What is the difference between art and advertising?

[CFLarsen]

Yes, you really want to portray me as dishonest and a liar.

You may disagree with what I say. But don't claim I haven't explained what I mean.

 

[athon]

Yes, you really want to portray me as dishonest and a liar.

You may disagree with what I say. But don't claim I haven't explained what I mean.

If the shoes fits...

What do you mean by 'sell'? Why can't you answer the question?

Athon

 

[Tricky]

It's a black square - you could also show me a black wall. How would that be art?

You'll have to explain why you think it is art, before I can tell you how it sells. If you can't - or won't - then I can't do it.

Odd. You don't have such a litmus test for the examples you cite.

You clearly haven't met many artists.

Actually I'm good friends with a number of artists here in Houston. Also, I've met Athon, who is an artist. Also, I've created art myself (re: the example I provided for you earlier). I'd guess that the percentage of artists who agreed that all art was selling something, would be roughly the same as the percentage of people who agree with you on this thread. I think that number is hovering close to zero.

 

[CFLarsen]

Odd. You don't have such a litmus test for the examples you cite.

Of course not: That's what I call art. Why do you assume that what you call art, I also call art?

Actually I'm good friends with a number of artists here in Houston. Also, I've met Athon, who is an artist. Also, I've created art myself (re: the example I provided for you earlier). I'd guess that the percentage of artists who agreed that all art was selling something, would be roughly the same as the percentage of people who agree with you on this thread. I think that number is hovering close to zero.

Oh, you polled them, did you? Sure.

Lame, lame, lame...

 

[Tricky]

Of course not: That's what I call art. Why do you assume that what you call art, I also call art?

Your statement wasn't "Anything that I call art is advertising", the statement was "All art is advertising". That means anything that anybody calls "art". (In the OP, I did specifically restrict the definition to certain kinds of art, but most of the examples that have been provided to you have satisfied those restrictions.)

Now obviously it would be foolish to make such a blanket statement about "all" art. Alas, the world is not devoid of fools.

Oh, you polled them, did you? Sure.

No, but I'm a pretty good judge of people. Note how I made a correct prediction about you early in this thread.

Also, one of the artists on that list has already made his position clear.

I note that when you say, "Try telling that to <some artist name>" you haven't actually told them. If you can speak for artists you've never met, I think I can be allowed to do so for artists I have met.

 

[CFLarsen]

Your statement wasn't "Anything that I call art is advertising", the statement was "All art is advertising". That means anything that anybody calls "art". (In the OP, I did specifically restrict the definition to certain kinds of art, but most of the examples that have been provided to you have satisfied those restrictions.)

Now obviously it would be foolish to make such a blanket statement about "all" art. Alas, the world is not devoid of fools.

....OK. So, explain why you think it is art.

You do think it is art, don't you?

No

Then you don't know.

 

[volatile]

....OK. So, explain why you think it is art.

You do think it is art, don't you?



Then you don't know.

In order to avoid answering a simple question, you want to start a side-track as to whether Mark Rothko is an artist, and what he produces is art?

Are you serious?

I think you'll find that it's pretty uncontraversial that Mark Rothko is an artist - his paintings are bought and sold (by your definition, do they "sell" themselves?), his work is exhibited in galleries and held in private collections all opver the world. His work features in art anthologies, is discussed in art journals, and taught on art courses.

Yes, he's an artist, and yes his output is art.

What's that paining selling?

What's Zereissprobe selling? What's Life Sharing selling? What's Biennale.py selling? What's Breakdown selling? You still haven't answered...

 

[Tricky]

....OK. So, explain why you think it is art.

You do think it is art, don't you?

Actually, I explained that in post #325, but since you decided to ignore it, I'll rephrase it for you. (You see, some of us here actually do answer direct questions.) If anybody thinks a person's creation is art, then as far as I'm concerned, it is art.

Then you don't know.

Aren't you clever the way you edit the post to eliminate the pertinent parts! It's no wonder everyone here respects you the way that they do. If you want to see how that is, I'd be glad to poll them for you, since you think polling is so important.

 

[Morrigan]

Already explained: He gets better.

"Getting better" is not "selling something". He also has no intention of ever exchanging his paintings for money. He just paints as a hobby, for fun.

If you still think that this is the same thing as "selling", then you are using the word "sell" in a way that no one else is. Or, more likely, you are just trolling.

 

[CFLarsen]

Yes, he's an artist, and yes his output is art.

OK. Why do you think it is art? Because his paintings are bought and sold?

Gee.

Actually, I explained that in post #325, but since you decided to ignore it, I'll rephrase it for you. (You see, some of us here actually do answer direct questions.) If anybody thinks a person's creation is art, then as far as I'm concerned, it is art.

Okie doke.

Why is it art? Is a black square painted on a wall art?

Aren't you clever the way you edit the post to eliminate the pertinent parts! It's no wonder everyone here respects you the way that they do. If you want to see how that is, I'd be glad to poll them for you, since you think polling is so important.

I'm not eliminating the pertinent parts, quite contrary. The only pertinent part was "no".

 

[volatile]

OK. Why do you think it is art? Because his paintings are bought and sold?

That's one reason.

Another is "I think you'll find that it's pretty uncontraversial that Mark Rothko is an artist - his paintings are bought and sold (by your definition, do they "sell" themselves?), his work is exhibited in galleries and held in private collections all opver the world. His work features in art anthologies, is discussed in art journals, and taught on art courses". This is what you might call the consensus defintion of art.

This piece also fulfills what is called the formal defintion of art - this piece is formally identical to that which has traditionally been understood as art; it is paint on canvas. It also fulfills what is known as the romantic defintion of art, in that it is the creative product of an individual, designed to express a specific or nebulous set of ideas and concepts. Further, it fulfills what might be called something like the personal defintion - Rothko self-identifies as an artist, and presents these pieces as art-works.

So yes, Rothklo is an artist, and the piece Tricky posted is an artwork, quite uncontraversially. That's off-topic, though.

So: What is it selling? Itself? If you want to make the case that it is, I'd probably even agree with you. But you'd need to make the case.

Oh, and define "sell" while you're at it.

 

[CFLarsen]

That's one reason.

And that's all you need.

 

[Tricky]

Why is it art?

(Sigh) As I just told you, it is art because at least one person thinks it is art.

Is a black square painted on a wall art?

If someone thinks it is, yes.

How many times will I have to explain this concept to you?

I'm not eliminating the pertinent parts, quite contrary. The only pertinent part was "no".

I do not doubt that the only pertinent parts to you are the ones you can dissect out to make it look as if they support your points. If you feel clever by doing this, then go right ahead. I don't think you're impressing anyone with your reasoning skills though. Rather you are enhancing your reputation for being honesty-challenged.

 

[Don At Work]

Here is what the dictionary says about the word SELL:
–verb (used with object)
1. to transfer (goods) to or render (services) for another in exchange for money; dispose of to a purchaser for a price: He sold the car to me for $1000.
2. to deal in; keep or offer for sale: He sells insurance. This store sells my favorite brand.
3. to make a sale or offer for sale to: He'll sell me the car for $1000.
4. to persuade or induce (someone) to buy something: The salesman sold me on a more expensive model than I wanted.
5. to persuade or induce someone to buy (something): The clerk really sold the shoes to me by flattery.
6. to make sales of: The hot record sold a million copies this month.
7. to cause to be accepted, esp. generally or widely: to sell an idea to the public.
8. to cause or persuade to accept; convince: to sell the voters on a candidate.
9. to accept a price for or make a profit of (something not a proper object for such action): to sell one's soul for political power.
10. to force or exact a price for: The defenders of the fort sold their lives dearly.
11. Informal. to cheat, betray, or hoax.
–verb (used without object)
12. to engage in selling something.
13. to be on sale.
14. to offer something for sale: I like this house—will they sell?
15. to be employed to persuade or induce others to buy, as a salesperson or a clerk in a store: One sister is a cashier and the other sells.
16. to have a specific price; be offered for sale at the price indicated (fol. by at or for): Eggs used to sell at sixty cents a dozen. This shirt sells for thirty dollars.
17. to be in demand by buyers: On a rainy day, umbrellas really sell.
18. to win acceptance, approval, or adoption: Here's an idea that'll sell.
19. sell (someone) a bill of goods. bill of goods (def. 3).
–noun
20. an act or method of selling.
21. Stock Exchange. a security to be sold.
22. Informal. a cheat; hoax.
—Verb phrases
23. sell off, to sell, esp. at reduced prices, in order to get rid of: The city is selling off a large number of small lots at public auction.
24. sell out,
a. to dispose of entirely by selling.
b. to betray (an associate, one's country, a cause, etc.); turn traitor: He committed suicide rather than sell out to the enemy.
25. sell up, British. to sell out: She was forced to sell up her entire stock of crystal.
—Idiom
26. sell short. short (def. 50).

So, are any of these definitions for "sell" meaningful to the way CFLarson is using the word? I could not tell. He maintains he has defined the word numerous times, yet I cannot find these definitions, even when I go back and check the posts he cites. He may have USED the word, but the usage was not clear to me. Number 7 on this list comes the closest, but I am not sure if it is what he means.

Is there any particular reason as to WHY you will not give a simple dictionary definition of "sell" that you are using CFLarson?

 

[CFLarsen]

(Sigh) As I just told you, it is art because at least one person thinks it is art.

No, that answers the question "Is it art?". "Yes", you say. So I ask "Why?"

Why is that painting art? I'm asking you.

If someone thinks it is, yes.

Do you think a black square on a wall is art?

 

[Prometheus]

....

Do you think a black square on a wall is art?

Do you think it isn't? What does "sell" mean to you?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

No, that answers the question "Is it art?". "Yes", you say. So I ask "Why?"

Why is that painting art? I'm asking you.



Do you think a black square on a wall is art?

What does "sell" mean to you?

Finish the following sentence:

"When I (Claus Larsen) say that 'all art is selling something', I am using the word 'sell' to mean...."

 

[Piscivore]

So, are any of these definitions for "sell" meaningful to the way CFLarson is using the word? I could not tell. He maintains he has defined the word numerous times, yet I cannot find these definitions, even when I go back and check the posts he cites. He may have USED the word, but the usage was not clear to me. Number 7 on this list comes the closest, but I am not sure if it is what he means.

Is there any particular reason as to WHY you will not give a simple dictionary definition of "sell" that you are using CFLarson?

One suspects that sense #22 is coming into play here somewhere...

 

[volatile]

And that's all you need.

So: What is it selling? Itself? If you want to make the case that it is, I'd probably even agree with you. But you'd need to make the case.

What are Zereissprobe, Biennale.py, Life Sharing and Breakdown selling?

 

[Tricky]

No, that answers the question "Is it art?". "Yes", you say. So I ask "Why?"

And I told you. "Because" somebody thinks it's art. I was afraid I would have to explain this to you again. Please try to keep up.

Do you think a black square on a wall is art?

I'd have to see it. I certainly wouldn't rule it out. But if somebody else said they thought it was art, then I would agree. There is so much that art can be that your sweeping statement about "all art" is ludicrous. I can only think of two things that I would say about "all art", and they are:

1. That a conscious being created it.
2. Somebody thinks it is art.

I cannot think of any other rules. Maybe others can.

Now that I have directly answered your question, would you please give us your "rules" for what is and isn't art? Yeah, it's off topic, but I would be interested to see if you could do this without being evasive.

Of course, it would be nice if you complete the sentence The Central Scrutinizer started for you, but I'm predicting you won't. Prove me wrong.