Tisk, tisk, for shame!

[X],

At the moment, however, the CTists present are not actually interested in answers, but in the confirmation of pre-concieved notions.
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I am proud to call myself a member of the Truth Movement (Associate member of 911 Truth and Justice). I am also proud to say that I am a conspiracy theorist. I know for a fact that sometimes two or more people conspire together to commit illegal acts. Having said this I must say that I am VERY interested in answers. If all or any of my questions can be answered with some kind of verifiable evidence: i.e. video, documentary, photo evidence etc, then of course I am willing to adjust my understanding accordingly.
They reject categorically the possiblity of being wrong.
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Nobody can be 100% sure of absolutely everything that happened on and prior to 9/11. I will tell you and all members reading this right now that it is certainly possible that my understanding of the events of 9/11 (or lack thereof) can be wrong. Its a complicated issue with a lot of contraversy. I think the U.S. is one of the fairest and best countries in the world. It is easy to see that only when one starts to compare it to many other countries. With all the corruption that does go on in the U.S. the grass is certainly not greener on the other side. In many countries people who vocally oppose the government are taken out and shot. Plain and simple. Who on these boards would at least acknowledge just the possibility that certain members of the 9/11 Commission or any other investigation upon which it was based were more interested in protecting the government from liability than doggedly getting at all the facts of the case. Who here would even admit for a second that the events of 9/11 helped to advance a pre existing war agenda particularly in Iraq?
If someone comes by legitmately and honestly seeking answers, they shall find them for the asking.
Although they might find themselves re-directed to a thread or website which contains a discussion of the subject matter. Hopefully they won't feel they are being brushed off. It's just that nobody wants to answer the same claim over and over again. Especially ones that can be easily researched.
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I believe this is fair. Anyone expecting others to make the effort to address their questions could not ask for anything more.
 
jandarian,

You seem like a reasonable person and I would be interested in hearing any opinions that you would feel comfortable with sharing regarding the events of 9/11.
 
dommyboysinjapan said:
[X],


I am proud to call myself a member of the Truth Movement (Associate member of 911 Truth and Justice). I am also proud to say that I am a conspiracy theorist. I know for a fact that sometimes two or more people conspire together to commit illegal acts. Having said this I must say that I am VERY interested in answers. If all or any of my questions can be answered with some kind of verifiable evidence: i.e. video, documentary, photo evidence etc, then of course I am willing to adjust my understanding accordingly.

Nobody can be 100% sure of absolutely everything that happened on and prior to 9/11. I will tell you and all members reading this right now that it is certainly possible that my understanding of the events of 9/11 (or lack thereof) can be wrong. Its a complicated issue with a lot of controversy. I think the U.S. is one of the fairest and best countries in the world. It is easy to see that only when one starts to compare it to many other countries. With all the corruption that does go on in the U.S. the grass is certainly not greener on the other side. In many countries people who vocally oppose the government are taken out and shot. Plain and simple. Who on these boards would at least acknowledge just the possibility that certain members of the 9/11 Commission or any other investigation upon which it was based were more interested in protecting the government from liability than doggedly getting at all the facts of the case. Who here would even admit for a second that the events of 9/11 helped to advance a pre existing war agenda particularly in Iraq?

I believe this is fair. Anyone expecting others to make the effort to address their questions could not ask for anything more.
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I stand corrected then. We do seem to have an honest CTist here. I apologize for broad-brushing you.

ETA: If you want information that will likely answer several of your concerns, start here. There is a wealth of information on that site and others it links to.
Search through the site for your questions, as there's a good chance you'd be directed there anyways. If you have questions that aren't discussed, or require clarification, fell free to ask the members here.
 
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jandarian said:
I appreciate where you are coming from Gumboot, but unless you've ever been charged with helping teens recover from the trauma of cultism, you likely cannot relate.
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Um... say what?

I'm sorry, but you don't seem overly familiar with Conspiracy Theorists. The vast majority are just angsty teenagers and will grow out of it all in due time. Frankly I think playing "battle the NWO" online is a far healthier way to rebel against "the man" than unprotected sex, drug taking, dangerous driving, binge drinking, or any one of a dozen other stables of teenage rebellion.

There's a LOT of people here arguing the official account of 9/11 who started on the other side. Most of the CTers are kids who will follow in their own time.

There's another bunch who are professional CTers. They've usually got an axe to grind, and always got a buck to make. Dr Griffin, Dr Jones, Alex Jones, and so forth. I'm about 95% certain these people know what they're saying is garbage.

Finally there's the last group which are the people who appear to actually be mentally ill, and for whatever god forsaken reason just happen to have latched onto the 9/11 CT. The level of mental illness seems to vary from those who are just sociopathic and paranoid (I'm thinking people like "Killtown") to the out and out nutjobs who should frankly be pitied.

There is no 9/11 cult. None. Nada. These people do not display any of the most basic characteristics of cultism. Most notably, they will turn on each other at the drop of a hat.


jandarian said:
The folks who have been bamboozled by the woo crafters are in serious need of both those things.
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The only ones in the above groups who have been bamboozled are the ones rebelling, and the only thing they're in serious need of is time. They will mature in their own time, I'm guessing probably within a week or two of finding a girlfriend or a real job.

It seems your entire approach is based on the premise that 9/11 CTs are some sort of cult, that those believing said CTs have been brainwashed by the leaders of this cult, and are victims who need help.

I couldn't disagree more. I think you're entire analysis suffers from the old problem:

"If you're only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

Obviously you have experience with cults. Great. There's no 9/11 cult. Your experience does not apply to this group of people.
 
jandarian said:
Yes, indeed, you seem to be aware that there is a need in these 'truthers' to be accepted. When we accept them as people, and not just Tools, it can make the dialog mean more than just a debate.
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The last thing they want is to be accepted. Nothing infuriates an angsty teenager more than their parents encouraging and accepting whatever ghastly activity they've taken up in order to rebel.

For what it's worth, if you've been following the threads on these forums as you claim you'll notice that I always give every new poster the benefit of the doubt, and when they display a refusal to learn (such as A-Train, Swing Dangler, to name a couple) I simply stop exchanging posts with them.
 
dommyboysinjapan said:
Who on these boards would at least acknowledge just the possibility that certain members of the 9/11 Commission or any other investigation upon which it was based were more interested in protecting the government from liability than doggedly getting at all the facts of the case. Who here would even admit for a second that the events of 9/11 helped to advance a pre existing war agenda particularly in Iraq?
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I think you'll find that many people on this subforum have expressed precisely these two above points on numerous occasions.

It's quite obvious that the Bush administration had ambitions in Iraq. It's also quite obvious that 9/11 assisted in those ambitions. The problem is when people make the leap of concluding therefore that the Bush administration had something to do with 9/11 happening in the first place. This does not follow logically, and there is no a shred of evidence to support it.
 
gumboot said:
The last thing they want is to be accepted. Nothing infuriates an angsty teenager more than their parents encouraging and accepting whatever ghastly activity they've taken up in order to rebel.
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OMG! That's it! We should all become members of the Truth Movement immediately and start bonding procedures! "So when's the next march at Ground Zero? What are we wearing? Can we get those T-Shirts wholesale?"

As soon as parental figures take up a cause, it truly is dead. Ladies and Gentlemen, start your YouTubery.
 
gumboot said:
The last thing they want is to be accepted. Nothing infuriates an angsty teenager more than their parents encouraging and accepting whatever ghastly activity they've taken up in order to rebel.

For what it's worth, if you've been following the threads on these forums as you claim you'll notice that I always give every new poster the benefit of the doubt, and when they display a refusal to learn (such as A-Train, Swing Dangler, to name a couple) I simply stop exchanging posts with them.
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Is that why we never talk anymore? >sob<
 
jandarian;

Apparently you have been reading for over a year but you have been slow on the uptake. You don't seem to be aware of who the truther players are here. Mark Roberts left this sub forum because there was no evidence of any truthers wanting to actually learn anything. Mostly just ineducable trolling. If you look at the current threads you yourself are directing us to you will find very few if any looking for answers. At this point 7 years later they are mostly trolls debating semantics. I don't know what side of the fence you are on but you seem to take the position of a hands off child psychologist who lets their children run loose like bulls in a china shop oblivious to the effects of their behavior on others. And yes with a bit of height ashbury flower power psychobabble thrown in for effect.
 
I think that the tolerance level for those CTers that pop in here is too low. It's my impression that when a new one of them shows up and tries to explain why we are so wrong, the snide comments start flying. While I think that the snide comments usually are validated in time, I'm not sure we should be so quick with them.

Example: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112400

By the 5th post in the thread a "Fail" image (which is a great image) appears and it goes downhill from there. Now in that case, I don't doubt that it would have gone downhill, I'm just questioning the speed in which we get there.

I'm also aware that from long experience that anyone who comes here declaring they are going to convince us of the truth is pretty much hopeless. However, I'd like to hold onto the hope that maybe, just maybe a few of those people could be de-truthified if we didn't almost immediate start piling on.

If we could delay the piling on and snide comments until the person has 15 posts or so, there might a chance to reach some of these people. As long as we continue to get derisive so quickly they will put up defenses, stick fingers in their ears and start saying "La, La, La" to drown us out and there is no chances of getting through to them.
 
Spindrift said:
While I think that the snide comments usually are validated in time, I'm not sure we should be so quick with them.

Example: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112400

By the 5th post in the thread a "Fail" image (which is a great image) appears and it goes downhill from there.
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Yeah, I posted the image (it is an awesome one. Hehehe). While I see what you are saying...

ronpaulisright said:
Try to tell me how stupid they are and provide you proof of claim. I bet you can't.
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He started it.
colbert.gif
 
ElMondoHummus said:
One down, several hundred more members of the JREF "Cult" to go! Bwa-hahahaha!

Who's next? :degrin:
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I hate to tell you, but if you're getting rid of the mice the next step up the food chain for those of us with cat avatars are the bunnies. :p
 
gumboot said:
I think you'll find that many people on this subforum have expressed precisely these two above points on numerous occasions.

It's quite obvious that the Bush administration had ambitions in Iraq. It's also quite obvious that 9/11 assisted in those ambitions. The problem is when people make the leap of concluding therefore that the Bush administration had something to do with 9/11 happening in the first place. This does not follow logically, and there is no a shred of evidence to support it.
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That is the exact sentiment I was about to express. Since you already have let me just say 'here, here'.

I for one am also really tired of seeing "free fall speed" since it immediatly shows that the poster does not understand basic physics (the relationship between speed, distance, time and accelleration) let alone the vague "near free fall" or the ridiculous "faster than free fall".
 
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