to use that particular choice of time, and it's much more useful to think about black holes using other time coordinates. The only major difference with the river is that no signal can ever propagate faster than light, which means it's consistent to totally forget about the interior of the black hole, which means it's OK to use a time coordinate which goes to infinity on the horizon (but again, only if you ignore that fact that black holes eventually evaporate and disappear).

We had a long thread about this - I'll dig up the link to it.

EDIT - OK, here it is. The discussion starts with DrBaltar's post 226 of that thread (where he stated essentially the same confusion you have), in case that link doesn't take you there.
 
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Ii is not my fault that you do not know what redshift is and why it is important to understand what it means if it is not an accurate measurement.

I am sorry that you have not the ability to understand that those quotes are not in conflict.

Translation: "I know something you don't but I'll be damned before I tell you". Sounds like a cop-out to me.
 
Wow, did you miss the point. Of course other things bend light via gravity - that's part of the experimental support for general relativity. And what happens when you add more mass? Why, it bends the light even more. And at some point, when you add enough mass, it bends the light so much that the light cannot escape. That's a black hole. The only way to avoid having black holes is for general relativity to be wrong. Where and how, pray tell, do you think general relativity is wrong?

You have failed again. I doubt you understand why.

Then explain it.
Still waiting Jerome.
 
Drawing Credit: A. Hobart

:dl:


Art now qualifies as evidence for the existence of black-holes!!!
Jerome, the graphic is not the evidence in that link. The graphic is just a nifty visual representation of stuff that is difficult to take a visual picture of.

The evidence in that particular link is contained in the text below the graphic.


In the future, please consider reading a cited source before jumping to conclusions about it. Your response is just sloppy.


Ha! You forgot the obvious third option. Accept, rationalise away or ignore completely.
Mashuna has a point, Jerome. You have been asking for evidence that black holes exist and yet, with all the examples of evidence I have provided, you jumped to an incorrect conclusion on one link in an addendum post and ignored the main body of my argument.

If you are going to argue that no one has presented evidence for black holes, surely you need to actually address why the evidence we do provide is insufficient to the task.

I'll even repost my argument for you so you don't have to do all that scrolling:

Here are two examples of indirect evidence of black holes as well as explanations of why what we can observe about the situation indicates the presence of a black hole.

Straight from NASA, here is possibly the first direct evidence of a black hole's event horizon. Here is the more detailed press release from HubbleSite.org.

So, in the first one, we have evidence of something that acts like a black hole. In the second one, we have something that acts and looks like a black hole. Remembering that in space, no one can hear something quack like a black hole, I'd say hearing/feeling/tasting a black hole is unreasonable to ask for.

According to theory, we should expect to find objects that have certain properties. We have labeled these objects "black holes". The above sources quantitatively measure objects that have these properties. It is concluded that these objects are of the type that we label "black holes".

So, to re-ask Horatius's question: Jerome, why is this evidence insufficient?


Prediction:

"This evidence only proves the existence of a black hole if you first assume the existence of black holes."
 
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Given the extreme simplicity of this scientific concept and the fact that he has been presented with overwhelming evidence yet refuses to acknowledge that anybody has even tried to bring forth evidence in this thread, I have to wonder if he's really just pulling all our legs here?

Or is he just so stubbornly opposed to admitting he was wrong that his mind won't even let him read the evidence that has been presented?

I'm going to mention one last time that we have imaged stars at the center of our galaxy orbiting an invisible object with a calculated mass of 3 billion solar masses, which according to well-established laws of physics would be so massive that light would not be able to escape its gravity well. It's like looking at a video of a giraffe and trying to claim giraffes don't exist. Oh, those silly zoologists and their speculation.
 
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I think what we have learned is that for Jerome evidence is meaningless. His arguments are simply props in his ritualized self-deluding performance. The substance of the arguments themselves are, I think it's safe to conclude, relatively meaningless to him. All that matters is that he be in disagreement with some fundamental, well established and widely accepted aspect of learning. This allows him to imagine himself as uniquely insightful and superior in intelligence to others.
 
I think he's a kid. Maybe 11 or 12, with very religious and anti-scientific parents.

Just a guess.
 
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A DIRECT INSULT AGAINST A SPECIFIC POSTER IS CHEERED BY A MODERATOR!

:jaw-dropp

You can't coherently respond to evidence so you attempt to derail the conversation?

Noted.

Not derailed.

Any response to actual evidence, as copiously posted above?
 
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A DIRECT INSULT AGAINST A SPECIFIC POSTER IS CHEERED BY A MODERATOR!

:jaw-dropp
Oh NOES!!11! I shall now have to go give myself 40 lashes!


As GreyICE noted, back on topic: do you have anything to say about the evidence provided? Conceding would be fine, actually rebutting it (if you can) is also acceptable.

Note: simply claiming that it isn't evidence does not count as rebutting it.
 
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JEROME DA GNOME said:
Dancing David said:
I think I should also ask, are black holes a possibility but not demonstrated?
Exactly.
I've asked this of you JdG several times, and not once have you answered.

I'll try again.

What are the criteria you use, when assessing astronomical observations, to determine if they are 'evidence' for some interpretation or other?

What, for you, constitutes a 'demonstration', in respect of a conclusion derived from astronomical observations?
That was once; this is twice.

I've asked this of you JdG several times, and not once have you answered.

I'll try again.

What are the criteria you use, when assessing astronomical observations, to determine if they are 'evidence' for some interpretation or other?

What, for you, constitutes a 'demonstration', in respect of a conclusion derived from astronomical observations?
 
1.Gravity bends the path of light.

2. There are objects whose mass is so large that it would bend light's path so much that light can't leave the gravitational field. (2 is from the measurements of 1)

So what are you disagreeing with?

Another way of looking at it--

The escape velocity associated with a celestial body increases as the mass, and therefore gravity, of the body increases.

There is no upper bound on how much the mass can increase.

Therefore, at some point, the escape velocity will exceed the speed of light, and nothing can escape its gravity.

Unless there's some magical way of limiting mass (an unknown and unnecessary entity), or there is some unknown principle of gravity that somehow kicks in at a certain mass (ditto), black holes must exist.
 
Yes, but does it say anything that a star of that much mass must exist and must implode?

I know I'm arguing semantics, but I do so like clarity.

I don't think implosion is a necessary element. If a star burned out and still had sufficient mass that light couldn't escape it, then it would be a black hole whether it collapsed or not.

However, the laws of physics predict that if there is no longer fusion going on in an enormous star, the gravity becomes stronger than the electromagnetic force, and it will crush the atoms into neutrons. If the mass is even greater, it further crushes the neutrons down into...something, I'm not sure. A singularity?

Anyway, the neutron stars have been observed, singularities are a little trickier to spot.
 

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