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Randomness in Evolution: Valid and Invalid Usage

Linear systems (e.g. smoke alarms) are non random, as quantum fluctuations are insignificant: (I think we agree on this too)

The reason that the smoke detector works is that the decay of many atoms of americium-241 at random creates a steady current with a predictable value. The moment-to-moment variations in the current (which do occur because the americium-241 does not necessarily produce the same amount of alpha-particles in every time interval) do not significantly effect to mean current and there is therefore a distinguishable difference "no smoke" and "smoke" states of the smoke detector. Replacing the americium-241 with an isotope with a much lower specific activity (e.g., uranium-238) makes it impossible to distinguish between the two state because the moment-to-moment variation in the current now swamps out the mean current.
 
Belz, I am arguing that:

Systems at the quantum scale are random, (I think we agree on this)

Linear systems (e.g. smoke alarms) are non random, as quantum fluctuations are insignificant: (I think we agree on this too)

Fair enough.

Nonlinear systems can be truly random because if they are significantly affected by ranom quantum events.

Examples of known non-linear systems, please.

Doesn't the statement that "evolution is non-random" imply that its course is inevitable, even if not predictable? In other words as soon as life emergerd it was inevitable that about 3.8 billion years later the ecosystem would look as it does now with only insignificant differences? Doesn't that also mean that in 100 or 1000 years from now the ecosystem is already determined with only insignificant differences?

Yes. But then it depends what you mean by random. By the definition you gave above, what you describe here is entirely deterministic and the answer to your question is yes. If you want it to be partially random you're going to have to change your definition.
 
Evolution could not be called "random", due to quantum fluctuations, any more than any other science, because all of those other sciences are also effected by quantum fluctuations. And, it would not even have terribly significant effects at that.

I think the only science where quantum fluctuations play a significant role is in... quantum mechanics. Any higher level and the effects (though still there) become more and more averaged out.


ETA: I just realized I already made most of this point in the OP. It's been such a long time, I nearly forgot.
 
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Which means that a smoke detector is non-random and natural selection isn't.

Mijo: are there ways the genome can vary and be acted upon by natural selection, other than mutation?
 
Which means that a smoke detector is non-random and natural selection isn't.

Mijo: are there ways the genome can vary and be acted upon by natural selection, other than mutation?

Genomes are not acted upon by natural selection; phenotypes are. Changes in the genetic sequences (and their expression, which lead to phenotype) are governed by quantum mechanics and are therefore random. However, not all events are equally likely to occurs, so over long periods of time the organism develops in an orderly fashion.
 
Belz:

Nonlinear systems WP include chaotic systems, which includes turbulent flow amongst others which affect the weather, itself a classic example of a chaotic system.

Many (ETA: maybe most) systems with lots of positive feedback loops are likely to be nonlinear; they would at least be bistable or multistable, and probably oscillatory. Negative feedbacks loops could increase temoporary islands of stability. All these are present in biological and ecological systems, for example the reduced adult cod population has probably resulted in increased predation of cod fry by the prey of adult cod, keeping the Grand Banks cod population low, despite fishing controls. This is an examople of a positive feedback loop.


Here is a transcription of a 1989 New Scientist article about chaotic systems in biology, including population dynamics by Robert May, former president of the Royal Society ( I am slightly dubious about the site host of the transcript, but the article seems fine):

The first few paragraphs talk about chaotic population dynamics.

Until recently, conventional analyses of population genetics showed that such selective effects could maintain variability within a species, but these static analyses tended to assume that the proportions of the different genotypes remained constant overtime. William Hamilton at Oxford, Simon Levin and David Pimentel at Cornell, Roy Anderson at Imperial College, London, and I have more recently studied the dynamic properties of the interactions among hosts and pathogens. The studies show that the proportions of any one genotype are likely to fluctuate chaotically from generation to generation. Such chaotically fluctuating polymorphisms are likely to be the rule rather than the exception.

One thing is certain. Biological systems, from communities and populations to physiological processes, are governed by nonlinear mechanisms. This means that we must expect to see chaos as often as we see cycles or steadiness. The message that I urged more than 10 years ago is even more true today: "not only in [biological] research, but also in the everyday world of politics and economics, we would all be better off if more people realised that simple nonlinear systems do not necessarily possess simple dynamical properties."

In the example from your post:

jimbob said:
Doesn't the statement that "evolution is non-random" imply that its course is inevitable, even if not predictable? In other words as soon as life emergerd it was inevitable that about 3.8 billion years later the ecosystem would look as it does now with only insignificant differences? Doesn't that also mean that in 100 or 1000 years from now the ecosystem is already determined with only insignificant differences?
Yes. But then it depends what you mean by random. By the definition you gave above, what you describe here is entirely deterministic and the answer to your question is yes. If you want it to be partially random you're going to have to change your definition.

I would disagree. Near-identical nonlinear systems tend to diverge over time.

Slight differences get magnified, all the way up from the alpha particle to a weather system.

3.8 billion years ago, as life first emerged, there was no inevitibility about the shape of the ecosystem now. Even just after the KT event, the shape of the current ecosystem would not have been determined. A few hundred thousand years ago, most of the ecosystem might, except for those species later rendered extinct due to chance technological developments of mankind, some of which were more probable than others. (Agriculture seems to have been developed independently in the Fertile Crescent, South America, and China for example)

Wowbagger:
The maths says that these systems are significantly affected by truly random events*, i.e. it isn't just because of a lack of measurement accuracy that prevents me from knowing what quarter the wind will blow from over my house in 100 days time but that it will be significantly* influenced in effect by random events that haven't happened yet. Similarly for other weather conditions. There are also predictible factors that affect the weather, and it probably will be warmer.

Linear systems are not significantly affected, but chaotic systems are.

This doesn't mean that analyses are impossible, just that there has to be a probabilistic slant.

An anlogy: When running simulations of planetary formation, sometimes the orbital mechanics are chaotic. To see what would tend to happen, one can run many simulations with very similar starting conditions and see how many times certain outcomes occur. "With a Jupiter sized body in the position of Jupiter's orbit, an Earth-like planet formed in the correct orbit in x% of the simulations" A bit of googling could probably dig out real examples.

You can run the experiment many times and see how often particular outcomes occur; this can sometimes be a "virtual" experiment, if you know the interactions.

Here is a recent BBC news story which includes a probabilistic treatment of evolutionary outocmes by Professor Andrew Watson

"We now believe that we evolved late in the Earth's habitable period, and this suggests that our evolution is rather unlikely. In fact, the timing of events is consistent with it being very rare indeed," he says.

"This has implications for our understanding of the likelihood of complex life and intelligence arising on any given planet."

Previous models are founded on the rationale that intelligent life on Earth emerged from a sequence of unlikely "critical steps".

Prof Watson identifies four - the emergence of single-celled bacteria; complex cells; specialised cells allowing complex life forms; intelligent life with an established language.

He estimates that the probability of each of these "critical steps" occurring in relation to the lifespan of Earth is no more than 10%.

Thus, the chances of intelligent life on any given Earth-like planet is tiny - less than 0.01% over four billion years.

Of course you could argue that this could be simply the lack of knowledge, but given the nonlinear systems involved, I would argue that it is essentially chance.

(The factor that he doesn't mention is the unknown potential number of habitible planets, "less than 0.01%" over the galaxy for Earth-like planets could still be a lot).


*whether or not an alpha particle ionises a few molecule of air does eventually lead to totally different weather patterns (at least according to the maths).

**i.e whether there is any wind at all, what speed it is, which direction (any of 360°)...
 
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My definition of random is that identical starting conditions within the whole system can lead to (significantly) different outcomes.
 
"Significantly" different outcomes?

Your definition of random is... random. I wish you guys would just get on board with the notion that algorithmic complexity provides a much better understanding of the nature of randomness then the convoluted twists your are making in reason.
 
Cyborg, was the rise of grasses inevitible at the time of the precambriann explosion?

Would the presence or absense of grasses make a significant difference to evolution of pretty much every land organism?

Of course it wasn't predictable, but nonrandom systems can still be unpredictable.
 
Cyborg, was the rise of grasses inevitible at the time of the precambriann explosion?

If it was because the universe is fundamentally deterministic what differences would that make to anything? You are still left with the same tools to reason with. The evolutionary explanation stands regardless.

You refuse to get this.
 
So a chaotic orbit isn't significantly affected by quantum events?
 
I do not ****ing care if it is or it is not. It changes nothing. You refuse to get this.
 
I agree that the evolutionary explaination stands regardless, but there are many different outcomes that are possible, and haven't been predetermined as they rely on future random events.
 
Wowbagger:
The maths says that these systems are significantly affected by truly random events*, i.e. it isn't just because of a lack of measurement accuracy that prevents me from knowing what quarter the wind will blow from over my house in 100 days time but that it will be significantly* influenced in effect by random events that haven't happened yet. Similarly for other weather conditions. There are also predictible factors that affect the weather, and it probably will be warmer.

Linear systems are not significantly affected, but chaotic systems are.

This doesn't mean that analyses are impossible, just that there has to be a probabilistic slant.
That doesn't dimish the fact that chaotic changes are still averaged out, nor the fact that the Theory of Evolution helps us predict various aspects of the system, with accuracy increasing as our information about it does.
 
Genomes are not acted upon by natural selection; phenotypes are. Changes in the genetic sequences (and their expression, which lead to phenotype) are governed by quantum mechanics and are therefore random. However, not all events are equally likely to occurs, so over long periods of time the organism develops in an orderly fashion.


But are there not 'changes' or variation in the genome, such as traits being reccessive and dominant that are not related to the mutations? Are artic foxes really white because of mutations or because of selection of alelles?

So if the conduction of electricity is goverened by QM, it is random?
 
That doesn't dimish the fact that chaotic changes are still averaged out, nor the fact that the Theory of Evolution helps us predict various aspects of the system, with accuracy increasing as our information about it does.

I'm not quite sure why people seem to continually overlook the fact that the "averaging out over time" does not make the system non-random, because every the simplest idealized models of probability (i.e., the ones where the random variable are independently and identically distributed and no causality is assumed) display convergence to a mean value with ever-decreasing variance (otherwise known and the central limit theorem and the law of large numbers).
 
This is where I disagree with mijo:

nonlinear systems tend to diverge over time i.e. these differences get magnified not averaged out.

At the emergence of life 3.8billion years ago, there was no inevitibility about the emergence of grasses (or equivalent small wind-polinated land plants that grow quickly and thus can suppotrt large herbivore biomas). The emergence of grasses was affected by many small and truly random events that hadn't been predetermined at that time.

Without something occupying this niche, ecosystems would look completelty different. Many evolutionary pressures would be completely different, so the whole course of evolution for most land organisms would be signifficantly different.

I would argue that this is a valid use of "random".

What was inevitible was that successfully reproduceing organisms would demonstrate good adaptation to whatever environment they were in. Evolution can explain why and how organisms are the way they are, but the nonlinear nature of biological systems means that predictions are best described in terems of probabilities. Sometimes these probabilities are very high, e.g. given the presence of grassland, herbivores will evolve to eat this grass, and they will be preyed upon.



One can still make assessments on a probabilstic basis.

This news story discusses the chances of intelligent life evolving on a particular earth-like planet, and uses similar reasoning to that which I have done in a similar thread, including the low probability of intellignet life arisisng, using similar basic information, which, for my simple reasoning was that large complex organisms have exidsted for many hundreds of millions of years, and even large mammals have existed for tens of millions of years, in environments where any organism occupying our niche could have thrived. That it took so long implies that it is probably an unlikely occurance.

There is another opoint, I am saying that because nonlinear systems tend to diverge, evolution is probably only random for the majority of ecosystems over geological timeframes. Over shorter timeframes, with stable enough environments, evolution is probably nonrandom.

The random nature is most significant when the ecosystems are plastic, so most organisms are not very well adapted, and new potential niches are opened up, some of which will be closed, and which do will be dependent on how evolution runs in this particular instance.

This New York Times article (again) could show another way where randomness affects evolution.

Fast-Reproducing Microbes Provide a Window on Natural Selection

<snip>

Dr. Bennett was particularly curious about how organisms adapt to different temperatures. He wondered if adapting to low temperatures meant organisms would fare worse at higher ones, a long-standing question. Working with Dr. Lenski, Dr. Bennett allowed 24 lines of E. coli to adapt to a relatively chilly 68 degrees for 2,000 generations. They then measured how quickly these cold-adapted microbes reproduced at a simmering 104 degrees.

Two-thirds of the lines did worse at high temperatures than their ancestors, experiencing the expected trade-off. “If you’re a betting person, that’s the way you’d better bet,” Dr. Bennett said. But the pattern was not universal. The bacteria that reproduced fastest in the cold did not do the worst job of breeding in the heat. A third of the cold-adapted lines did as well or better in the heat than the ancestor. Dr. Bennett and Dr. Lenski published their latest findings last month in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

To me, this implies that if there were several competing strains of bacteria, and they were placed in a cool environment and adated to this, the surviving strains would all become cold-adapted. However if the environment then changed and became hotter, those which had a cold-adaptation that was also (by chance) a heat-adaptation (or maybe a simple head adaptation by genetic-drift) would outcompete the other cold-adapted strains, which possibly wouldn't get a chance to evolve heat adaptation before becoming extinct.

Which organisms have the head start in the new environment would be random in this case.

ETA: And there is no reason to suppose that lab situations are unique in this.
 
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I'm not quite sure why people seem to continually overlook the fact that the "averaging out over time" does not make the system non-random, because every the simplest idealized models of probability (i.e., the ones where the random variable are independently and identically distributed and no causality is assumed) display convergence to a mean value with ever-decreasing variance (otherwise known and the central limit theorem and the law of large numbers).
It depends on how you define "non-random".

While Evolution could be random in the sense of quantum uncertainty, it would be invalid to criticize it as random, because of that, because all of the other sciences are effected by quantum uncertainty, as well.

For the same reason, Evolution can not be called a "theory of randomness". It tries to predict emergent patterns in life forms, as precisely as possible; not throw up its hands to to the mercy of pure chance.
 

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