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Tisk, tisk, for shame!

jandarian

Scholar
J
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
93
Hi People,

I tend to do a lot of reading, not too big on jumping in. That said, I have noticed a trend on these CT boards that is disturbing: a total lack of understanding of the CT mind, and in general the cult mind.

So many of you veteran posters, who I know have been through this stuff too much to want to help the new generations of the gullible, are really in need of being checked here.

These people that come on here are looking for answers. Were you expecting them to come with evidence? Of what? We know they have been woo'ed; but they don't. They've been instilled with the sense that they are hero's, taking on the Big Baddies and saving the world. When you think like that you never have to develop critical thought, and so being confronted on that basis, can only have the effect of chasing them away, back into the waiting arms of nut jobs like Alex Jones and his ilk.

I do not mean to lecture, you guys do a fine job for the most part, but your frustrations are getting the better of you. Take these kids in, when they come looking for answers, or even to spread the 'twoof. They are suffering from the momentum of deception. They need confronting, and acceptance.

Is it the job of the Student to relate to the Teacher now? If these were the members of FLDS cult just coming in, would you bash them for their words so quickly? I expect more understanding, and guidance. With that, please don't make me come out of my shell for a while, I'll thank you.
 
the trouble is that thus far everyone that has come here "looking for answers" is quickly revealed to have already decided on the answers they want to hear, and rejects any others

essentially they come saying "i just heard about this group, they seem nice, but are they a cult" and then its later revealed they are 4th order members of said cult looking for new recruits
 
The trouble is that after 6 years of having their questions answered, they still refuse to accept the answers. Thus the angles have changed from answering questions to try and get them to question their own beliefs and view what evidence they have for them, unfortunately that doesn't seem to work either. The issue is that they aren't coming here to find a way to escape their mind set, they are perfectly happy believing what they do, which basically means for the most part they are just here to troll.
 
Is it our job to convert CT cultists, or to expose CT rubbish and lies for what they are?
 
I give new members the benefit of the doubt.

At the moment, however, the CTists present are not actually interested in answers, but in the confirmation of pre-concieved notions. They reject categorically the possiblity of being wrong. The ones who get derision have earned it by refusing repeatedly to listen to the answer to their questions, and thereby insulting those who answered said questions.

If someone comes by legitmately and honestly seeking answers, they shall find them for the asking.
Although they might find themselves re-directed to a thread or website which contains a discussion of the subject matter. Hopefully they won't feel they are being brushed off. It's just that nobody wants to answer the same claim over and over again. Especially ones that can be easily researched.
 
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jandarian said:
So many of you veteran posters, who I know have been through this stuff too much to want to help the new generations of the gullible, are really in need of being checked here.

These people that come on here are looking for answers.

Take these kids in, when they come looking for answers, or even to spread the 'twoof. They are suffering from the momentum of deception. They need confronting, and acceptance.

Is it the job of the Student to relate to the Teacher now?
Click to expand...

I realize you're new here yourself, but can you give some examples of CT posters here who satisfy the characteristics you describe (highlighted above)? It seems important, as always, to validate your assertion before attempting to understand and explain it.
 
The truthers that post on this forum are by and large not kids. Most of them are middle-aged. We take them to task because kids do look at this forum and they look at loose change forums and above top secret, etc. Showing the leaders and the old-men of the woo to be frauds, liars and above all, incompetent, is the most important step in preventing real kids from falling for this garbage.
 
I concede the point that some come here simply to lure the gullible. But, by and large, out of the thousands of posts I have read, many are genuinely seeking either to share this 'great' truth, or to find some kind of validation. Again, how can we ask them to think critically, when it's so obvious that that faculty has been nearly taken from them?

No, Southwind17, I see no need to validate something that seems so self-evident to me. If you really need more, just read any of the top 20 threads in this forum, and if that doesn't convince you of the validity of my OP, then perhaps you are either being purposefully obtuse, or in need of more reading, and less posting. And though, length of stay means less than experience or interest, I am not new here, I have been here longer than you.

As I said before, there is no lecture here, just a moment of pause, to both commend the veterans, and remind them of why they bother in the first place.
 
Yes, of course, Pardalis, but is that not a bit like handing a cult member a pamphlet entitled "Why Cults are Frauds", and then walking away, hoping that that will be enough?

I love aggle-rithm's quote in your sig. Spot on.
 
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jandarian said:
Yes, of course, Pardalis, but is that not a bit like handing a cult member a pamphlet entitled "Why Cults are Frauds", and then walking away, hoping that that will be enough?
Click to expand...
no, its more like handing him a pamphlet that says "why the specific cult you are in is a fraud and what you can do about it" then watching them wad it up and throw it back at you without reading it
 
Some of us also provide answers even to the dyed-in-wool conspiracy believers, so long as the question is reasonable and/or educational. I offer this recent thread of mine as an example.

Thus far, the effect on the conspiracy believers themselves has been slight, but many others have benefited, including those who truly are on the fence. This late in the game, however, such folks appear to be quite unusual.
 
The OP is not even logical...

"Take these kids in, when they come looking for answers, or even to spread the 'twoof. They are suffering from the momentum of deception. They need confronting, and acceptance."

The above sentences are meaningless dribble... they need confronting and acceptance? Right...

Anyone got a psychobabble translator handy?
 
I appreciate where you are coming from Gumboot, but unless you've ever been charged with helping teens recover from the trauma of cultism, you likely cannot relate.

The folks who have been bamboozled by the woo crafters are in serious need of both those things. Confrontation, and yes, acceptance. Have you ever had your mind done in by these people? Do you know what its like to look at the whole world, and not be able to trust a single individual, while at the same time, carrying the wait of whatever your cult belief may be?

Again, I appreciate your point of view, there are times in life when the more hard edged approach is indeed needed; such as when the recruiters come here to do what they do. But when those who have been mentally damaged by these things land in here, do you imagine your approach helps, or hinders their ability to recover?

Perhaps for some of you, merely telling people what to think is enough, maybe there are some who know, that as caring humans, we could be helping them to remember how to think.

Oh, and Southwind17, if you need some validation on my OP, I believe Gumboot has just provided it.
 
R.Mackey, I apologize for forgetting to give attention to your response.

Yes, indeed, you seem to be aware that there is a need in these 'truthers' to be accepted. When we accept them as people, and not just Tools, it can make the dialog mean more than just a debate.

As you build trust, you break down walls. Maybe in time a few will pass beyond the walls that have so enslaved their thinking, and return to a healthy frame of mind.

And selfishly maybe, would you not feel good, knowing you had helped a person, instead of just giving them the same scorn and belittlement passed around on these boards all too often?

(yes, Gumboot, I feel you twitching from over here, more psychobabble. Ha!)
 
It's an interesting point. You all know my views on our tendency to leap down the throat of CTers the moment they appear in contrast to (say) the more measured tones we get at Bautforum.

It's a difficult balance, though. What do we do when confronted with the likes of Magz or Heiwa, who are just here for a barney? Nothing will change their minds, ever. How does one gently put an arm around LastChild and explain he's wrong, when he refuses to listed to opposing arguments?

I think, FWIW, that we need to give new posters the benefit of doubt and explain in a much more friendly manner that we reserve for the aforementioned gentlemen. We can, and sometimes do, take such steps. Perhaps we should just widen our arms a bit more and make sure fewer slip betwixt.
 
jandarian said:
R.Mackey, I apologize for forgetting to give attention to your response.

Yes, indeed, you seem to be aware that there is a need in these 'truthers' to be accepted. When we accept them as people, and not just Tools, it can make the dialog mean more than just a debate.

As you build trust, you break down walls. Maybe in time a few will pass beyond the walls that have so enslaved their thinking, and return to a healthy frame of mind.

And selfishly maybe, would you not feel good, knowing you had helped a person, instead of just giving them the same scorn and belittlement passed around on these boards all too often?

(yes, Gumboot, I feel you twitching from over here, more psychobabble. Ha!)
Click to expand...

And may the bluebird of happiness fly free and all god's children will see.

Trust doesn't break down walls, sledgehammers do.
 
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