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Random mutations cannot explain evolution of humans

That's about as unlikely as anything wogoga has claimed. More so, because we don't know the rules for his magic "psychons", whereas we do have quite a good understanding of genetics as understood by geneticists.


Sure, his statement was a total straw man, so the tail fins and training wheels don't make it get up and dance.

My statement was about how variation in expression of traits does allow for the transition to things like upright gait, since there seems to be a mischaracterization of natural slelection and mutation.
 
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Whoops I was just reading the updates and realized that when I edited my last post I broke the recurrence relation.

It should be:
P(t) = 2*P(t-1)+1
Not
P(t) = 2*P(t-1)-1
Doh!

The analytical fit is still correct:
P(t)=2^t-1
 
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First, you assume that there is only one way for a phenotype to be encoded by a genotype. This is not the case.

Nor is convergent evolution a recent observation.

You're hitting an important point here, because wogoga and his ilk are fixated on how likely this exact outcome is. Which is not very. The importance of this particular outcome is assumed, given that it's the one wogoga et al live in. Which has to make it very special.

What they're lacking is any sense of scale.
 
Damn! This is why Dr Adequate keeps winning those language awards. :p

"Natural Selection" is good, but a bit dry and soooo not even last century, don't you think? "The Cut" is way more graphic and this century.

Will Inventive Design make the cut? Most definitely. Intelligent Design? Not so much. It may be surprising how quickly people stop caring when their jobs and homes are at risk (however remotely). People are not good at assessing risk, but the threat of Darwinism does not loom large during difficult times.
 
Nor is convergent evolution a recent observation.

You're hitting an important point here, because wogoga and his ilk are fixated on how likely this exact outcome is. Which is not very. The importance of this particular outcome is assumed, given that it's the one wogoga et al live in. Which has to make it very special.

What they're lacking is any sense of scale.

That is an excellent point. A lot of these arguments stem around an inability to recognize exactly how orders of magnitude and levels of description play into these things. I guess no human can actually visualize numbers as large or as small as we talk about, so it can be easy to make mistakes in interpretation. I think a lot of the disagreement stems from honest mistakes in the methods of science and logic,which we all make. Unfortunately, If you aren't familiar with the appropriate mathematical tools to deal with issues of scale you are more likely to make more mistakes.

Also,
I looked up the name of that bacteria. Its called: Agrobacterium tumefaciens
The wikipedia article on it is a bit technical, but this article is clearer to a person
that doesn't have a background in genetics:
http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/BA/Transforming_Plants.html
 
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A superficial reading through this thread might give the impression that my argument is nonsensical and full of logical errors, at least when relying on the authority of orthodox posters. Here once again the concrete application of my argument:

The upright gait was only one of many traits which had to evolve in us after our separation from chimps. For that to happen, the structures of bones, of muscles and of tendons had to gradually change. Let us ignore that in fact the bone structure (involved in the upright-gait evolution) alone consists of several bones with each several traits.

So let us make the completely unrealistic assumption that one 'progressive' single-step mutation in the genetic factor of each (i.e. bone, muscle and tendon) structure is enough to entail a relevant increase in fitness.

Let us further assume that the probability of such progressive mutations in newborns is each as high as 10^-5. So we conclude that among 10^15 newborns (i.e. a billion newborns of a million generations), only one individual will carry all three necessary mutations.

Because a change in only one or two of the three involved structures cannot lead to a relevant increase in fitness (rather the contrary), it becomes obvious that the upright gait cannot have evolved in a neo-Darwinian way.

Assuming that "the probability of such progressive mutations in newborns is each as high as 10^-5" and using my upper limit of a billion newborns per year, Cosima 'refutes' my argument in this way:

10^9*10^-5=10^4. We can expect one beneficial mutation to occur in as many as 10000 individuals per generation.

So after the first year of our thought experiment we have:
10000 individuals with mutation A
10000 individuals with mutation B
10000 individuals with mutation C

Actually this means:
  • 10000 individuals with a relevant change only in the bone structure (i.e. without changes in the muscles and tendons)
  • 10000 individuals with a relevant change only in the muscle structure
  • 10000 individuals with a relevant change only in the tendon structure.
The assumption that a mutation having a probability of 10^-5 per birth (and normally affecting 0.25 byte of the DNA) changes all the many components of the proto-chimp/human body in such a coordinated and effective way that a substantial increase in fitness is the result, is so mind-bogglingly absurd that only blind dogmatism can explain such a belief.

The following is correct:

The probability that any one of these individuals has any two mutations is unlikely and the probability that any one individual has all three is infinitesimally small at this point.

But its continuation is nothing more than wishful thinking:

But, since each of these mutations increases fitness independently, we can assume that these individuals will do better than the others. Increasing their numbers in the next generation. So lets say the number of individuals inheriting each one of the 3 mutations doubles each generation.

Cheers, Wolfgang
 
Wow, that is just so brilliant Wogaga! I have changed my mind, you are lame.

Funny how you can't counter the many decnt arguments here and so you resort to political characterization and repetition.

Your grade is now an "F-", you have to take summer school before you can graduate from high school.
 
Let us further assume that the probability of such progressive mutations in newborns is each as high as 10^-5. So we conclude that among 10^15 newborns (i.e. a billion newborns of a million generations), only one individual will carry all three necessary mutations.

Even if we accepted your numbers, there would be no problem. That individual would typically be born, say, halfway through your million generations. In 500,000 generations, even a mutation offering only a tiny reproductive advantage will spread throughout the population.

But your entire method of reasoning is false from the very beginning. You cannot pick one trait - upright gait, for example - and then compute the odds it would evolve if you went back and started evolution over again. Or rather you can, but the odds are totally meaningless.

It's akin to catching a single snowflake, observing its structure, and then asking - what are the odds that the snowflake I caught had this structure? Answer: unimaginably tiny... and yet you still caught that snowflake! Why? Because the odds of catching some snowflake are 1.

Just as with the snowflake, the odds you should be computing are the odds that after a million generations there will be some differences, not the odds for any specific one.
 
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A superficial reading through this thread might give the impression that my argument is nonsensical and full of logical errors ...
Yes. It's all the mistakes that give the impression.

So let us make the completely unrealistic assumption ...
I prefer not to make completely unrealistic assumptions.

Because a change in only one or two of the three involved structures cannot lead to a relevant increase in fitness (rather the contrary) ...
Yes, that can be a real problem. For example, I get my tendons from my mother's side and my bones from my father's side. The result is that my tendons are six inches too short for my skeleton. It's a bugger.

Oh wait, that sort of thing never ever happens, does it?
 
It's useless to try to argue that walking upright is impossible through Darwinian Evolution. We already have the fossil record showing us the general progression that occured, through history. It's not like it is utterly impossible

Perhaps your sources on how Evolution works are flawed, Wogoga. There is no reason to assume each bone had to alter itself individually. Many bones could change in structure, in a single generation.

Perhaps learning more details about embryology and how traits emerge from genes during the process, would help you understand? Let's see if I can find some good resources...
 
I hope you agree that if the vast majority of this huge number of synaptic connections were built up randomly, a normal human behaviour could not emerge. On the one hand we a relevant genetic information of 10^7 or 10^8 byte for the total ontogenetic development, and on the other hand only in the brain an architecture involving 10^15 synaptic connections. This results in less than 10^-7 or 10^-8 byte genetic information per synapse.

So whereas the genetic information of a human only constitutes a small fraction of the storage capacity of a DVD disc of 4.7 Gigabyte, in order to store all the synaptic connections of a three-year-old child, around a million DVD discs are needed.


10 N=1
20 N=N+1
30 Print N
40 Goto 20

How many DVD discs would it take to store the output of that little algorithm? How many bytes did it take to generate it?

Does that mean it's impossible?
 
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The assumption that a mutation having a probability of 10^-5 per birth (and normally affecting 0.25 byte of the DNA) changes all the many components of the proto-chimp/human body in such a coordinated and effective way that a substantial increase in fitness is the result, is so mind-bogglingly absurd that only blind dogmatism can explain such a belief.

Its now clear the rest of your argument was just a smoke screen and you're just towing the "irreducible complexity" party line of creationists. Moreover you are just asserting the claim that intermediate steps must not increase fitness individually. You don't provide any evidence of it. You should have just told us you were a creationist that denies evolution in the first place and saved us a lot of time.

You can't just assert that each individual mutation does not independently increase fitness. Every case that evolutionary biologists study in detail where the record survives, actually indicates that you're wrong. Also, I don't think anyone is going to take assertions about what is and is not "mind-bogglingly absurd" from the guy who claims that decreases in fertility are because we've depleted are supply of soul juice. You believe without question in the existence of 'psychons' yet you accuse us of dogmatism? lol....
 
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The assumption that a mutation having a probability of 10^-5 per birth (and normally affecting 0.25 byte of the DNA) changes all the many components of the proto-chimp/human body in such a coordinated and effective way that a substantial increase in fitness is the result, is so mind-bogglingly absurd that only blind dogmatism can explain such a belief.


Of course no mutation can spread or persist in the species gene pool unless it provides "a substantial increase in fitness"!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!

How mind-numbingly simple-minded! That almost makes me want to post a kitten picture or one of those funny "The Stupid - it Burnz" pictures so prevalent on the web.
 
Of course no mutation can spread or persist in the species gene pool unless it provides "a substantial increase in fitness"!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!

How mind-numbingly simple-minded! That almost makes me want to post a kitten picture or one of those funny "The Stupid - it Burnz" pictures so prevalent on the web.

Or maybe just rickroll and hope the thread gets condemned to aah.
 
I think you guys are missing the point.

Wogoga isn't saying that evolution didn't happen. His argument is that evolution by natural selection of mutations didn't happen because the probability is too low, so it must have been directed by an external agency. In his case that external agency is the "Psychon", or soul, which he believes resides in all living things, and all atoms.

His probability argument is a way to satisfy himself that his Psychon theory is correct.
 
I think you guys are missing the point.

Wogoga isn't saying that evolution didn't happen. His argument is that evolution by natural selection of mutations didn't happen because the probability is too low, so it must have been directed by an external agency. In his case that external agency is the "Psychon", or soul, which he believes resides in all living things, and all atoms.

His probability argument is a way to satisfy himself that his Psychon theory is correct.

Who's missing his point? I think we get that. Personally, thats why I try to spend at least half my time poking fun at his soul-juice theory.

:D
 

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