Tisk, tisk, for shame!

[dudalb]

The problem with all this warm and fuzzy talk about "Building Trust" is no one has ever shown me why the Hell I should trust somebody who is a proven liar, and all too many of the Truthers have a long record of being exactly that.

 

[jandarian]

Gumboot: Not a cult? I am not sure how you define the word then. All the classic signs are there: Isolation, sense of Superiority, false acceptance from within the group, inability to see the world outside as having importance, less able to relate to outsiders, sense of impending doom, constant reinforcement from 'elders' in their group that they are right, should not trust, that they are part of the solution, while others are all part of the problem...These are behaviours we can see displayed by so many posters on these boards. And these are classic cult behaviours. You don't have to be a cult, to behave, and therefore traumatize the way a cult does.

One could point to Jref boards as a place to find those behaviors as well, which is an entirely different topic.

dudalb: i certainly hear your point there. But my posts were about finding ways to let them see they can trust you, not necessarily the other way around.

Any one else ever notice, how the critical thinking crowd often displays the same superior, "I know the truth" attitude that they so often chide others for? Seems no matter where humans find personal validation, they can't help but treat others with disdain they view are not like them.

What world are we living in when offering someone a hand out of a dark hole is described as Haight/Ashbury psychobabble?

 

[T.A.M.]

jandarian:

The problem is largely that Alex Jones offers them Koolaid, we offer them water. AJ offers them "Patriot Games" "Matrix" and "Bourne Identity" while we offer them "Technical Manual of science and mathematics".

Face it, offering them the facts, the truth, reality...well it is boring. For a group dominated by young men, boring old science and reality just doesn't cut it.

So we could present them with all the facts and science in the world...it just doesn't compare to "I am part of a small group of people who know the real truth about the big bad government, and I am working to bring them down."

TAM

 

[gumboot]

Gumboot: Not a cult? I am not sure how you define the word then. All the classic signs are there: Isolation, sense of Superiority, false acceptance from within the group, inability to see the world outside as having importance, less able to relate to outsiders, sense of impending doom, constant reinforcement from 'elders' in their group that they are right, should not trust, that they are part of the solution, while others are all part of the problem...These are behaviours we can see displayed by so many posters on these boards.

No it's not. The key feature of a cult is missing - namely a group. Conspiracy Theorists are masters at trying desperately to disassociate with each other. They're the very antithesis of a cult.

 

[Magenta]

It's easy enough to say how other people should modify their posting style. Maybe Jandarian could try interacting with the truthers on the forum and demonstrate what s/he thinks is the better way to deal with them.

 

[jandarian]

Magenta: That's a very fair position. One i think I will take to heart. Although I have preferred to actually work directly with these people at their rallies and events, as well as putting a lot of time in chat rooms having direct conversations. I am sure I can be useful on an internet forum as well..then again, maybe not. Perhaps that disconnect between face to face and internet is what makes a connection so much harder. Good point Magenta, thanks for calling me on it.

ah Gumboot: I take it by the mammoth amount of posts, you're not getting out to the rallies and events much? It's just an assumption. Of course its based on thousands of hours of video online of groups of people, dressed the same, shouting the same rheotric, handing out materials like they were Witnesses or something and in general behaving in a very cult like way. But ok..i respect your opinions either way. i would love to know tho what your doing outside of the net to contribute. Perhaps there is something I can learn.

Why should we contribute? I don't know, it seems these people, ie the Alex Jones, Acharya S's and Dylan Avery's of the country are causing some real damage, so if 'thinking' people have an opinion, if they feel strongly enough to post 15 messages per day on average, perhaps they could face the realities of that aforementioned internet disconnect and get up and do something to help out. That's not a real judgement of character there, just an observation of how much time some people seem to have and how they appear to use it.

 

[Stellafane]

Hi Jandarian. I think you bring up what could, in another context, be an interesting point. But I'm not sure how much it applies to the reality of the truther/debunker interaction that generally occurs in this forum. As others have pointed out, the very vast majority of truthers come here not to learn or debate (although some do start out pretending to want to do this). Instead, they seem intent on playing what can only be called very juvenile games by insulting us, throwing out totally discredited "facts," ignoring responses however well-reasoned, and so on. It's the internet equivalent of toilet papering someone's lawn. Thus I see truthers as far more akin to a virtual gang, rather than a cult. And although cult members may engender some sympathy, gang members in my opinion deserve none.

 

[ktesibios]

Umm, gumboot... I think that the characteristic you're citing- the pronounced tendency of CTers to cast each other into outer darkness over obscure points of dogma- actually reinforces jandarian's comparison to cults.

Isn't the tendency to schism at the drop of a hat also characteristic of religious movements?

Also, while we probably have some data on the demographics of troofers based on the people who go swanking around in black t-shirts and chanting, what confidence can we have that this impression applies to CTers, especially of the AJ devotee variety, in general? Lacking solid information about that crowd, I certainly wouldn't want to start making generalizations like the ones you've made.

I move that jandarian be appointed to deal with it the next time a CTer comes a-bargin' in with a major chip on his shoulder, a series of bizarre claims and a demand that they all be proven wrong, as we've lately seen in a few recent threads. A little empirical testing of the hypothesis that " a soft answer turneth away wrath" might not be a bad thing to try.

 

[jandarian]

ktesibios: I suppose if I call attention to the style of response to these people it would only be fair that I try and be an example. If for no other reason than I would like the chance to practice in a forum setting. As I said at the outset, i tend not to jump in on forum discussions much because the personal connection isn't so easy to create in a short amount of time. In a more personal setting, you can actually find out why they have that chip, and who they really are as a person...a person, not just throw them into a group and assume they cannot be anything else.

i feel i should show Gumboot some respect here, as I have been taking in a lot of his posts, and he is true to his word in that he has spent some time trying to offer an open attitude. So I do recognize that. My OP wasn't a scathing review of anyones behaviour, just a reminder that frustrations were starting to show.

Not sure where else we really need to go with this, as in the end I appreciate that there are people on Jref spending their valuable time trying to make a difference. I just wanted to give pause for a little reflection. Even critical thinkers can lose perspective sometimes.

 

[Stellafane]

ktesibios: I suppose if I call attention to the style of response to these people it would only be fair that I try and be an example. If for no other reason than I would like the chance to practice in a forum setting. As I said at the outset, i tend not to jump in on forum discussions much because the personal connection isn't so easy to create in a short amount of time. In a more personal setting, you can actually find out why they have that chip, and who they really are as a person...a person, not just throw them into a group and assume they cannot be anything else.

i feel i should show Gumboot some respect here, as I have been taking in a lot of his posts, and he is true to his word in that he has spent some time trying to offer an open attitude. So I do recognize that. My OP wasn't a scathing review of anyones behaviour, just a reminder that frustrations were starting to show.

Not sure where else we really need to go with this, as in the end I appreciate that there are people on Jref spending their valuable time trying to make a difference. I just wanted to give pause for a little reflection. Even critical thinkers can lose perspective sometimes.

Hi Jandarian. I don't think many of us here would argue with the preceding post, and its quite reasonable (if not particularly profound) reminder "to give pause for a little reflection." On the other hand, in your OP, with its much more strident language ("...a trend on these CT boards that is disturbing: a total lack of understanding of the CT mind, and in general the cult mind... you veteran posters...are really in need of being checked here...your frustrations are getting the better of you...") I find less with which to agree. I don't think it's an accurate representation of what's really going on in this forum, as I mentioned in my previous post. Nor do I think it's very fair, necessary, or to be perfectly blunt, useful.

 

[gumboot]

ah Gumboot: I take it by the mammoth amount of posts, you're not getting out to the rallies and events much?

I don't know how you could assume that. Gravy had more posts than me and yet for a long period of time he spent every Saturday debating with people at Ground Zero. I just type fast.

There's no rallies or events over here to get out to, 9/11 Conspiracy Theories are not very relevant over this way.

It's just an assumption. Of course its based on thousands of hours of video online of groups of people, dressed the same, shouting the same rheotric, handing out materials like they were Witnesses or something and in general behaving in a very cult like way.

I'd agree that particular "cells" of 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists display cult-like symptoms, but this is not overly surprising - you'll find "cults" amongst any interest group - Star Trek fans, sports fans, model aircraft makers... what I take issue with is your proposal that the entire truth movement is a cult, when in reality there is no truth movement but merely a collection of various groups and individuals whom in general terms believe 9/11 CTs, but have very little cohesion and indeed hate each other more often than not.

Why should we contribute? I don't know, it seems these people, ie the Alex Jones, Acharya S's and Dylan Avery's of the country are causing some real damage, so if 'thinking' people have an opinion, if they feel strongly enough to post 15 messages per day on average, perhaps they could face the realities of that aforementioned internet disconnect and get up and do something to help out. That's not a real judgement of character there, just an observation of how much time some people seem to have and how they appear to use it.

I'd humbly suggest you actually take note of where people live before demanding they "do something". A lot of us don't even live in North America. Also, I firmly disagree with your statement "the Alex Jones, Acharya S's and Dylan Avery's of the country are causing some real damage". They're not. Dylan Avery is a smart ass kid that no one could care less about, Alex Jones is a career nut job that people laugh at, and Acharya S is your standard religious nutjob.

It's important to keep these things in perspective. Certainly, the odd person is fooled by their garbage. But their actual impact on society is negligent. Alcohol, lack of exercise, dangerous driving, the Iraq War, firearms, AIDS, cancer... the list of things that actually are damaging to society is vast, and any one of them is infinitely more damaging than every 9/11 nutjob combined.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I take it by the mammoth amount of posts, you're not getting out to the rallies and events much?

Well to be fair, niether are the truthers, unless you call two people standing on a street corner waving a placad a "Rally"

 

[gumboot]

Umm, gumboot... I think that the characteristic you're citing- the pronounced tendency of CTers to cast each other into outer darkness over obscure points of dogma- actually reinforces jandarian's comparison to cults.

Isn't the tendency to schism at the drop of a hat also characteristic of religious movements?

Absolutely, but religious movement =/ cult.

Let me explain using religion, since it's a good example.

Christianity has hundreds of splinters in its history, and anyone would agree it's a religious movement.

You might be right in claiming the Exclusive Brethren is a cult, and you'd be even more accurate to claim a particular church or group is a cult - I personally know of a few people who have been in these cults and just about anyone could name a particular church in their town that is very cult-like.

However you'd be totally wrong to claim Christianity was a cult.

Likewise, a particular 9/11 CT group may qualify as a cult (say, CIT for example) and I'd be willing to accept the possibility (although it's hard to know without inside knowledge). However I think it's wrong to claim the 9/11 Truth Movement as a whole is a cult.

So basically, it's wrong to assume a 9/11 Truther is a cult victim just as it's wrong to assume a Christian is a cult victim.

I hope that clears up my position.

 

[PhantomWolf]

it seems these people, ie the Alex Jones, Acharya S's and Dylan Avery's of the country are causing some real damage

Only they aren't. Most people have never heard of them and most of those that have think they are a joke. Less than 5% of the US think that 9/11 was done by the Government. That is not "real damage"

 

[gumboot]

ktesibios: I suppose if I call attention to the style of response to these people it would only be fair that I try and be an example. If for no other reason than I would like the chance to practice in a forum setting. As I said at the outset, i tend not to jump in on forum discussions much because the personal connection isn't so easy to create in a short amount of time. In a more personal setting, you can actually find out why they have that chip, and who they really are as a person...a person, not just throw them into a group and assume they cannot be anything else.

i feel i should show Gumboot some respect here, as I have been taking in a lot of his posts, and he is true to his word in that he has spent some time trying to offer an open attitude. So I do recognize that. My OP wasn't a scathing review of anyones behaviour, just a reminder that frustrations were starting to show.

Not sure where else we really need to go with this, as in the end I appreciate that there are people on Jref spending their valuable time trying to make a difference. I just wanted to give pause for a little reflection. Even critical thinkers can lose perspective sometimes.

You may not be aware, but a thread with the general thrust of yours is created every couple of months and has been for a good year. Frustrations have not just started to show; they have been in the glaring light of day for some time.

It's a combination (I think) of annoyance, boredom, a widening gap between the knowledge of those here and your regular Conspiracy Theorist, a bit of intellectual/technical elitism, and so on.

I have to admit I'm starting to find the threads about this behaviour as tiring as the behaviour itself...

 

[jandarian]

Then why so much response? Why bother to create a debate over something you yourself seem aware is happening? Quite honestly, I felt I would share that feeling I was having, and probably wouldn't get much response.

Keep in mind of course, as i already shared, I spend a lot of time dealing directly with people of various truth, CT and religious bents, and just felt there was some aggression around the boards that did seem elitist and disingenuous. I didn't need to be right, it was just how I was feeling after putting a few hours the other night on myspace, dealing with the CT folks that push their thing there. Although to be clear, i do think I am right or i wouldnt have come out on the boards after hanging here for a year in silence.

If you think you're up for it, I challenge you to spend some time with the chat crowd. It's tough and thankless, but I feel its important, if for no other reason, it shows a broader perspective of the real reach of these CT, religious and Truth folks.

Since Dylan's reach came up, I'll just say, 50,000 dvd's sold so far, many more given away (although true we actually cannot give any number there), many many TV, Radio and internet appearances, and thousand of torrent downloads. I would say, that after chatting with hundreds of new names a week, many of whom mention the show in one way or another, coupled with the numbers above, i fail to see how that doesn't prove some level of reach worthy of concern.

Phantom, i respect the 5% stat, not sure where its coming from, but thats not the point. It's not just 9/11 truthers that we are talking about here. I merely mentioned 3 people that spread woo, I don't think anyone would likely disagree the world is filled with woo-folk, by the millions, for ages now. The crafters, recruiters, and neophytes (for lack of a better term) make their way in here, and all too often seem to be pushed right out. This leads to a debate I think of the entire forum, and i won't pretend to be able to contend with that. ( I'm obviously already treading in dangerous waters by merely mentioning the tone Ive seen in here.)

Last year, when I first came in, right from the start I noticed it. That same belittling nature that's all too often displayed by folks who take themselves too seriously. That had quite a bit to do with why I didnt bother to contribute, I knew that no matter what my input was, there would be some kind of backlash coming more from some people's need to be validated, then a genuine desire to communicate.

Okay, that was preachy, and I am done. I'll go back into the shadows. As a professor of mine once said, "..never get in the way of intelligent people in need of validation, you'll only end up in need of a new definition of the word."

 

[gumboot]

Then why so much response? Why bother to create a debate over something you yourself seem aware is happening? Quite honestly, I felt I would share that feeling I was having, and probably wouldn't get much response.

Like I said, we're bored.

Keep in mind of course, as i already shared, I spend a lot of time dealing directly with people of various truth, CT and religious bents, and just felt there was some aggression around the boards that did seem elitist and disingenuous.

That's because there is.

If you think you're up for it, I challenge you to spend some time with the chat crowd.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Since Dylan's reach came up, I'll just say, 50,000 dvd's sold so far, many more given away (although true we actually cannot give any number there), many many TV, Radio and internet appearances, and thousand of torrent downloads. I would say, that after chatting with hundreds of new names a week, many of whom mention the show in one way or another, coupled with the numbers above, i fail to see how that doesn't prove some level of reach worthy of concern.

The first Lord of the Rings trailer had seven million downloads in the first 24 hours alone. 50,000 DVD sales, X million downloads, may sound impressive, but not amongst six billion people.

The only reason you see hundreds of people who know of his work is because you're specifically talking to 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists. In the seven years since 9/11 I have met a grand total of one believer of 9/11 CTs in person. One.

Other posters here (Americans too) can give you similar stories. Most people, unless they actively seek out Conspiracy Theorists, will not come across more than one or two in person.

The crafters, recruiters, and neophytes (for lack of a better term) make their way in here, and all too often seem to be pushed right out. This leads to a debate I think of the entire forum, and i won't pretend to be able to contend with that. ( I'm obviously already treading in dangerous waters by merely mentioning the tone Ive seen in here.)

You're aware that this is only one subforum right? There's a multitude of forums here discussing every imaginable type of woo and snakeoil and arguments about what is or isn't woo.

Okay, that was preachy, and I am done. I'll go back into the shadows. As a professor of mine once said, "..never get in the way of intelligent people in need of validation, you'll only end up in need of a new definition of the word."

See now you're coming across as elitist, condescending, and belittling. Everyone is guilty of it at times, aren't they?

 

[Stellafane]

...As a professor of mine once said, "..never get in the way of intelligent people in need of validation, you'll only end up in need of a new definition of the word."

And as The Dude once said, "You're not wrong Walter. You're just an [something uncomplimentary]."

 

[dudalb]

See now you're coming across as elitist, condescending, and belittling. Everyone is guilty of it at times, aren't they?

Not to mention that for a newcomer to come in to a website and start lecturing people who have been there for a long time on the errors of their ways is not a good idea.

 

[jandarian]

Yes Gumboot, it was cranky of me. At least I am working to fit in.

The chat crowd referred, rather vaguely I guess to the aforementioned myspace chat. Which, before that is dismissed as pointless, is very relevant. Mysapce has at any one moment 100s of boards featuring people from all over the world, of quite a diverse range of ages, races and bents. Dylans work comes up as a topic quite often, certainly more than LoTR anyway.

Dubalb, I stand my by OP. No lecture was intended, and I didnt really expect to have to engage in a debate about it. I noticed it, shared it, and was preparred to move on about it. It garnered some response, and that perhaps took me by surprise. Again, perhaps its the chatter in me, that I would approach it from that point, and perhaps too, forums can be a boring enough place where people will gladly respond to anything at times.

Well, thanks for responding, and no disrespect was intended. I know very well how impossible believers in woo-craft and such can be. I appreciate these boards and will myself try and take a more patient approach.

(might help if i don't do these things in the middle of the night. Raising 4 kids during the day, and chatting/boarding in the wee hours is making me cranky i think)