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Whose Associations Are More Unsavory: Obama's or McCain's?

None of these apply with regard to Rezko. Rezko was known to be under investigation for influence peddling when Obama approached him about the land deal. The association was direct and voluntary. Ditto with Ayers; Ayers' past was well known in Chicago. Obama chose or allowed others to choose Ayers' house as the place where he was introduced to Chicago Democratic activists.

Everyone in Chicago in the political and power circles has at least 14 skeletons in their closet. Is Obama not supposed to ever make a business transaction for fear that the guy he's buying from will be the next person the FBI nabs?

And I am still not buying the Ayers thing. He went to the home of a crusty old academic who was an active radical back when it was cool. Reagan was once asked about extremists or radicals who pledged their support to him. He replied something like "if they want to get behind my agenda, and push my ideas, I am all for it".
 
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Everyone in Chicago in the political and power circles has at least 14 skeletons in their closet. Is Obama not supposed to every make a business transaction for fear that the guy he's buying from will be the next person the FBI nabs?

And I am still not buying the Ayers thing. He went to the home of a crusty old academic who was an active radical back when it was cool. Reagan was once asked about extremists or radicals who pledged their support to him. He replied something like "if they want to get behind my agenda, and push my ideas, I am all for it".

The association goes only one way in that case; Reagan was not saying he'd get behind their agenda and push their ideas. And if Ayers had repented his actions (as have many of the '60s radicals), then I would say, okay, we all make mistakes.
 
All the Candidates can pull out of their hats, admired, well known people who support them...So what.

Likewise, all the candidates can pull out of their hats, nasty, vile, despicable people that support their opponents...so what.
It's American politics, T.A.M. That's just how they apparently like to do things down there. Be thankful you only have to put up with the absurdities of Canadian politics (which, while definitely having its low moments, does seem to be conducted at a somewhat higher level than American politics for the most part... though Harper does seem to be trying his best to bring American-style politics to Canada).
 
Karl Rove takes up the story ...
Oh, citing Karl Rove is either trolling or just plain stupid. His notoriety may have made him in hot demand, but why should we want to listen to him?

As to the rest of your post, I agree. I find many things to like and admire about John McCain as a man, no matter how much people such as dudalb and corplinx whine about the fanaticism that I supposedly display by liking Barack Obama better.
 
Oh, citing Karl Rove is either trolling or just plain stupid. His notoriety may have made him in hot demand, but why should we want to listen to him?

His success as a political consultant has made him in hot demand. Listen, don't listen, it makes no difference to me. I pointed out who the source was specifically so that you could make that decision before clicking on the link.
 
His success as a political consultant has made him in hot demand. Listen, don't listen, it makes no difference to me. I pointed out who the source was specifically so that you could make that decision before clicking on the link.
I think you are being slightly disingenuous. You're a McCain supporter, and you posted that story because it reflected well on McCain.

The trouble is that you chose to quote this story out of the mouth of someone whom many people reagard as sleazy and dishonest. I have to wonder why.
 
So when Liddy is brought up, it's "interesting". "go on.. go on". But when it's Day, it's irrelevant?

Interesting...

go on...go on...

Touche...

However, please count the number of threads I have started on bad mouthing a candidate, or bring into question the Candidate based on associations. I have, in fact, called for all sides to do so, and in my posts, I commented on both Chipmunk and Brainster. I agree, I too fell pray to it, but at least for me, it was out of fatigue provoked weakness...

Still...touche.

TAM:)
 
It's American politics, T.A.M. That's just how they apparently like to do things down there. Be thankful you only have to put up with the absurdities of Canadian politics (which, while definitely having its low moments, does seem to be conducted at a somewhat higher level than American politics for the most part... though Harper does seem to be trying his best to bring American-style politics to Canada).

Yes, I have got to agree while our politics is far from angelic, it is not even comparable to American Politics.

To you yanks...I love you guys, and I think your country is great...a bastion of hope around the world (save the last 7 years or so). But godamnit, I hate your politics.

TAM:)
 
Yes, I have got to agree while our politics is far from angelic, it is not even comparable to American Politics.

To you yanks...I love you guys, and I think your country is great...a bastion of hope around the world (save the last 7 years or so). But godamnit, I hate your politics.

TAM:)
Doc - you ougtta BE an American politician with that horrid little post. Reach into your black bag and take something. Then take another. Call us in the morning.

So you don't live here, haven't experienced America but hate our politics - and yet you somehow feel perfectly qualified to bash our female Democratic candidate while at the same time, cooing and goo-goohing over Obama?

MEDIC!!!
 
Doc - you ougtta BE an American politician with that horrid little post. Reach into your black bag and take something. Then take another. Call us in the morning.

So you don't live here, haven't experienced America but hate our politics - and yet you somehow feel perfectly qualified to bash our female Democratic candidate while at the same time, cooing and goo-goohing over Obama?

MEDIC!!!

lol...please do not take offence.

Take a look at Canadian politics, as I have yours. Follow our politics as I have followed yours, and see if you reach the same conclusion.

I do not feel qualified to do anything but voice my opinion on it CS. Have I started a thread on anything here in Politics? Have I started the bashing on any of them? Have I started a blog on it? Have I actively campaigned on American politics?

I have followed your elections for the last year very closely...likely more closely then 90% of your own populous. I have been to your country, I have not lived there but your people are not all that different from ours. We are multicultural, as you are. We are predominantly white christians, as you are. We are a democracy, like you are.

We are much more alike, as people, then we are different. And yet, from what I have seen, our politics are fairly different, IMO.

Please stop with the barb about her being female, if that was your intent. I have no problem with you guys electing a female for president. I would have 100% no problem if the prime minister of our country were a woman from here on in....

TAM:)
 
Here is what I do not like about American Politics...

1. Character assassination
2. Politics of Fear
3. Guilt by association
4. Obsession with triviality.
5. Politics of self entitlement

To name a few....like I said, in Canada we still have SOME of those things, but in my experience, to a much lesser degree.

Some of it could be that your media blasts EVERYTHING out of proportion, and keeps track of everything, minute by bloody minute...our media does not tend to do this.

TAM:)
 
I think you are being slightly disingenuous. You're a McCain supporter, and you posted that story because it reflected well on McCain.

The trouble is that you chose to quote this story out of the mouth of someone whom many people reagard as sleazy and dishonest. I have to wonder why.

And you're griping because I gave proper attribution to the story? I have to wonder why.

Despite the liberal cocoon you may find yourself in, where everybody tut-tuts whenever Rove is mentioned and curses him for his evil genius in getting Bush elected, there are outlying provinces and hinterlands where the man's name is not a watchword for diabolical plotting. Your confirmation bias is showing, and so, perhaps, was mine when I gave the attribution.
 
And you're griping because I gave proper attribution to the story? I have to wonder why.

Despite the liberal cocoon you may find yourself in, where everybody tut-tuts whenever Rove is mentioned and curses him for his evil genius in getting Bush elected, there are outlying provinces and hinterlands where the man's name is not a watchword for diabolical plotting. Your confirmation bias is showing, and so, perhaps, was mine when I gave the attribution.

There are outlying provinces and hinterlands where the KKK are accepted, where 9/11 truth is gospel as well...lol

Just sayin.

TAM;)
 
Here is what I do not like about American Politics...

1. Character assassination
2. Politics of Fear
3. Guilt by association
4. Obsession with triviality.
5. Politics of self entitlement

To name a few....like I said, in Canada we still have SOME of those things, but in my experience, to a much lesser degree.

Some of it could be that your media blasts EVERYTHING out of proportion, and keeps track of everything, minute by bloody minute...our media does not tend to do this.

TAM:)
And yet you join in the fray of the very things you despise in the 5 points above. Just like you know me as a strong Hillary supporter, I know you have no problem stooping to bash her with trivialities. I've seen your posts, Doc. It's there. If NO BASHING is such a high and mighty ideal with you - then why do you direct that very activity at Hillary Clinton?
 
1. Where do I try to assassinate her character. I may say I do not like her tactics, I may say I do not like her behavior, but where have I tried to say she is a bad american, a bad person? Where have I said she would be unfit or unprepared to be president? Where have I tried to make her guilty by association?

2. Where have I ever played the Politics of Fear?

3. Where have I ever exhibited a fascination or a "harping on" of the trivial? When did I ever compile a list of trivialities on any of the candidates. When did I ever become obsessed with the use of lapel pins, or recipes stolen from the food network???

4. When did I ever say Obama is ENTITLED to the nomination? Where have I posted in a mannner that would make you believe that I feel he is entitled to the nomination, except for perhaps because he is winning in all the key metrics that most people would consider to be valid?

You may have a partial point that I engage in "bashing", but not a strong one...if so, please show me the offenses? The rest of the 5 points I made, I do not believe I engage in.

TAM:)
 
1. Where do I try to assassinate her character. I may say I do not like her tactics, I may say I do not like her behavior, but where have I tried to say she is a bad american, a bad person? Where have I said she would be unfit or unprepared to be president? Where have I tried to make her guilty by association?

2. Where have I ever played the Politics of Fear?

3. Where have I ever exhibited a fascination or a "harping on" of the trivial? When did I ever compile a list of trivialities on any of the candidates. When did I ever become obsessed with the use of lapel pins, or recipes stolen from the food network???

4. When did I ever say Obama is ENTITLED to the nomination? Where have I posted in a mannner that would make you believe that I feel he is entitled to the nomination, except for perhaps because he is winning in all the key metrics that most people would consider to be valid?

You may have a partial point that I engage in "bashing", but not a strong one...if so, please show me the offenses? The rest of the 5 points I made, I do not believe I engage in.

TAM:)
Just odd. You're not making a lot of sense. You stated you hate our yank GD politics. Fine. I can live with that, so can anyone. But if you hate our politics so much, then why the completely lopsided support you've shown for a particular yank candidate? Remember - you hate our politics. He (Obama) is a yank politician. Yet you are completely partisan to him, and negative to Hillary. They're all politicians.

If you really do have this high and mighty superiority complex about Canadian politics and despise American politics - what's all the commentary about? You're not going to tell me that you believe Obama is a "different" kind of politician, are you? That would show up your naivety. There are no different kinds of politicians. There's only the one: The RAT kind. And politics hasn't changed to any great degree since Homo Ergaster was tramping around East Africa.
 
Guilt by association is invalid only in certain circumstances:
<assorted drivel>
Somebody posted a while back the question of why Republicans are treated as idiots. This post exemplifies the reason: Complete lack of critical thought, or lack of value placed upon critical thought. Even the barest minimum of analysis shows why "guilt-by-association" is properly considered to be a fallacy:

1) Strange how the criminal justice system does not ever charge a person for actions committed by friends or family. They may try a person for intentionally providing aid that was used to commit a crime, but not for being friends with a criminal, or for acting in a civil manner toward a criminal. The bottom line is that one is not accountable for actions (or alternately negligence) one did not commit.

2) It displays an appalling naivete to claim that no friendships occur between individuals of differing ethics, religions, political party affiliations, etc. I for one, despite being a militant atheist and “liberal” to the point of Socialism, nevertheless have one longtime friend whose beliefs may be placed within the purlieu of the religious right. Since such friendships do exist, one cannot claim that any two individuals...who happen to be friends...are similarly responsible for advocating a particular position.

3) Claims that friendship implies omniscience with respect to another's viewpoints are likewise extremely puerile. The human mind commonly elicits an emotional response when faced with disagreement. Because of this, it is frequently taboo in society to discuss potentially controversial subjects. Likewise, the vast majority of us who maintain friendships with those of strongly differing opinions do not always choose to debate, press, or elaborately detail those differences for the sake of avoiding strife. Without which, the full extent of another's beliefs cannot be known.

4) Beliefs are not static. One has only to show conversion statistics regarding religion or party affiliation to demonstrate this. The entire existence of rhetoric (in its classic definition as writing meant to persuade) assumes this. The entire existence of political campaigning presupposes this.

5) Friendships are not static. A person who was a close and personal friend for over a decade who then moves out of contact for a year and a half is then what? Still a close, personal friend. How well are they known during this absence? Similarly if an individual becomes preoccupied with a given task, relationship, or cause such that they have very little time to devote toward other friends or relationships then it is not reasonable to expect expansive knowledge of these others during that period.

To claim that guilt-by-association is valid, that one individual is necessarily responsible for and aware of the beliefs of another, is to deny these truths, and to spit upon the fundamental nature of skeptical inquiry.
 
On a side note, still eagerly awaiting description of how McCain went out of his way to court the political endorsement of John Hagee, a man who has publicly advocated genocide (something not even the worst offenders of the weather underground did).
 
Just odd. You're not making a lot of sense. You stated you hate our yank GD politics. Fine. I can live with that, so can anyone. But if you hate our politics so much, then why the completely lopsided support you've shown for a particular yank candidate? Remember - you hate our politics. He (Obama) is a yank politician. Yet you are completely partisan to him, and negative to Hillary. They're all politicians.

If you really do have this high and mighty superiority complex about Canadian politics and despise American politics - what's all the commentary about? You're not going to tell me that you believe Obama is a "different" kind of politician, are you? That would show up your naivety. There are no different kinds of politicians. There's only the one: The RAT kind. And politics hasn't changed to any great degree since Homo Ergaster was tramping around East Africa.

Perhaps I am not...to you. Perhaps not to anyone else. I guess I need to make myself more clear.

Of the three candidates currently running for president, I find Obama to be the candidate who I see as best able to move your country forward and in a positive direction in terms of Foreign policy. I find his demeanor, the way he addresses people and issues, and the way speaks to be most in tune with the vision I have for the leader of the most powerful free world country. His attitude towards negotiation and diplomacy both with allies AND enemies, is to be admired, not ridiculed as Naive.

I find that unless DRAGGED DOWN INTO the gutter by other politicians, Obama TRIES more than the others, to remain above the fray. I find McCain this way as well, but his surrogates make up for it, and he is for continuing the war...the latter is why I could not get behind him.

So in a nutshell, I find that Obama tries harder, and is more successful at not engaging in the "typical" politics, which is the politics that I hate. Is he a "different" kind of politician? Maybe, may be not. He certainly talks it differently. he certainly TRIES to walk it differently...IMO.

As for my "superiority complex" concerning canadian politics, I don't think that is so. I find our politics much more civil...is that superior? I find our politics more boring....is that superior? I find our politics much less important...is that superior?

Nice to know though, that you think of Hillary as a RAT! (and Obama as well)

as for "yank" I do not mean any offense by it. Is it considered by most Americans to be offensive? I honestly did not know it to be such...

TAM:)
 
Here's another associate of John McCain's that you should be aware of, Colonel Bud Day.





Day served his country in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. Shot down in 1967 over North Vietnam, Day was captured by NVA soldiers. He escaped and managed to elude capture for 10-12 days despite having a right arm that was broken in three places, and found his way past the DMZ to South Vietnam. Unfortunately, he was recaptured by the Viet Cong.

Karl Rove takes up the story today in the Wall Street Journal:



Colonel Bud Day has endorsed John McCain for president.
Neat. You mean, the guy who survived a POW camp with McCain actually endorsed him?!? That's absolutely unexpected and startling!
 

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