Will Obama's Association with Bill Ayers Scuttle his Candidacy?

[BPSCG]

No, what you've got to focus on is the fact that, just like every other American politician, he doesn't always wear the Stars and Bars on his lapels.

If Barack Obama, or any other candidate were spotted wearing the Stars and Bars, even once, his polling numbers would suddenly look like Ralph Nader's.

Stars and Bars.

 

[Brainster]

Still, why judge a man's opinions by his clear statements of his opinions? That wouldn't give you the answer you want. No, what you've got to focus on is the fact that, just like every other American politician, he doesn't always wear the Stars and Bars on his lapels.

Ah, I forgot, politicians always tell the truth. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[chipmunk stew]

Ah, I forgot, politicians always tell the truth. Thanks for reminding me.

And the ones who wrap themselves in the flag are always the most patriotic.

 

[NotJesus]

Ah, I forgot, politicians always tell the truth. Thanks for reminding me.

Looks like you've figured it out. Obama secretly wants to destroy the U.S. Good thing his failure to wear a little pin gave it away.

 

[BPSCG]

Let's start with "[Michelle Obama] hadn't been proud of America even when we first landed on the moon."

For starters.

Yeah, as has been pointed out, she was five years old when men first walked on the moon. That still doesn't wash.

Note what she said: “For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is making a comeback.”

She didn't say, "For the first time, I am proud of what my country has done since I became an adult."

She said she has never been proud of her country during her adult life, until now.

I was born well after World War II. Yet I am proud of what my country did in that war. Aren't you?

Even if you give her fatuous remark the most charitable possible spin, one has to ask, was she not proud of America for winning the Cold War during her adult life? Wasn't she proud of our regular and orderly transitions of power based on the rule of law during her adult life? Wasn't she proud that we feed and defend the world during her adult life, that we lead in science and technology research during her adult life, that we help out in disasters wherever they strike in the world during her adult life?

Her claim that she's never been proud of America until now is quite consistent with her harsh assessment of America that she continues to spin in her public appearances, that America is "downright mean," that it deliberately rigs the rules of the game against blacks.

That's one down. Let's have your next "distorted reference."

 

[Just thinking]

Yes, she was five when the moon landing happened.

Soooo ... ? I've been proud of that event every day since it's happened. I'm proud to be a citizen of the country that helped win World Wars I & II, and I wasn't even alive when they took place. Has Mrs. Obama stayed at the tender young age of 5 all the years between the moon landing and when she made her heartwarming comment? Or might she actually in someway be cynical of being a US citizen?

 

[Brainster]

And the ones who wrap themselves in the flag are always the most patriotic.

Nope. In general, I would say that those who fly the flap or wear the lapel pin are more patriotic than those who don't but it's certainly not an "always" situation. You are trying to reduce it to a simple formula, but in fact it's a very complex issue. Dr. A wants to say, hey, he says he's patriotic, that proves it.

I think there are enough factors to warrant the unpatriotic label--the associations, the things his wife has said, the refusing to wear the lapel pin, the refusing to salute the flag. In his book, Dreams from my Father, Obama mentions a cousin talking about how tough things are in Kenya. His response? It's not much better in the USA. That certainly indicates a lack of patriotism, and an absurd lack of balance.

 

[Pookster]

Yeah, as has been pointed out, she was five years old when men first walked on the moon. That still doesn't wash.

Note what she said: “For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is making a comeback.”

She didn't say, "For the first time, I am proud of what my country has done since I became an adult."

She said she has never been proud of her country during her adult life, until now.

I was born well after World War II. Yet I am proud of what my country did in that war. Aren't you? ...

Edited: Misread the quote. I need to stop multitasking. *sigh*

 

[Dr Adequate]

If Barack Obama, or any other candidate were spotted wearing the Stars and Bars, even once, his polling numbers would suddenly look like Ralph Nader's.

Stars and Bars.

Oopsie, you're right. I thought it was a slang phrase synonymous with "Stars and Stripes". For some reason. Which I cannot adequately explain. Thank you for putting me right.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Ah, I forgot, politicians always tell the truth. Thanks for reminding me.

And yet I do not believe that that was what I actually said.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Dr. A wants to say, hey, he says he's patriotic, that proves it.

I believe that that is not what I wanted to say. Otherwise I believe that I should have said it.

You may have noticed how if I want to say something I say it.

I think there are enough factors to warrant the unpatriotic label--the associations, the things his wife has said, the refusing to wear the lapel pin, the refusing to salute the flag. In his book, Dreams from my Father, Obama mentions a cousin talking about how tough things are in Kenya. His response? It's not much better in the USA. That certainly indicates a lack of patriotism, and an absurd lack of balance.

Okay, let's pick 'em off one by one.

Guilt by association doesn't work against Obama any more than it works against McCain.

Obama does not refuse to wear the lapel pin, does he? He's probably worn it more often than you have.

Obama does not refuse to salute the flag, does he? Let's see when he refused to salute the flag. Tell me all about it.

And: "It's not much better in the USA"? You know what, maybe it isn't. I've visited Kenya, they seem to do OK. I'm not sure whether I'd rather be a black man in Kenya or a black man in America, 'cos I haven't looked at the statistics yet. But I would much, much rather be a black man in Barbados than in the US. I looked at the statistics. I should rather be a black man living on some little island making its money out of sugarcane and tourism than be a black man living in the richest and most powerful nation on earth.

America has failed in this respect. To balance out this statement, let me say well done with the thing where you put a man on the moon.

 

[Brainster]

And: "It's not much better in the USA"? You know what, maybe it isn't. I've visited Kenya, they seem to do OK. I'm not sure whether I'd rather be a black man in Kenya or a black man in America, 'cos I haven't looked at the statistics yet. But I would much, much rather be a black man in Barbados than in the US. I looked at the statistics. I should rather be a black man living on some little island making its money out of sugarcane and tourism than be a black man living in the richest and most powerful nation on earth.

Yeah, let's toss Barbados in there, shall we, even though Obama was talking about Kenya. Kenya, where the life expectancy is 56 years, where one in 16 adults has AIDS?

And of course, you'd rather be a black man living on Barbados than in the US; the question is should Obama? A guy who got a terrific education at the finest universities in America?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Yeah, let's toss Barbados in there, shall we, even though Obama was talking about Kenya. Kenya, where the life expectancy is 56 years, where one in 16 adults has AIDS?

And of course, you'd rather be a black man living on Barbados than in the US; the question is should Obama? A guy who got a terrific education at the finest universities in America?

Actually, the question was about his cousin. Who may possibly not have HIV, BTW, and whose life expectancy contributes to the national statistics rather than being determined by them.

As a True Patriot, do you think that Obama's cousin should have emigrated to the US? If so, please state your reasons.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Yeah, as has been pointed out, she was five years old when men first walked on the moon. That still doesn't wash.

Note what she said: “For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is making a comeback.”

She didn't say, "For the first time, I am proud of what my country has done since I became an adult."

She said she has never been proud of her country during her adult life, until now.

I was born well after World War II. Yet I am proud of what my country did in that war. Aren't you?

Even if you give her fatuous remark the most charitable possible spin, one has to ask, was she not proud of America for winning the Cold War during her adult life? Wasn't she proud of our regular and orderly transitions of power based on the rule of law during her adult life? Wasn't she proud that we feed and defend the world during her adult life, that we lead in science and technology research during her adult life, that we help out in disasters wherever they strike in the world during her adult life?

Her claim that she's never been proud of America until now is quite consistent with her harsh assessment of America that she continues to spin in her public appearances, that America is "downright mean," that it deliberately rigs the rules of the game against blacks.

That's one down. Let's have your next "distorted reference."

Now let's hear you say how ashamed and disgusted you feel about America 'cos of slavery and segregation.

Or is consistency too much to ask?

 

[Brainster]

Getting this thread back on track, here's a man who says Bill Ayers tried to kill his family:



Part II:



Here's an article by John Murtagh.

Note in the one video there's discussion of the Annenberg Challenge, an association between Ayers and Obama that hasn't been discussed here.

So to answer Corplinx's question up above, the associations between Obama and Ayers as we know them now:

1. Obama's first venture into politics began at the home of Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn with an introduction and fund-raiser.

2. Ayers donated a small amount to Obama's campaign for Congress.

3. Ayers and Obama appeared together on a panel in 1997 discussing juvenile justice. The panelists were chosen by Michelle Obama.

4. Ayers and Obama served together on the board of a charity for about 5 years.

5. Dohrn and Michelle Obama worked together at a Chicago-area law firm in 1988.

6. Ayers, Dohrn and Obama both spoke at a farewell dinner for Rashid Khalidi, a Middle-Eastern Studies professor.

7. Ayers was a founder of the Annenberg Challenge in Chicago. Obama chaired the Challenge

Oh, and the one that Obama admitted to in the ABC debate:

8. They both live in the same neighborhood.

 

[BPSCG]

Now let's hear you say how ashamed and disgusted you feel about America 'cos of slavery and segregation.

Or is consistency too much to ask?

Not that your request has the slightest thing to do with the thread, since I am not running for president, but:

I am ashamed of America's history of slavery and legally-backed segregation (AKA "Jim Crow laws"). They are a stain and a blot on our history. More, they are something that America haters and mass murderers will always be able to point at by way of excusing themselves and say, "Your hands aren't clean either."

But I am also proud that millions of Americans volunteered to fight and die in the cause of ending slavery. I am proud when I stand at Little Round Top on the ground Lincoln called "hallowed," where the 20th Maine Volunteer Regiment held the Union line and arguably saved not just the battle, but the entire Union cause. I can be proud even though this happened not only before I was born, but decades before my family even arrived in America. I regard those men as my spiritual forebears, more so than anyone who lived in France in 1863.

I am proud that our constitutional system of government was able to wipe out Jim Crow laws and laws against miscegenation (google Mildred Loving, or see LostAngeles's thread in Social Issues) and that the descendants of slaves could rise to our country's highest positions of power and responsibility, perhaps soon even the presidency itself. I am proud that even though we are a nation of men, and therefore imperfect, our national purpose is to make our country "more perfect," and we have never ceased in striving towards that goal.

There are things in American history that I am proud of and have always been proud of. And there are - thankfully - only a very few things that I am ashamed of - and have always been ashamed of.

Mrs. Obama apparently doesn't share my feelings about our country. I, for one, could not bring myself to be married to someone who never saw fit to be proud of America until she approached middle age.

 

[Brainster]

Actually, the question was about his cousin. Who may possibly not have HIV, BTW, and whose life expectancy contributes to the national statistics rather than being determined by them.

As a True Patriot, do you think that Obama's cousin should have emigrated to the US? If so, please state your reasons.

Let's rewind the tape here, shall we? Obama's cousin complains about conditions in Kenya. Obama says things aren't much better in the US. So the comparison is Kenya versus the US.

Please feel free to tell me why you think Barack is right, that things aren't much better in the US than they are in Kenya.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I am ashamed of America's history ...

UNPATRIOTIC!!!

You see how this works?

Mrs. Obama apparently doesn't share my feelings about our country.

Well, not unless you can quote her out of context saying that she's "ashamed of America's history" and then spin it a little.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Let's rewind the tape here, shall we? Obama's cousin complains about conditions in Kenya. Obama says things aren't much better in the US. So the comparison is Kenya versus the US.

Please feel free to tell me why you think Barack is right, that things aren't much better in the US than they are in Kenya.

Well, I haven't seen the original quote, which you haven't quoted, and I know nothing about Obama's cousin, but I think on balance it might be better to be black and American than black and Kenyan, and that therefore the non-quote that you haven't provided may well be overstating the case, if shorn of the context that you haven't provided either.

 

[Tailgater]

This cousin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raila_Odinga#Controversy

If so, I'm guessing he'd rather be in Kenya.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7375140.stm