Acupuncture appears to show results.

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

The incidence of harm is probably low, though I don't think I'd like to let anyone who believes in a medical philosophy which doesn't accept the germ theory of disease stick needles in me.

<snip>

Belief is no guarantee of compliance. What was one of the causes of the spread of hospital acquired infections again? Physicians not washing their hands in between seeing patients!

Many acupuncturists use single-use pre-sterilised needles.

See this code of practice:

http://www.swansea.gov.uk/media/pdf/skin piercing Acupuncture Guide.pdf

ETA: See how much I trust physicians!? I subconsciously used the past tense 'was' when referring to their lack of hand washing in between seeing patients.

 

[BillyJoe]

Would knowing Mandarin help?

Our Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, speaks Mandarin fluently and had his student audience in stitches during his recent visit to China. It certainly helped him.

Interestingly, when asked about TCM, he diplomatically deferred.

 

[dogjones]

Actually, there was a conversation here about whether or not 'Doctor' was a protected title and I seem to recall that it wasn't. I wonder if 'Professor' is even a protected title, or whether anyone can make up business cards with that title.

Linda

You're right - "Professor" is not a protected title. At least, I was advised that by the legal dept of an insurance company whilst I was doing anti-fraud training for them.

It seems anyone can profess to be a professor, whether they are professional or otherwise.

 

[jli]

Every doctor should know Latin. In which language are you going to prescribe if you are, say, in Germany?

Well "doctors latin" isn´t really latin (In Denmark anyway). It´s rather a mixture of latin and greek.

 

[fls]

Well "doctors latin" isn´t really latin (In Denmark anyway). It´s rather a mixture of latin and greek.

Yeah, I once made an incredibly clever and amusing medical joke based on the phrase "it's all Greek to me". Of course, (as our memory is wont to do) I no longer remember the actual joke, only the qualities of the joke.

Linda

 

[jli]

Yeah, I once made an incredibly clever and amusing medical joke based on the phrase "it's all Greek to me". Of course, (as our memory is wont to do) I no longer remember the actual joke, only the qualities of the joke.
Linda

I once heard this anecdote: A medical student at the anatomy exam was asked to tell what the throat was called in latin. The student speculated and couldn´t come up with the answer. At last the professor revealed that the answer was larynx. Larynx??? the student said. Isn´t that greek???.

The anecdote doesn´t say if the student passed

 

[wahrheit]

... the phrase "it's all Greek to me".

In German, my first language, the equivalent phrase is "it's all Spanish to me".

Since I moved to Spain, I'm lost! I don't know how to express that feeling anymore.

 

[Deetee]

Jugulus, if I recall correctly.

 

[The Atheist]

So I'm really not in favour of encouraging people to charge money for this exercise, and promote it, and claim benefits for it, and encourage sick people to submit to it.

Rolfe.

Now that's a simply stated and very effective case - excellent post.

I'd never heard of the pneumothorax business, but I'll be asking anyone I talk to about acupuncture in future if they're aware of it.

Cheers

 

[BillyJoe]

I sometimes wonder if they could avoid all these problems with flawed clinical trials if researchers were required to submit their research protocol before actually conducting their clinical trials.

Perhaps we could have panels of experts in clinical trial design who would either approve the protocol submitted allowing the trial to go ahead or send it back to the researchers for fine tuning or a complete overhaul.

Perhaps these panels of experts could also write a book on clinical trial design which would be required reading for anyone thinking of setting up a clinical trial.

 

[Dogdoctor]

Now that's a simply stated and very effective case - excellent post.

I'd never heard of the pneumothorax business, but I'll be asking anyone I talk to about acupuncture in future if they're aware of it.

Cheers

One of my clients told me they had acupuncture done on themselves which resulted in a pneumothorax and an emergency visit to the hospital . What believers say is that it wasn't done properly. (no kidding, I agree, I mean if it punctures the lung that is way too deep )

 

[Deetee]

One of my clients told me they had acupuncture done on themselves which resulted in a pneumothorax and an emergency visit to the hospital . What believers say is that it wasn't done properly. (no kidding, I agree, I mean if it punctures the lung that is way too deep )

Beware. Pneumothorax is a recognised side effect, though very rare. But these anecdotes makes us sound a bit like the antivaxers sprinkling their web sites with tales of rare vaccine side effects, pretending they are the norm.

 

[The Atheist]

Beware. Pneumothorax is a recognised side effect, though very rare. But these anecdotes makes us sound a bit like the antivaxers sprinkling their web sites with tales of rare vaccine side effects, pretending they are the norm.

Can't agree.

Nobody denies that any vaccine will have a number of adverse effects in a huge sample.

People die under anaesthesia all the time, with a death rate in USA of 5 per 1,000,000. I bet a lot more people get an anaesthetic daily than have needles shoved into their lungs!

Wouldn't some honest statistics from China on deaths from pneumothorax make interesting reading? If they did full autopsies on them all, of course.

Medicine is honest about adverse effects. Do you think your average acupuncturist doing chest needling is going to tell someone that he's about to undertake a process which could kill them?

 

[JJM]

Beware. Pneumothorax is a recognised side effect, though very rare. But these anecdotes makes us sound a bit like the antivaxers sprinkling their web sites with tales of rare vaccine side effects, pretending they are the norm.

I agree that collecting anecdotes about quacks seems to support their anecdotes about problems with medicine. However, if we acknowledge that there are hazards to sCAM, and no proven benefits, we have a risk/benefit ratio that is unacceptably high (division by zero).

So, we have to point out that the procedure that caused pneumothorax was unnecessary (or challenge proponents to prove otherwise).

 

[Rolfe]

Beware. Pneumothorax is a recognised side effect, though very rare. But these anecdotes makes us sound a bit like the antivaxers sprinkling their web sites with tales of rare vaccine side effects, pretending they are the norm.

What JJM said. I certainly never claimed it was anything but rare. Although having said that, I would also reiterate that there is no structured mechanism for reporting and recording adverse incidents (as there is with real medicine), and so we are actually only assuming it's rare. (As an aside, look how scarily common the dissecting aneurism of the neck was found to be when people actually started looking at what was happening to chiropractic patients.)

However, my original post was in reply to someone whose thesis was that as acupuncture was safe (and cheap), then even if it only produces a tiny beneficial effect, it was all gain.

That thesis falls, as acupuncture is not safe. And while it may not be expensive, every penny spent on it is a penny given to a self-deluding and self-promoting quack. And if on top of that there is no discernible benefit, well, the cost/benefit ratio is somewhat the inverse of that originally suggested.

Rolfe.

 

[Dogdoctor]

While pneumothorax may be listed as a side effect, the intention of the acupuncturist is not to puncture the lungs. Believers will tell you that it is an error in technique that causes this side effect and that the person doing the acupuncture is likely not well trained. I am not saying there is data to support this view but just pointing out it isn't going to happen if you do it properly. It would be similar to saying that having a fatal pulmonary adverse reaction from intravenous injection of vaccine which is intended to be given subcutaneously or intramuscularly is a side effect of vaccination. Yes it is but not if you do it properly.

 

[Phytotherapist]

Linda - I'm sorry for what I said to you but I can't agree with youwhen you say that qualifications (medical) are not important.

I'm not practicing Acupuncture and I've never referred a single patient to an acupuncturist (an MD in Italy). However, after this study of Prof Facco, and the fact that Acupuncture has been endorsed by the Italian Ministry of Health and introduced in our Medical Schools (actually there are 4 Masters) and public hospitals, I wouldn't hesitate to refer a patient with intractable migrane to a qualified MD. The fact that Acupuncture has little or no economic interests is very significant. The only other complementary discipline that has been awarded an academic status by our Medical Schools is Phytotherapy (in which I'm much more interested) but then, one may think that it was only because huge economic interests are behind it, e.g. Bayer etc. On the other hand, no other so called complementary or alternative discipline has been (and never will) awarded such a status ( Homeopathy, Chiropractic, Osteopathy etc.).

Do you think the Italian medical scientists are quacks?

As for the Prof. Facco Mannitol investigations by Cochrane there is certainly a deontological problem but I wouldn't dare to say he is a crook.

Your daughter made the right choise. The only thing in Japan the official language is Japanese and not Mandarin. If she's interested in Medicine (real) the Italian language would be a good option. In Italy we have high quality Public Medical Schools (there are no private M.S.) that are subsidized by the State and the annual fee is minimal compared to that of US or other western countries. The Medical School in Padua (just a few Km from Venice) is the north-eastern hub in Medicine. The only drawback is that noone can buy a diploma there.

 

[Deetee]

What JJM said. I certainly never claimed it was anything but rare. Although having said that, I would also reiterate that there is no structured mechanism for reporting and recording adverse incidents (as there is with real medicine), and so we are actually only assuming it's rare. (As an aside, look how scarily common the dissecting aneurism of the neck was found to be when people actually started looking at what was happening to chiropractic patients.)

However, my original post was in reply to someone whose thesis was that as acupuncture was safe (and cheap), then even if it only produces a tiny beneficial effect, it was all gain.

That thesis falls, as acupuncture is not safe. And while it may not be expensive, every penny spent on it is a penny given to a self-deluding and self-promoting quack. And if on top of that there is no discernible benefit, well, the cost/benefit ratio is somewhat the inverse of that originally suggested.

Rolfe.

Thank you, JJM and the other vet bloke for nicely demonstrating the difference between an anecdote from an antivaxer/woo merchant, and one from a sceptic.
A woo would never be able to justify their position/opinion adequately.

I was just afraid the thread was turning into a sort of "My uncle knew a chap who had a pneumothorax" fest.

 

[BillyJoe]

Thank you, JJM and the other vet bloke ...

Oh, I see, I thought he was putting himself down as a dog of a doctor!

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Medicine is honest about adverse effects. Do you think your average acupuncturist doing chest needling is going to tell someone that he's about to undertake a process which could kill them?

Does the average taxi driver tell his passengers that he's about to undertake a process which could kill them?