Unfulfilled Bible Prophecies

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

If you dust off your copy of CLASSICAL PHILOLOGY April 1990, there's an article chasing down the whenabouts of Aristotle when he wrote the Meteorolgica 1-3, which is apparently something of interest to Aristotleans. It wasn't that difficult as there was a verifiable astronomical conjunction mentioned, between Jupiter and a star in Gemini.
Precessung Jupiter's orbit into the probable year span and then looking for suitable stars in Gemini wasn't too difficult.
But I think your task is harder, depending on purely human notations of events.
We (Sheldon Cohen, Jean Meeus and myself) came up with December 5, 337 BC as the date of the conjunction, when Aristotle was in Athens writing that treatise.

That's some pretty hot calculating, there.

Actually, all I have to do is find the dates of the new moons around Jerusalem at the spring equinox and crosscheck it with the table of dates. I can't even use an Easter perpetual calendar because of calendar-related weirdness over the intervening years.

 

[HghrSymmetry]

Don't be stupid.

Do we have a deal?

DR

DR, I can appreciate the request, yet in this instance the chances of it being granted are infinitesimally small.

When there is so much disconnect from reality, the chasm simply becomes insurmountable.

I know, it's like passing an accident victim, you want to help, but they just "give you the finger" and continue to bleed out. That's their choice after all.

One can still have commiseration and propose a standing offer to help, which any good samaritan would do.

 

[edge]

Originally Posted by edge
Don't play stupid.

I'm not sure if this was meant for the post previous to it, or is aimed at me.

It was to the previous post.
I was writing about the post that was mocked twice, at 1:30 in the morning after work and mining earlier in the day, when I wrote it, I was pretty tired.

Radrook is probably on vacation.

Matthew 12 :40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Was this sign to mean Jesus would die and rise after three days and three nights sealed in a tomb? Lazarus had just risen from death in a tomb after FOUR days and the Pharisees who wanted a sign were very aware of it. Did Jesus mean to repeat this miracle, for fewer days, and offer it as a sign? No, the sign was much more than rising from the dead after three days and nights in a tomb. The sign was to immerse Himself in our sins, separated from God as Jonah prophesied, where God would not hear, pay for our sins with suffering, death and on the third day rise again.

Heart of the Earth is the living part of the Earth.
The Ground the air the water, we are from the ground, sinful.
It took him three days and three nights to complete the resurrection then he went to heaven, blood was shed on Thursday night when he entered into sin or sin entered him.

Another take,

The Bible shows us that the "whale's belly" or the "heart of the earth" began for Jesus on the night He was betrayed, immediately after He performed His last healing miracle, when He was "delivered into the hands of men" and became sin:
"For He has made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"The Heart of the Earth"
Many have assumed this indicates Jesus in the tomb. Yet, there are countless Scriptures that indicate "earth" is the heart of man, which the Bible says is exceedingly wicked. Thus when Jesus became sin, He was in the "heart of the earth."

Jesus Himself used "earth" many times when He referred to man's heart. The "four soils" parable (originally "earth" in Scripture, Greek and KJV) confirms that earth is used to describe the heart of man.

The importance of this is exemplified, for when the disciples asked Jesus to explain the parable, He said,
"Know you not this parable? How then will you know all parables?" (Mk 4:13)
Jesus then explains that the seed that was sown in the earth is:"...the word that was sown in their hearts." (Mark 4:15)

The "faith of a mustard seed" parable is also planted in the earth and the earth signifies man's heart; and the talents were also "hidden in the earth" by the lazy servant.

Suddenly so many other verses that include the earth make sense to me. The treasure hidden in a field, etc. are all about man's heart.

Additionally, 1 Cor 15:47 says,
"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven." (speaking of Adam and Jesus)
Jesus entered the "heart of the earth" or the "heart of man" as the parables often point out, when He fulfilled prophesy and BECAME SIN.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thought of his heart was only evil continually..." (Genesis 6:5-12)
"But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are like filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)

There are dozens of Scriptures that depict mankind as the "earth" expressing emotions and reactions as men's hearts.

Even the original Greek word in the Scripture for "heart" is kardia:
kardia; prol. from a primary (Lat. cor, "heart); the heart, i.e. (fig) the thoughts or feelings (mind). [Strongs Exhaustive Conc.]

An Interesting Twist: The Man in Linen

Mark 14:50 says that when the soldiers took Jesus,
"They [His followers] all forsook Him and fled. And there followed Him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him: and he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked."
Ever wonder about that verse?...

Revelation 19:8 says
"linen is the righteousness of saints."

Again, 2 Cor 5:21 says
"for He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

The righteousness of the saints, the linen, was left by this spiritual being as men [soldiers] took hold of him, and he fled naked as Jesus was arrested. When Adam sinned and ate the fruit, "he knew that he was naked and hid from God among the trees of the garden (Genesis 3:7-8)

When Adam sinned and when Jesus became sin, both times righteousness was removed, nakedness was revealed, somebody fled and hid. I don't know who this "spiritual being" was as it is controversial in Daniel 10:5 as well.

Adam sinned and thus the fall. Jesus was the second Adam who became sin and bought us back by His blood. When this event happened, Jesus was delivered into the hands of men and was beaten, bruised and scourged. He bled the precious blood to redeem us. It was the lamb's blood that was painted on the doorposts in Egypt at Passover,
"He was wounded for our transgressions".

Jesus delivered Himself into the hands of men, without blemish, while a spiritual being wearing linen followed. (I think this was Melchizedek but I'm not a scholar).

The linen was left by this spiritual being as men took hold of him. Jesus became sin and the "righteousness of the saints" (which we have only in Christ) was removed… the linen was left, the precious blood began to flow, payment had begun; and Jesus, separated from God because He became sin, was in the "heart of the earth," the belly of the whale.

It was the atheist's contention that according to the Bible, Jesus did not spend three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth" (or "tomb" as they see it).

Taken from here,

http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause Exclusives/The Sign of Jonah.htm

You want to see things in the way men see them, believe and see in the way God sees the things of the world and what is meant in the word.
I don’t come in here too often and when I do sometimes I’m tired, so excuse me for making mistakes.

Pharisees were skeptics too.

I find this to be interesting, deception.

65"Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how."
66So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.

What really happened here was witnessed. The real story is they fell on their faces scared to death.

The Guards' Report
11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

It also took three days and three nights for the complete resurrection as he left later that night on the third day, Wittnessing the Ascension to the Father.


Another version

45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Same thing after that he ascends.

. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you.

"After all of what occurred they get to their destination, which is where all of the above occurs, that had to take up most of the day since they did all the traveling back and forth to the tomb before leaving to Galilee, and then he ascends which has to be the evening of the third day".

Later on that night he is taken up to the Father He has been on earth three days and three nights. The completion of his resurrection is when he ascended, the completion of our resurrections in our ascension to Christ.

Matthew 12 :40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

There is a distinction of heart of the Earth, You seem to think it’s under ground and all the apostils think this way, "He will rise on the third day".
Heart of the Earth is the living part of the Earth US.


Taken from that link above, is this, you are assuming that Jesus can't see the future for himself and here another take, the fact that he is before his death., prophesying on himself.

1. "From that time forth began Jesus to show unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day." (Matthew 16:21)

2. "Jesus said unto them, the Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of man; and they shall kill Him, and the third day He shall be raised again." (Matthew 17:22)

3. "Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him to the Gentiles, to mock and to scourge, and to crucify Him, and the third day He shall rise again." (Matthew 20:18)

4. "Son of man must suffer many things and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." (Mark 8:31)

5. "For He taught His disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill Him, and after that He is killed, He shall rise the third day." (Mark 9:31) (note: the repetition emphasizes Jesus was definitely dead, in other words, "make no mistake He IS KILLED" and not isolating the sequence.)

6. "and they shall mock Him, and shall scourge Him, and shall spit upon Him, and shall kill Him, and the third day He shall rise again." (Mark 10:34)

7. "Saying, the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day." (Luke 9:22)

8. "Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished, for He shall be delivered unto the Gentiles and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on, and they shall scourge Him, and put Him to death, and the third day He shall rise again." (Luke 18:31)

9. "The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of men, crucified, and the third day rise again." (Luke 24:7)

10. (The disciples were explaining unknowingly to the risen Jesus ) "And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and have crucified Him. But we trusted that it had to be He which should have redeemed Israel, and besides all this, today is the third day since these things (plural) were done." (Luke 24:20) (This verse is unique in that Jesus then replied, "O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His glory?' " (Luke 24:25)

11. "And said unto them, thus it is written and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." (Luke 24:46)

12. "And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day." (note: I looked up the original Greek word for "slew" used in the New Testament. It means "Alas! woe" which are clearly suffering and included in the sequence. By our definition, "slew" means: "To kill by violent means." ~American Heritage ) (Acts 10:39)

Notice how each one gives the necessary sequence. ALL verses follow the pattern and include the "deliverance," "betrayal," or "suffering" of Jesus (Thursday night) within the sentence describing the three day timeframe. I also find it amazing that there are exactly 12.

There are three explanations in here and all are right I.M.O…….
What is it that you do not see here?

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Radrook is probably on vacation.

Doing what? Combing the desert for salvaged equipment to load into his sandcrawler and peddle to the locals?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

You want to see things in the way men see them, believe and see in the way God sees the things of the world and what is meant in the word.
I don’t come in here too often and when I do sometimes I’m tired so excuse me for making mistakes.

Pharisees were skeptics too.

Wrong. The Pharisees were the mainstream religious establishment who insisted on strict adherence to dogma and tradition, regardless of what purpose it served.

(snipped for space)
There are three explanations in here and all are right I.M.O…….
What is it that you do not see here?

Did it ever occur to you that, because the Jews did not practice embalming, the corpse of Jesus (yes corpse) would have decayed beyond recognition before long? The followers of his renegade Jewish cult who were left behind after his execution would not have convinced too many people by shoving a rotting carcass in people's faces and proclaiming it to be their messiah. They had the means and motive to fabricate an "ass-ension" story in order to salvage what little dignity they could from the disaster they'd just been through. If your mentor and spiritual leader was violently put to death, and it were up to you to write about it, what would you say?

 

[edge]

what would you say?

I would say you still purposefully reject.

You are insinuating that the disciples were could be lying for Jesus when in fact it's the Pharisees lying for Satan.

"You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep”.

The lie is there.

This after apparently after the soldiers told them what happened.

I wonder how a court of law would see this?

 

[This Guy]

It was to the previous post.
I was writing about the post that was mocked twice, at 1:30 in the morning after work and mining earlier in the day, when I wrote it, I was pretty tired.

No problem. As long as I can figure out what your saying, I'll not be making comments about how you say it. I don't intend to make this a grammer or spelling contest

Radrook is probably on vacation.

I hope he will join our discussion when he returns.

Heart of the Earth is the living part of the Earth.
The Ground the air the water, we are from the ground, sinful.
It took him three days and three nights to complete the resurrection then he went to heaven, blood was shed on Thursday night when he entered into sin or sin entered him.

Another take,

It was the atheist's contention that according to the Bible, Jesus did not spend three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth" (or "tomb" as they see it).

Taken from here,

http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause Exclusives/The Sign of Jonah.htm

You want to see things in the way men see them, believe and see in the way God sees the things of the world and what is meant in the word.
I don’t come in here too often and when I do sometimes I’m tired, so excuse me for making mistakes.

Pharisees were skeptics too.

I find this to be interesting, deception.


What really happened here was witnessed. The real story is they fell on their faces scared to death.

It also took three days and three nights for the complete resurrection as he left later that night on the third day, Wittnessing the Ascension to the Father.

Another version

Same thing after that he ascends.


"After all of what occurred they get to their destination, which is where all of the above occurs, that had to take up most of the day since they did all the traveling back and forth to the tomb before leaving to Galilee, and then he ascends which has to be the evening of the third day".

Later on that night he is taken up to the Father He has been on earth three days and three nights. The completion of his resurrection is when he ascended, the completion of our resurrections in our ascension to Christ.

There is a distinction of heart of the Earth, You seem to think it’s under ground and all the apostils think this way, "He will rise on the third day".
Heart of the Earth is the living part of the Earth US.

Taken from that link above, is this, you are assuming that Jesus can't see the future for himself and here another take, the fact that he is before his death., prophesying on himself.

There are three explanations in here and all are right I.M.O…….
What is it that you do not see here?

Truthfully? I don't see anything other than someone's arbitrary interpretation, which as far as I know is his lone interpretation. Being only his interpretation of course doesn't make it wrong. It being a convoluted attempt to get around an embarrassing part of the Bible makes it wrong

I think a simple reading of the scriptures plainly state that Jesus was claiming to be in the ground for three days and three nights.

I think the 5th example in your list shows plainly what was meant:

5. "For He taught His disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill Him, and after that He is killed, He shall rise the third day." (Mark 9:31) (note: the repetition emphasizes Jesus was definitely dead, in other words, "make no mistake He IS KILLED" and not isolating the sequence.)

After he is killed He shall rise the third day. How much simpler could it be worded? He will be killed, and after that, he will rise in three days. It may be archaic, but it's still pretty simple.

IMHO all the babbling you quoted is just a vain attempt to twist the words of the Bible to make them appear to say something they plainly do not say.

I also do not see why this person you quoted thinks the passages in Isaiah pertain to Jesus. I believe a complete reading of the surrounding text (in this case the preceding text) shows that the writer of Isaiah was referring to either Israel or Jacob. Not some future Messiah. But I had intended to bring the problem with Old Testament "Prophecies" about Jesus up at the end of the New Testament section of this thread, so I'll not say more about that now.

I don't mean to sound rude here, but I simply don't agree with this "heart" idea. I find no reason to override what was clearly written, and twist it around in such a convoluted way.

I was a member of the Church of Christ when I was a believer. We had a simple motto: "Speak where the Bible speaks, be silent where the Bible is silent". While I have dropped my beliefs in what the Bible says, I still think, when reading/interpreting the Bible, this is a good rule to follow.

 

[HghrSymmetry]

Hearsay ususally isn't allowed in court cases.

 

[edge]

Silentknight Yes what logical sense you make, NOT.
They publicly execute the head of the revolution; they keep Christianity going so they could perpetuate a lie and take the risk of being executed for doing so and to do this after Jesus prophesied the same would happen to them when they spread the knowledge of Christ and the redemption.


Especially after witnessing the brutal execution and everything else they did to Christ.

I think the logical thing to do if it was a lie would be to go back to the status-que religion and ask for redemption that they couldn’t give apparently!

But that’s not what happened.

But you would try having us believe that they would keep up with abuse thrown at them and persecution, execution, be-headings, eaten by lions and all other forms of abuse just to perpetuate a lie.
After seeing what the powers to be back then, would do, crucify by the hundreds?
Especially when there was no profit in doing so only more misery at that time.
So that logic doesn't wash at all, there was something greater at work.
This Guy says,

I think a simple reading of the scriptures plainly state that Jesus was claiming to be in the ground for three days and three nights.

No it says Earth.
You can’t pass this up the fact that he himself prophesied his death and the other two explanations have it covered three ways to Sunday.

You say,

I was a member of the Church of Christ when I was a believer. We had a simple motto: "Speak where the Bible speaks, be silent where the Bible is silent". While I have dropped my beliefs in what the Bible says, I still think, when reading/interpreting the Bible, this is a good rule to follow.

I think it is wrong to think that way because it isn’t Christians that bring this to light the questions and the deceptions, therefore there must be explanations and I have done that with the link that explains Thursday night, my version, and this below as prophesied.
I’m not sure of the Isaiah verse either.
Lets use 7

. . "From that time forth began Jesus to show unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day." (Matthew 16:21)

2. "Jesus said unto them, the Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of man; and they shall kill Him, and the third day He shall be raised again." (Matthew 17:22)

3. "Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him to the Gentiles, to mock and to scourge, and to crucify Him, and the third day He shall rise again." (Matthew 20:18)

4. "Son of man must suffer many things and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." (Mark 8:31)

5. "For He taught His disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill Him, and after that He is killed, He shall rise the third day." (Mark 9:31) (note: the repetition emphasizes Jesus was definitely dead, in other words, "make no mistake He IS KILLED" and not isolating the sequence.)

6. "and they shall mock Him, and shall scourge Him, and shall spit upon Him, and shall kill Him, and the third day He shall rise again." (Mark 10:34)

7. "Saying, the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day." (Luke 9:22)

All your saying is the third night is missing.
The author of that link shows you how it was the night that started the sacrifice in the beginning on Thrusday.
Friday, Saturday, Sunday, three days.

It’s obvious to me he was making a major distinction when he repeated, “and be raised the third day”.
Later that night on the third day he leaves for heaven using your three day mark.


I have shown you how the timeline fits at the end of the first day, which was Sunday.

Where exactly is the heart of the Earth? Not Ground.

The resurrection is not complete till Christ is re-joined with God, which was Sunday night.
For us, when we are re-joined with Christ, then the Father.

 

[This Guy]

Silentknight Yes what logical sense you make, NOT.
They publicly execute the head of the revolution; they keep Christianity going so they could perpetuate a lie and take the risk of being executed for doing so and to do this after Jesus prophesied the same would happen to them when they spread the knowledge of Christ and the redemption.


Especially after witnessing the brutal execution and everything else they did to Christ.

I think the logical thing to do if it was a lie would be to go back to the status-que religion and ask for redemption that they couldn’t give apparently!

But that’s not what happened.

But you would try having us believe that they would keep up with abuse thrown at them and persecution, execution, be-headings, eaten by lions and all other forms of abuse just to perpetuate a lie.
After seeing what the powers to be back then, would do, crucify by the hundreds?
Especially when there was no profit in doing so only more misery at that time.
So that logic doesn't wash at all, there was something greater at work.
This Guy says,

No it says Earth.
You can’t pass this up the fact that he himself prophesied his death and the other two explanations have it covered three ways to Sunday.

You say,

I think it is wrong to think that way because it isn’t Christians that bring this to light the questions and the deceptions, therefore there must be explanations and I have done that with the link that explains Thursday night, my version, and this below as prophesied.
I’m not sure of the Isaiah verse either.
Lets use 7


All your saying is the third night is missing.
The author of that link shows you how it was the night that started the sacrifice in the beginning on Thrusday.
Friday, Saturday, Sunday, three days.

It’s obvious to me he was making a major distinction when he repeated, “and be raised the third day”.
Later that night on the third day he leaves for heaven using your three day mark.


I have shown you how the timeline fits at the end of the first day, which was Sunday.

Where exactly is the heart of the Earth? Not Ground.

The resurrection is not complete till Christ is re-joined with God, which was Sunday night.
For us, when we are re-joined with Christ, then the Father.

So your argument is that Jesus meant that he would rise up to the Father on the third day, he wasn't speaking of the resurrection. And since he was taken to Heaven, to be with his Father on the evening of the third day (the first day of the week) that fulfilled the prophecy?

Am I correct?

 

[This Guy]

OK, I'm going with your opinion being the three days and three nights started Thursday Night when Jesus was arrested and all the nasty stuff started.

Then the end of the three days and three nights being Sunday, the first day of the week, when he was taken up to heaven.

That is what I understand you to be saying. I still disagree with your logic, but I guess we have to agree to disagree there. That's fine.

The real problem with your time line has to do with when Jesus was taken up. Was that Sunday? Let's see

John 20

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

So, Sunday evening, Jesus went to the disciples in John 20, verses 18 and 19.

John 21

1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.

2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.

3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.

4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

In John 21 verse 4 the next morning has come and Jesus is still on earth.

Sorry, but your opinion and the Bible disagree on the facts involved.

I still say Jesus meant he would be in the earth 3 days and three nights. I still think your idea, and the one you quoted, about the three days starting with the arrest is a bit off the wall. I think you and the quoted person are applying a convoluted interpretation to some very simple passages. But, that is your prerogative. Again, I guess we have to agree to disagree. Still Thursday night to sometime Monday does not equal three days and three nights either. And John doesn't tell us when Jesus went up, so there is no way to figure that out from him, as far as I can see.

Thanks for your input Edge. I disagree with you, and I think the Bible does also, but that can be chalked up to opinion. Opinions explain why there is so much harmony in the religious world

 

[This Guy]

I think the three days and three nights have been beat to death. I'll let others decide if there was a winner or not in the debate.

I'm going to go to the next NT prophecy I'd like to cover. Should someone else pop in and desire to discuss the three days and nights, we can suspend this topic and go back to cover the that one. But unless there is a more convincing argument presented, I'll be hesitant to do that.

From the very earliest days of the church, the apostles and first-generation Christians nurtured an earnest expectation and fervent hope that Christ might suddenly return at any time to gather His church to heaven. James, writing what was probably the earliest of the New Testament epistles, expressly told his readers that the Lord’s return was imminent

Not my words, but the words of John F. MacArthur, Jr.(PDF warning) President and Professor of Pastoral Ministries at The Master's Seminary.

The complete document linked above list multiple bits of scriptures from several of the Epistles that indicate the writers expected the return of Jesus to happen very soon. Even in their lifetime.

He list several reasons for this apparent expectation, but seems to have avoided one glaring reason. That reason would be that Jesus said it would be soon, even in the lifetime of some that he spoke to. It’s not hard to figure out why he would leave those references out. It is puzzling that he could believe what he wrote.

But, let’s see what Jesus had to say about his return.

Matthew 24

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 9

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark 13

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 9

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Matthew 16

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 26

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

This was said by Jesus about two thousand years ago. I think it’s safe to say that no one in the crowd that Jesus was talking to is still alive. Yet, to my knowledge, no on has seen “the Son of man coming in his kingdom” and "coming in the clouds of heaven."

In my opinion this is another prophecy made by Jesus that failed to be fulfilled.

For those that believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, please explain why I’m wrong.

 

[blobru]

... He list several reasons for this apparent expectation, but seems to have avoided one glaring reason. That reason would be that Jesus said it would be soon, even in the lifetime of some that he spoke to. It’s not hard to figure out why he would leave those references out. It is puzzling that he could believe what he wrote.

But, let’s see what Jesus had to say about his return.

This Guy, I agree with you Jesus is talking out his arse here, but I think believers have a workaround...

Matthew 24

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

...

Mark 13

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Where he speaks of "this generation", Xtians might see it as "this generation [plus descendants]", which includes basically everyone alive today (this 'era' or 'age', in other words).

Mark 9

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 9

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Matthew 16

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 26

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Where he says "some standing here, which shall not taste of death," Xtians might interpret that as referring to the Day of Judgement in Revelation.

So, those "standing there" who became Xtians would be the "some... which shall not taste of death"; the rest of us, Jesus slaughters, feeds to vultures, reassembles, and/or burns alive in a lake of poison.*

*The Golden Rule having been suspended for Judgement Day...

(& Matthew 26 is just to identify Jesus as the J-Day judge it seems.)

This was said by Jesus about two thousand years ago. I think it’s safe to say that no one in the crowd that Jesus was talking to is still alive. Yet, to my knowledge, no on has seen “the Son of man coming in his kingdom” and "coming in the clouds of heaven."

In my opinion this is another prophecy made by Jesus that failed to be fulfilled.

For those that believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, please explain why I’m wrong.

I'd be interested too in any other explanations.

 

[edge]

OK, I'm going with your opinion being the three days and three nights started Thursday Night when Jesus was arrested and all the nasty stuff started.

Then the end of the three days and three nights being Sunday, the first day of the week, when he was taken up to heaven.

That is what I understand you to be saying. I still disagree with your logic, but I guess we have to agree to disagree there. That's fine.

The real problem with your time line has to do with when Jesus was taken up. Was that Sunday? Let's see

John 20

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

So, Sunday evening, Jesus went to the disciples in John 20, verses 18 and 19.

John 21

1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.

2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.

3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.

4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

In John 21 verse 4 the next morning has come and Jesus is still on earth.

Sorry, but your opinion and the Bible disagree on the facts involved.

I still say Jesus meant he would be in the earth 3 days and three nights. I still think your idea, and the one you quoted, about the three days starting with the arrest is a bit off the wall. I think you and the quoted person are applying a convoluted interpretation to some very simple passages. But, that is your prerogative. Again, I guess we have to agree to disagree. Still Thursday night to sometime Monday does not equal three days and three nights either. And John doesn't tell us when Jesus went up, so there is no way to figure that out from him, as far as I can see.

Thanks for your input Edge. I disagree with you, and I think the Bible does also, but that can be chalked up to opinion. Opinions explain why there is so much harmony in the religious world

What you are basically saying is that after the ascension and completion of the resurrection that occurred Sunday night that Jesus wasn't capable of leaving heaven and returning for a last goodbye and more proof that he was in spirit with God as he worked another miracle to the fishermen.
This would have occurred Monday morning.
There is also the possibility that he was in two places at once.
After the ascension all places at once, Glory be!

And this,
Quote:
Matthew 24

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

...

Mark 13

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Mark 9

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

This is a prophesy that the ransom sacrifice of Jesus was to be a success,

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”.

Death will be defeated and that we will see the next life upon his resurrection, (these things being fulfilled) and the ascension.
None of us (That believe) after his sacrifice will taste death.
Blubro said,

Where he speaks of "this generation", Xtians might see it as "this generation [plus descendants]", which includes basically everyone alive today (this 'era' or 'age', in other words).

That’s true where he gets specific in Matthew, The generation of mankind.
For the next physical appearance to the world and an end of times or generations.



More prophesy?
Mark 9

9And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

Jesus’ main them here is I have to do this first, then you are covered now and in the end,
Till; the end of the world, I will then return, and reestablish a new heaven a new earth.
But this is actually an intervention before destruction, brought on by US the heart of the Earth.
This is interesting,

11And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
12And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
14And when he came to his disciples, he saw a great multitude about them, and the scribes questioning with them.
15And straightway all the people, when they beheld him, were greatly amazed, and running to him saluted him.
16And he asked the scribes, What question ye with them?

For the phophet of the Hebrew Bible, see Elijah.

Later on this,

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
30And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it.
31For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

[This Kind]! The symptoms of the child in-between those two quotes.

17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
Here’s the physical and,
18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
Here’s the psychological affliction,
22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

26And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

Then this,

30And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; he would not that any man should know it
31For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

There are reasons why certain elements were to be cloudy.
That is that there was another principality at work against redemption and salvation.
Before Jesus and after Jesus.
It’s been proved and that is the theme.
All along!

 

[I Ratant]

Apostle's Creed:
" suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again from the dead. "
.
Normally this is interpreted as 3 days in Hell.. or Barstow, whichever, beginning with the burial.

 

[This Guy]

What you are basically saying is that after the ascension and completion of the resurrection that occurred Sunday night that Jesus wasn't capable of leaving heaven and returning for a last goodbye and more proof that he was in spirit with God as he worked another miracle to the fishermen.
This would have occurred Monday morning.
There is also the possibility that he was in two places at once.
After the ascension all places at once, Glory be!

And this,
Quote:
Matthew 24

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

...

Mark 13

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

This is a prophesy that the ransom sacrifice of Jesus was to be a success,



Death will be defeated and that we will see the next life upon his resurrection, (these things being fulfilled) and the ascension.
None of us (That believe) after his sacrifice will taste death.
Blubro said,



That’s true where he gets specific in Matthew, The generation of mankind.
For the next physical appearance to the world and an end of times or generations.



More prophesy?
Mark 9


Jesus’ main them here is I have to do this first, then you are covered now and in the end,
Till; the end of the world, I will then return, and reestablish a new heaven a new earth.
But this is actually an intervention before destruction, brought on by US the heart of the Earth.
This is interesting,

For the phophet of the Hebrew Bible, see Elijah.

Later on this,

[This Kind]! The symptoms of the child in-between those two quotes.


26And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

Then this,

There are reasons why certain elements were to be cloudy.
That is that there was another principality at work against redemption and salvation.
Before Jesus and after Jesus.
It’s been proved and that is the theme.
All along!

I'm skipping the part about the three day and nights. I've agreed to disagree with you on that

As for the rest:

Without going into all the information you provide, let's look at one of the passages that you did not respond to.

Matthew 26

62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

I added a couple verses so the full context can be seen. And bolded the parts I find important.

Jesus was talking to the high priest, no one else. He plainly stated to the high priest that "Hereafter shall ye see the son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

It's a very simple statement, aimed at one man.

I submit that Caiaphas (the high priest) did not see Jesus "coming in the clouds".

Jesus said he would.

Who's correct?

 

[This Guy]

What you are basically saying is that after the ascension and completion of the resurrection that occurred Sunday night that Jesus wasn't capable of leaving heaven and returning for a last goodbye and more proof that he was in spirit with God as he worked another miracle to the fishermen.
This would have occurred Monday morning.
There is also the possibility that he was in two places at once.
After the ascension all places at once, Glory be!

Snipped stuff about Jesus' return so the topics would be separated.

OK, let's have a go at this.

First you come up with some convoluted interpretation about Heart of the Earth actually meaning Heart of Man, and change Jesus' words from I'll be in the earth 3 days and three nights to I'll be persecuted, crucified, and buried, resurrected, and ascend to Heaven all over a period of three days and three nights. Then you decide Jesus went up to Heaven on Sunday evening. When I showed from the Bible that he was still on earth on Monday you decide that he could have come back to visit, or was at two places at once.

Well, I suppose this could all be true. It could also be true that Xenu picked him up in one of his DC9s and brought him back for that visit. But nothing is said about any of that in the Bible.

Please show me in any of the 4 Gospels where it says Jesus went up to heaven on Sunday.

I've shown you where it says he was on earth on Monday. Show me in scripture where he left on Sunday, please.

 

[Ladewig]

Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

This is a prophesy that the ransom sacrifice of Jesus was to be a success,

Death will be defeated and that we will see the next life upon his resurrection, (these things being fulfilled) and the ascension.
None of us (That believe) after his sacrifice will taste death.

The word "till" make your interpretation very hard to accept. If Jesus's death allows true Christians to not taste death then why add "till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" (and similar wording in the related verses)? If your view were correct, then believers would escape death by going to Heaven and seeing God but when the second coming arrived, these believers would then taste death. Surely, the saved don't taste death after the Kingdom of God arrives on earth.

 

[edge]

I submit that Caiaphas (the high priest) did not see Jesus "coming in the clouds".

I submit that he(Caiaphas), did upon his death.

First you come up with some convoluted interpretation about Heart of the Earth actually meaning Heart of Man, and change Jesus' words from I'll be in the earth 3 days and three nights to I'll be persecuted, crucified, and buried, resurrected, and ascend to Heaven all over a period of three days and three nights.

This is from that author of that site.


This is the way I see it.

Then you decide Jesus went up to Heaven on Sunday evening. When I showed from the Bible that he was still on earth on Monday you decide that he could have come back to visit, or was at two places at once.

I’m supposing it all could be true too.

Taking into account all the time that passes till they go to and fro to the tomb then walking to the next city later that afternoon and into the evening at which point they talk and there all or most of the disciples present and after all that on the conclusion of that meeting which I would say would be that night he Jesus ascends to his Father.
That too is witnessed.
If they were all on foot then lots of time was spent traveling.
I would say hours.

Please show me in any of the 4 Gospels where it says Jesus went up to heaven on Sunday.

We can assume by the time they get to where the angels told them They would see him, that it had to be in the evening and since I walk everyday about 3 miles I can tell you it was evening when they had that last meeting according to the events as they stated.
This taking into consideration of what humans have to do from the waking state in the morning till that evening and all that was written as an account.

I would say that roughly 3 hours where spent walking back and forth to the tomb Then the private conversations about the event eating and ablutions another hour or so then the decision to go and witness to others and to witness the next set of events, TO see HIM, some twenty miles away, on foot, so another at least 6 hours passes or more.

7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you.

After getting to Galilee,
From Mark,

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Bolding mine.

From Luke,

50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

That’s twice.
You need to understand the Heart of the Earth, which that link provides you to understand.
If they started that morning at lets say 8:00by 5:00 or 6:00 o’clock they would be on the road or there abouts and be meeting Jesus on the road.
Either way it’s covered I believe, if you start on Thursday night till Sunday morning, or Friday till Sunday evening.
But it doesn’t say ground.
For you, it all comes back to the heart of the Earth.
But either way the heart of the earth for my explanation or the other that I provided probably means US. That’s after all what it’s about US.
It’s good we can have this talk.
When he went to the Father he left physically not spiritually he physically left the heart of the earth behind not spiritually.

Ladewig,

"till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power"

That I believe is directed to the unbelievers.
If you look at the end mark 8 they are talking to a crowd, I believe this was taken into the beginning of mark 9. Bad editing.

Then this six days later,

Mark 9
The Transfiguration
2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

 

[This Guy]

I submit that he(Caiaphas), did upon his death.



This is from that author of that site.


This is the way I see it.

I’m supposing it all could be true too.

Taking into account all the time that passes till they go to and fro to the tomb then walking to the next city later that afternoon and into the evening at which point they talk and there all or most of the disciples present and after all that on the conclusion of that meeting which I would say would be that night he Jesus ascends to his Father.
That too is witnessed.
If they were all on foot then lots of time was spent traveling.
I would say hours.



We can assume by the time they get to where the angels told them They would see him, that it had to be in the evening and since I walk everyday about 3 miles I can tell you it was evening when they had that last meeting according to the events as they stated.
This taking into consideration of what humans have to do from the waking state in the morning till that evening and all that was written as an account.

I would say that roughly 3 hours where spent walking back and forth to the tomb Then the private conversations about the event eating and ablutions another hour or so then the decision to go and witness to others and to witness the next set of events, TO see HIM, some twenty miles away, on foot, so another at least 6 hours passes or more.




After getting to Galilee,
From Mark,

Bolding mine.

From Luke,
That’s twice.
You need to understand the Heart of the Earth, which that link provides you to understand.
If they started that morning at lets say 8:00by 5:00 or 6:00 o’clock they would be on the road or there abouts and be meeting Jesus on the road.
Either way it’s covered I believe, if you start on Thursday night till Sunday morning, or Friday till Sunday evening.
But it doesn’t say ground.
For you, it all comes back to the heart of the Earth.
But either way the heart of the earth for my explanation or the other that I provided probably means US. That’s after all what it’s about US.
It’s good we can have this talk.
When he went to the Father he left physically not spiritually he physically left the heart of the earth behind not spiritually.

SNIPPED stuff not addressed to me.

See the words I bolded? See the problem?

I asked for you to show me where, in the Bible it says Jesus went up to heaven on Sunday, and you give me:

I’m supposing
Taking into account
I would say
I would say
I would say
We can assume

It goes on and on and on.

I did not ask what you would say though. I asked what your Bible does say. Please show me where your Bible says Jesus went up to Heaven on Sunday.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Silentknight Yes what logical sense you make, NOT.
They publicly execute the head of the revolution; they keep Christianity going so they could perpetuate a lie and take the risk of being executed for doing so and to do this after Jesus prophesied the same would happen to them when they spread the knowledge of Christ and the redemption.


Especially after witnessing the brutal execution and everything else they did to Christ.

I think the logical thing to do if it was a lie would be to go back to the status-que religion and ask for redemption that they couldn’t give apparently!

But that’s not what happened.

But you would try having us believe that they would keep up with abuse thrown at them and persecution, execution, be-headings, eaten by lions and all other forms of abuse just to perpetuate a lie.
After seeing what the powers to be back then, would do, crucify by the hundreds?
Especially when there was no profit in doing so only more misery at that time.
So that logic doesn't wash at all, there was something greater at work.

That's an idiotic argument. People martyr themselves for stupid causes and false beliefs all the time. You need not look any further than cults such as the Branch Davidians, or Joseph Smith and many of his followers, or Islamic terrorists and suicide bombers, to know that dying for a cause does not make that cause sacred. People die in attempted robberies all the time; does that make robbery sacred? The soldiers of Nazi Germany died fighting for Hitler's Third Reich. If all it takes to convince you of a divine agency is for people to kill or be killed for their beliefs, then you might as well go ahead and put your stock in every single ridiculous / dangerous belief system out there. The argument you posted isn't that far removed.