Offer to the Truth Movement: Let's Settle It

[DC]

If someone is in a serious road accident and is rushed to hospital with severe head injuries are we surprised if that person dies? Not everyone hit by a car dies from their injuries but it can and does happen.

I would suggest that most people with any knowledge of construction would have watched the collapse of the towers with a degree of surprise but also acceptance that such a thing is not only possible but also is also very likely. It is this very possibility which leads firefighters to create collapse zones around severely damaged buildings.

'Truthers' would prefer to believe that multistorey steel framed structures cannot be brought down by anything other than controlled demolition or maybe earthquakes, simply because we have seen controlled demolition of large buildings and we have seen the damage caused by earthquakes. That is their sole frame of reference and there is something very strange about the mental capacity of some 'truthers' whereby if they haven't seen it before, they can't imagine it happening now.

bazants paper says

To structural engineers, the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers on 9/11/2001
came as the greatest surprise since the collapse of Tacoma Narrows Bridge in 1940. Immediately
after the aircraft impact, the structural frame behaved as expected, but not after the fire.

i dont say it cannot happen, but i think it was not the most likely thing to happen.

and no i dont think ALL the engineers where surprised....
but i doubt that the majority expected it.
and i think especially the firefighters did NOT expect it, atleast not those that runned all the way up the stairs to rescue peoples and fight the fires.

 

[uk_dave]

bazants paper says



i dont say it cannot happen, but i think it was not the most likely thing to happen.

The factors which caused the collapse of the Tacoma Narrows bridge were well understood prior to the actual collapse. Suspension bridges had been known to exhibit some of the features previously.

The quote you provided made my point. Engineers may be surprised in the same way that a doctor may be surprised if he/she loses a patient overnight, but that doesn't mean the doctor doesn't understand why the patient died, merely that it is a possibility the doctor had hopped he/she wouldn't have had to confront.

Engineers know that steel weakened by fire on top of pre-existing structural damage increases the likelihood of catastrophic structural failure. Perhaps if the fire could have been put out or, in the case of a smaller structure, some temporary structural support introduced during the firefighting operation, then maybe the structural failure doesn't occur.

But engineers WERE NOT staring at their TV screens on 9-11 saying "OH MY GOD that shouldn't be happening."

I know because I've spoken with two practicing structural engineers and asked them how surprised they were.

 

[psikeyhackr]

I also remind all parties to keep this thread respectful. I don't want to see any more disparaging of Dr. Greening.

Who disparaged Dr. Greening? I just said his paper was wrong on page 3. It's not my fault he forgot the basements. Its not my fault skyscrapers have to be bottom heavy.

That word. You keep using it. I do not think it means what you think it means.

von Neumann machine has two usages. Some people call his "Univeral Constructor" by that name. But it also refers to the basic design of almost all computers. So what would it mean to not encounter it at the world's biggest computer company in the 80s? That other usage is a nice distraction from the important one.

http://www.maxmon.com/1944ad.htm

psik

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

After reading the entry on it, I have to admit I've never heard of it. But it's not at all relevant to writing programs that aren't hardware intensive.

 

[R.Mackey]

That wasn't the kind of question I was looking for, but I'll answer it anyway, just this once. It was you who disparaged Dr. Greening, in posts like these:

In an exchange on another site someone brought up a link to an EXPERT that is so dumb I just had to share it. So far my google searches have not turned up anyone else pointing out this stupidity and I find that somewhat shocking. So let's see if anyone here can point out something wrong with my reasoning.

This is an exchange about the grammar school physics of the collapse.

Apparently the experts can get away with really dumb mistakes. [Followed by two links to Dr. Greening's work]

[...] FR Greening is a Canadian chemist. What is a chemist doing getting media time if he is talking about the energy of collapsing masses?

I found that to be pretty disrespectful. It's also puzzling given an earlier excerpt from your posts, one with which I agree completely:

I don't particularly care about Steven Jones or the NIST. I am not judging this on anybody's reputation. I am just talking about the physics.

Anyway, to re-rail, this thread is not about personal issues. Facts, science, technical questions, those are what this is for. Particularly those questions that did or could convince you that Sept. 11th was or was not a government conspiracy.

I hope that clarifies the intent, again. Let's keep this discussion constructive and free of bickering.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Would it be helpful if we debunkers ask a question which, answered satisfactorily, would convince us that 9/11 WAS an inside job? Just to keep things fair.

Anyway, I have asked such a question of truthers many times and have gotten few responses, certainly no reasonable ones. That question is:

"Can you describe a straightforward, logical hypothesis that is consistent with all the evidence and which points to 9/11 being an inside job?"

Seems like a simple question, but it never fails to stump people.

 

[psikeyhackr]

this thread is not about personal issues. Facts, science, technical questions, those are what this is for. Particularly those questions that did or could convince you that Sept. 11th was or was not a government conspiracy.

"facts, science, technical questions"

Doesn't the quantity of steel and concrete on every level fit into that category?

I was looking at Bazant's paper a few hours ago. He has got this mass per unit height variable where the bottom of the building supposedly has little less than 50% more mass than at the top. But isn't steel going to behave differently than concrete. And looking at the column information on Lon Water's site indicates that the difference in the steel must be a lot greater than 50% between the top and the bottom. But I haven't done calculus in more than 20 years. I would have to spend weeks brushing up to wade through the equations in that paper.

All of this inside job and conspiracy theory crap is irrelevant. SCIENCE is supposed to be a TRUTH MOVEMENT. But I consider it to be totally ridiculous that most people aren't insisting on data accurate to at least 5% on the quantity and distribution of steel and concrete in the towers. For the life of me I can not think of a single reason why that shuld be difficult to get on some of the most famous buildings in the world even before 9/11. James Burke started his Connections TV series from there back in 1978.

What is the difficulty? But no, there is something wrong with you for asking for some simple data. Be a good little boy. Think what you are told. Don't ask questions.

psik

 

[henkbein]

To R.Mackey:

9/11 commission report states that Cheney was not in command at PEOC until approx. 9:55.
The report does not mention N. Mineta's statement ('50-30-10 miles out') about Cheney being present at approx. 9:20.
Some facts are against Mineta, for example:
- White House transcript
- White House notes
- White House record, PEOC Shelter Log, Sept. 11, 2001
- USSS report, "Executive Summary: U.S. Secret Service Time line of Events" Oct. 3, 2001
- USSS memo, OVP 9/11 Timeline, Nov. 17, 2001

My question: what is your opinion about Mineta (until July 7, 2006 your secretary of transportation).
Is he demented, does he have reasons to lie, does he tell a simple truth, or do you have another explanation ?

 

[DGM]

To R.Mackey:

9/11 commission report states that Cheney was not in command at PEOC until approx. 9:55.
The report does not mention N. Mineta's statement ('50-30-10 miles out') about Cheney being present at approx. 9:20.
Some facts are against Mineta, for example:
- White House transcript
- White House notes
- White House record, PEOC Shelter Log, Sept. 11, 2001
- USSS report, "Executive Summary: U.S. Secret Service Time line of Events" Oct. 3, 2001
- USSS memo, OVP 9/11 Timeline, Nov. 17, 2001

My question: what is your opinion about Mineta (until July 7, 2006 your secretary of transportation).
Is he demented, does he have reasons to lie, does he tell a simple truth, or do you have another explanation ?

He was mistaken on a very confusing day?

 

[henkbein]

Explanation seems too simple. Does the US allow such persons to become secretary of transportation ?

 

[adoucette]

Knowing the number of each type of panel would make it possible to figure out where the transitions occur and give more exact data on perimeter weight per level. But I regard this as another example of the snow job. How could they make a 10,000 page report and not specify the quantity of each type of perimeter wall panel? That has to be deliberately left out.

There is no point in this level of data IN THE REPORT since NIST was not trying to model the collapse progression.

NIST does provide the column schedules for the fire/impact floors for both towers.

See NIST NCSTAR 1-5G Appendix B. Column Schedule.

That level of detail data that you are asking for was used in building the Global Model though, and so it should be available via the NIST FEA model data (which, though not spelled out in the report is available from NIST)

Arthur

 

[Disbelief]

Explanation seems too simple. Does the US allow such persons to become secretary of transportation ?

Obviously. Do you think that every elcted or appointed person is going to act perfectly in such a high pressure situation? Many, many good people crack under pressure.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Explanation seems too simple. Does the US allow such persons to become secretary of transportation ?

Have you seen our current President?

 

[henkbein]

Obviously. Do you think that every elcted or appointed person is going to act perfectly in such a high pressure situation? Many, many good people crack under pressure.

Why would Mineta crack. He was simply summoned by the White House.

 

[beachnut]

Why would Mineta crack. He was simply summoned by the White House.

The Mineta stuff is real science. You have cracked the case with this non event. This is your big question, smoking gun, evanescence; Of what?

There is not one serious, rational, logical reason this means anything about 9/11. No real meaning to all of 9/11. The Mineta non-event, a red flag indicative of no evidence on 9/11.

What great made up fantasy does this Mineta stuff go with? The fact is no truther can tie this to anything of value. When will a truther expand on this failed branch of 9/11 truth?

 

[uk_dave]

Why would Mineta crack. He was simply summoned by the White House.

Why do you accept one persons testimony when it is contradicted by all other testimony?
Why do you accept the assumptions made by one man who was an observer to the unfolding situation, over the informed testimony of those engaged in dealing with the situation?
Why would the conspirators make the mistake of allowing Minetas testimony to be given and/or made public if it would arouse suspicion about their own account?
Why are you so very desperate to believe that something 'fishy' happened in the PEOC that you will pin your entire case on one observers faulty memory and uninformed assumptions?
Why, for the love of god, WHY?

 

[gumboot]

and i think especially the firefighters did NOT expect it, atleast not those that runned all the way up the stairs to rescue peoples and fight the fires.

That's not entirely true.

By 9:30 a.m., after both planes had struck, a rumor was circulating that a third hijacked plane was headed to New York. Assistant Chief Joseph Callan recalled feeling the north tower move. "I made the decision that the building was no longer safe," the chief told the Fire Department's oral history interviewers.

"All units in Building 1," he announced over the radio at 9:32. "All units in Building 1, come out, down to the lobby. Everybody down to the lobby."

Dwyer, J., Flynn, K. and Fessenden, F.; Fatal Confusion, New York Times, July 7 2002

Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby, I made a decision that the building was no longer safe. And that was based on the conditions in the lobby, large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20 foot high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking. There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower.

Interview with Assistant Chief Joseph Callan
Conducted by NYC Fire Marshall Michael Starace, 2 November 2002

I was in a discussion with Mr. Rotanz and I believe it was a representative from the Department of Buildings, but I’m not sure. Some engineer type person, and several of us were huddled talking in the lobby and it was brought to my attention, it was believed that the structural damage that was suffered to the towers was quite significant and they were very confident that the building’s stability was compromised and they felt that the north tower was in danger of a near imminent collapse.

I grabbed EMT Zarrillo, I advised him of that information. I told him he was to proceed immediately to the command post where Chief Ganci was located. Told him where it was across the street from number 1 World Trade Center. I told him ‘You see Chief Ganci and Chief Ganci only. Provide him with the information that the building integrity is severely compromised and they believe the building is in danger of imminent collapse.’ So, he left off in that direction.

Interview with EMS Division Chief John Peruggia
Conducted by Ron Castorina, 25 October, 2001

John came to me and said you need to go find Chief Ganci and relay the following message: that the buildings have been compromised, we need to evacuate, they're going to collapse. I said okay. I went down Vesey Street towards West.

Q. You were by yourself?

A. I was by myself, me and my helmet and my radio. I got to the corner of Vesey and West. I found some EMS vehicles. I think I saw Chief Gombo there.
I'm not really sure. I mentioned to the EMS people there, again, not knowing who they were, I said you need to get away from here, the building might collapse, we need to leave this spot.

As I was walking towards the Fire command post, I found Steve Mosiello. I said, Steve, where's the boss? I have to give him a message. He said, well, what's the message? I said the buildings are going to collapse; we need to evac everybody out. With a very confused look he said who told you that? I said I was just with John at OEM. OEM says the buildings are going to collapse; we need to get out. He escorted me over to Chief Ganci. He said, hey, Pete, we got a message that the buildings are going to collapse. His reply was who the **** told you that? Then Steve brought me in and with Chief Ganci, Commissioner Feehan, Steve, I believe Chief Turi was initially there, I said, listen, I was just at OEM. The message I was given was that the buildings are going to collapse; we need to get our people out. At that moment, this thunderous, rolling roar came down and that's when the building came down, the first tower came down.

Interview with EMT Richard Zarrillo
Conducted by Ron Castorina, 25 October 2001

My Thayer School engineering training came back, and I realized that with that intensity of heat in a building in which the steel girders were insulated with asbestos, it had to collapse within one hour. I called the fire department, police, etc. and told them the building was guaranteed to collapse. I was told that 911 was only for emergencies, and I should call somewhere else.

Ray C. Dougherty, Professor of Linguistics, New York University
Email to his Dartmouth College alumni mailing list, 11 September 2001

 

[psikeyhackr]

Center of Nonsense

There is no point in this level of data IN THE REPORT since NIST was not trying to model the collapse progression.

That level of detail data that you are asking for was used in building the Global Model though, and so it should be available via the NIST FEA model data (which, though not spelled out in the report is available from NIST)

Arthur

That report has pages and pages about what company manufactured what components and when it was delivered and so many trivial details it is ridiculous. What would it take to provide the 12 numbers specifying the quantity of each type of perimeter wall panels? TWO SENTENCES?!?!

One of the most incredible scenes form 9/11 was the top of the south tower tilted and surrounded by a cloud of dust. Wouldn't you think that to analyze that they would mention the center of mass or center of gravity? So I searched my DVD download of the report to see what turned up. Definitely not what I expected.

Center of mass is only used 4 times and the only real object it references is the airplane. It appears that they were extremely concerned about ceiling tiles and devoted an entire report to them. The only Interesting thing about it that I can tell is that the plane decelerated at 60 g's and came to a stop in 0.63 seconds. Suspended ceilings must be of major concern in the collapse of a 500.000 ton building.


NCSTAR 1-5D Ceilings.doc (offset 34)
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5D.pdf
Reaction of Ceiling Tile Systems to Shocks

center of mass page 77(*3)

Some of the airplane debris would not likely have traveled this far into the tower, while some parts of the plane and some of the fuel passed through the building and exited the far side. It was, therefore, assumed that the center of mass of the airplane penetrated slightly more than one-half of the tower’s depth. Assuming that the center of mass of the airplane is located at approximately the center of its length, the center of mass of the airplane would have traveled approximately 197 ft (60 m) between when the nose impacted the face of the tower and when the airplane remnants came to rest.

center of mass page 79

where, x p (t ) was the position of the center of mass of the airplane at time t. Given the initial and final velocities of the airplane and the differential displacement, described above, Equations 2–3 and 2–4 were solved to determine the acceleration parameters. The estimated peak acceleration of the airplane was found to be –62g (–610 m/s2), and the estimated duration of the impact was found to be 0.63 s. The resulting acceleration history is shown in Fig. 2–45.

An entire report about ceiling tiles but they can't tell us the number of wall panels. I don't comprehend what seem to be excuses for the NIST to me.

They don't use the term "center of gravity" in relation to any real physical object from 9/11. They only use it in explaining how they configured their simulation software in specifying columns for the simulator. I find this truly amazing for a 11,305 page report that took 3 years. I guess the centers of mass and gravity don't matter for the tons of material that were hurled hundreds of feet from the buildings.

NCSTAR 1-6.doc (offset 82)
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-6.pdf
Structural Fire Response and Probable Collapse Sequence of the
World Trade Center Towers

center of gravity page 182

Shell elements were used to model the plates comprising the box column and the spandrels. Rigid elements connected the center of gravity of the column to its component plates and the spandrel at both the top and the bottom of the model. The column was simply supported in three directions at the bottom and simply supported in the horizontal directions at the top. Increments of axial displacement were applied at the top of the model.

center of gravity p186

In the ANSYS panel model, beam elements replaced shell elements to model the columns, while shell elements were used to model the spandrels, and beam elements attached the center of gravity of the columns to the mid-plane of its corresponding spandrel component at each shell element through the depth of the spandrel.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

NCSTAR 1-6C.doc (offset 48)
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-6C.pdf
Component, Connection, and Subsystem Structural Analysis

center of gravity page 44

Four-node finite strain shell elements were used to model the plates of the column and the spandrels. Nodes of column plates at the top and the bottom of the model were rigidly tied to the center of gravity of the column cross section. The column was pinned at the bottom and fixed in the two horizontal directions at the top. Increments of axial displacement were applied at the top of the model at room temperature and 700 ̊C.

center of gravity page 216

The model also represented Column 151 from Floor 96 to Floor 97 since the dimensions, plate thicknesses, and material properties were identical to those of Column 151 from Floor 95 to 96. SHELL181 plate elements modeled the plates of columns and spandrels. CERIG rigid elements connected the center of gravity of the column to its component plates and to the spandrel at both the top and the bottom of the model. The column was pinned at the bottom and restrained in the two horizontal directions at the top. Axial displacement was applied incrementally at the top of the model.

center of gravity page 222

To capture the gravity load effects from upper floors (those above Floor 99), internal forces and moments at midheight of the columns between Floors 99 and 100 in the LERA SAP2000 global model, caused by dead plus 25 percent of design live load, were applied as loads at the tops of the corresponding columns in the exterior wall model at the [/b]center of gravity[/b] of the columns. To capture the gravity load effects from individual floors, floor loads were extracted from the LERA SAP2000 floor model and applied to each column.

center of gravity page 222

For columns that were modeled by BEAM189 elements, temperatures were provided for nodes at the center of gravity of the column, and their linear gradients transverse to the exterior wall were also provided. Gradients parallel to the wall were found to be negligible. Temperatures for SHELL181 elements were provided at each node. NIST did not always provide temperatures for the bolts at column splices. When bolt temperatures were provided, they matched temperatures at the nearest interior or exterior tips of columns.

All of the page numbers refer to the PDF pages, not the official NIST page numbers.

psik

 

[applecorped]

center of insanity

 

[psikeyhackr]

center of insanity

My shrink says that too.