Merged U.S.O.'s...what if...

[Correa Neto]

Always been here?

You mean a sentient species evolving and developing all the technology to build craft able to fly and navigate under the seas... And not a single barely good piece of evidence about them ever being found?

Industries, mines, cities etc. under the sea and not a single bit of evidence? No polution? No mines? No dumps? No corpses? Nothing?

Sorry. Very unlikley.

 

[Lynx2174]

When I saw the thread title, I read it as UFOs, and thought. "X-com".
Upon reading it, I thought "X-com, terror from the deep".

 

[Bikewer]

Well, it must be true; we had visits from the USO all the time when I was in the army. Usually, it was just bingo and stuff, but occasionally they'd book acts from the 'states....

None of 'em looked alien though, especially the drunken stand-up comics.

 

[King of the Americas]

Alright, ...IF...U.F.O.'s are NOT secret government developmental aircraft, then 'they' have to come from somewhere...another planet, the darkside of the moon perhaps, or the next place we know almost nothing about, the bottom of the ocean(s).

I read that everytime we study 10 feet 'deeper', we discover 75 new species of life.

I think whether or not we can scientifically 'prove' that U.F.O.'s or that U.S.O.'s exist and that they are piloted by non-human 'beings', isn't important within this discussion.

I mean that day won't come until it is forced upon us. For now, let's discuss where they are 'most probably' from...IF they did indeed exist. I mean, I think they are 'least' likely to be from another planet, from another solar system. I mean that's a long way to go over to see your neighbor, and then not drop by to say hello in a nice public manner, like at the World Series or something, maybe have a hotdog with Bono.

I think they 'might' have a base on the darkside of the moon, but who's been there to say whether or not that's the case either.

While we DO have acers and acers of unexplored forrestland, most of that has been photographed many times over. Surprises there are few and far between, but the oceans are a different tale altogether. Very little of the ocean floor has been mapped, and we know even less about the life that inhabits the deep.

I've never spoken to someone who has seen a U.S.O., and I have personally never witnessed one, so I personally wouldn't say that where I thought the came from, but who knows...

What I'd really like to know is, what is most probably?

 

[Drudgewire]

If I recall "Behold a Pale Horse" correctly, William Cooper's foray into conspiracy began when he saw a mile-long craft rise out of the water and take off, then he was debriefed for days until the Navy was sure he wouldn't spill the beans.

Nuff said.

 

[Loss Leader]

Alright, ...IF...U.F.O.'s are NOT secret government developmental aircraft, then 'they' have to come from somewhere...another planet, the darkside of the moon perhaps, or the next place we know almost nothing about, the bottom of the ocean(s).

What I'd really like to know is, what is most probably?

KotA, here's what you're asking: Is X more or less likely than Y?

X = UFO/USO's are from outer space.
Y = UFO/USO's are from non-humans on earth.

In deciding which is more or less likely, we need to examine the credible evidence. But we have no evidence whatsoever that favors one theory. The world's best and most reliable pilot might have seen a UFO. Let's agree that he did. let's agree that Chuck Yeager, the Pope, sixteen sober federal judges and Elliot Ness all saw a UFO. That doesn't do anything for your question.

They could have seen a UFO from space or a UFO from some sea creature. They wouldn't be able to tell the difference and neither can we.

As an example, I'll ask you: What markings or other visible charactaristics identify a UFO as being from a sea creature rather than a space alien?

You have no idea. The information doesn't exist.

And that's the bottom line. NO information exists.

Which is more likely? Neither is more likely. Both are equally likely/unlikely. We have absolutely zero evidence to even begin to guess.

So stop thinking about it.

 

[arthwollipot]

I think they 'might' have a base on the darkside of the moon, but who's been there to say whether or not that's the case either.

Well, actually there have been a number of astronauts who orbited the moon. Yes, both sides. And they did not report anything unusual.

There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark.

 

[devnull]

KotA, here's what you're asking: Is X more or less likely than Y?

X = UFO/USO's are from outer space.
Y = UFO/USO's are from non-humans on earth.

I vote that Z is infinitely more likely. Z being, ofcourse, that UFOs have mundane explanations and tin foil hats are not necessary.

 

[Foolmewunz]

KotA,
The problem is that you're working with an original hypothesis that isn't readily accepted and then working to convince us of an alternative. If most of us don't accept that UFOs have been prooven to exist, you're going to have trouble convincing us that they come from "somewhere else", because we don't believe they come from "somewhere"!

Yet! I believe that in the "list of cool stuff if it were only true", possibly the highest on the list and the highest likelihood is extraterrestrial life. Carl Sagan's number crunching rhetoric was pretty convincing on the subject. We've had a number of "What if" threads, and generally ETs and Cryptozoology (a few items, at any rate, especially Nessie) score very high amongst skeptics.

Skepticism isn't just debunking for debunking's sake. I, for one, believe that even if it may not happen in my lifetime, we will make contact with another species in the universe. If a spaceship land's tomorrow on the White House lawn or in Tiananmen Square, I'm going to be out there trying to get to meet 'em! I think a number of us feel that way.

So, it's interesting speculation, but it's just another sci fi theory from where I stand.

 

[Aitch]

As a matter of interest, how do you develop technology under water? Don't you generally need fire and/or electricity? Both of which are a bit difficult to organize at any great depth

Or did they develop it on land, carefully removing the evidence prior to moving off-shore?

 

[Cuddles]

I think I saw a documentary about this once. It was called "The Abyss".

Of course, there was another similar documentary called "The Kraken Wakes". Since that involved aliens from space and aliens coming up out of the sea it must be twice as true.

 

[Loss Leader]

As a matter of interest, how do you develop technology under water? Don't you generally need fire and/or electricity? Both of which are a bit difficult to organize at any great depth

Or did they develop it on land, carefully removing the evidence prior to moving off-shore?

Well, your theory is a little land-o-centric.

For example, there are plenty of compounds that just explode when exposed to air - phosphorus and sodium are two. These are much easier to work with underwater. I think it's fair to say that a sentient species who lived underwater might find solutions to engineering problems that we would not have thought of or could not have implemented.

I think it's much more logical to say that there is no evidence that such a civilization exists than to say that such a civilization probably could not exist.

 

[Ladewig]

Well, your theory is a little land-o-centric.

For example, there are plenty of compounds that just explode when exposed to air - phosphorus and sodium are two. These are much easier to work with underwater.

Actually, no. Sodium reacts more violently when exposed to water than it does when exposed to air.

I think it's fair to say that a sentient species who lived underwater might find solutions to engineering problems that we would not have thought of or could not have implemented.

I am not convinced it is fair to say that at all. Please note, the standard we are using to define civilization is that they have built a method of transportation that can leave the water and fly at high speeds at a variety of altitudes. The engineering problems include the mining, smelting, and refining of metals; the mining and refining of fuel; and the completion of all these tasks without leaving the slightest trace of it being done.

 

[Loss Leader]

The engineering problems include the mining, smelting, and refining of metals; the mining and refining of fuel; and the completion of all these tasks without leaving the slightest trace of it being done.

I'm sorry, you've misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about whether such a civilization does exist, I was answering Aitch's argument that such a civilization could not possibly exist because it could not overcome certain engineering problems.

My only point was that it is difficult for us to imagine what a hypothetical underwater civilization might theoretically be capable of. Being underwater would present certain obstacles but it might also offer certain benefits. We do not know if the mere fact of being underwater prohibits sentience.

Thus, it is more logical to say that we have no evidence that such a civilization exists than to say that it is theoretically impossible for such a civilization ever to exist.

Obviously, the idea that there is such a civilization on earth right now that we have not detected is utter lunacy.

 

[Ladewig]

I'm sorry, you've misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about whether such a civilization does exist, I was answering Aitch's argument that such a civilization could not possibly exist because it could not overcome certain engineering problems.

My only point was that it is difficult for us to imagine what a hypothetical underwater civilization might theoretically be capable of. Being underwater would present certain obstacles but it might also offer certain benefits. We do not know if the mere fact of being underwater prohibits sentience.

Thus, it is more logical to say that we have no evidence that such a civilization exists than to say that it is theoretically impossible for such a civilization ever to exist.

Then I'll amend my post to...

The engineering problems include the mining, smelting, and refining of metals; the mining and refining of fuel; and the completion of all these tasks without leaving the slightest trace of it being done.

I'll concede that an undersea race might build cities, manage tools, cultivate farms, domesticate animals, and keep written records. I will not concede that they might build flying machines that can hover, change direction, and fly several thousand feet into the air.

 

[arthwollipot]

Then I'll amend my post to...

The engineering problems include the mining, smelting, and refining of metals; the mining and refining of fuel; and the completion of all these tasks without leaving the slightest trace of it being done.

I'll concede that an undersea race might build cities, manage tools, cultivate farms, domesticate animals, and keep written records. I will not concede that they might build flying machines that can hover, change direction, and fly several thousand feet into the air.

I'll concede that. Happily. I won't concede that they could do this and still remain undetected by human science.

 

[bob_dezon]

Has anyone considered that this might just be a remnant of the jules verne books? People seem quite adept at rehashing old ideas for new eras.

 

[Franklin]

Part of the problem I've always had with UFO's is the way that "they" are always able to remain on the periphery of observation, evidence, or proof.

Many have seen them, but descriptions are as varied as can be. Saucers, cigar shapes, blue lights, green lights, strobes, electronic dampening effects, proximity alterations in conciousness (my favourite), pyschic emanations, small ones, big ones, little pink saucers with glowing polkadots.....one account I once read described a vehicle that strangely reminded me of the architecture of most "Federation" starships....

My point being, is that ET seems to have this fabulous ability to appear to a few, in isolated circumstances, or even occasionally before many, but never in a totally obvious and profound way, like hovering over the Superbowl for thirty seconds so that 50 million viewers can go........!!!????? bringing about global awareness that "they" are here.

This of course, shares in a modern way the very traits of traditonal folklore, wherein our ancestors saw Leprechauns, dragons, sea monsters, angels, various classical as well as regional gods and demi-gods, and of course, any other magical figures popular within the context of any given historical culture.

I've known a few navy guys who have served on subs, and that's a line of work where they are always looking for undersea vehicles, of course, this being mainly of the human kind. None of them have any stories of strange undersea cities or unexplainable sensor contacts that weren't whales or Russian/Soviet subs.

I doubt if a secret civilization either under the ice throughout our polar regions or under our oceans could mask their existence within the scrutiny of our modern military technological culture. As well, they would not be immune to accidents. And forget about coverups. I don't care how many papers I've signed or oaths I've made. If I had actual knowledge of UFO/ET's even within the military sector there is no way I could keep it to myself over time. It's just too big, too fantastic.

After all this time and interest, the evidence is all too flimsy, or what one would expect to exist from the imaginings, hallucinations, and yes, frauds, of human thought and fascination.

 

[Loss Leader]

I'll concede that an undersea race might build cities, manage tools, cultivate farms, domesticate animals, and keep written records. I will not concede that they might build flying machines that can hover, change direction, and fly several thousand feet into the air.

Certainly you must also concede that, given the invention of the flux capacitor, they should have no problem traveling through time.

 

[Aitch]

I'm sorry, you've misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about whether such a civilization does exist, I was answering Aitch's argument that such a civilization could not possibly exist because it could not overcome certain engineering problems.

Actually, I wasn't arguing that, as such; I was asking how it could exist. Surely the proponents of such a civilization could come up with an answer to my question?

However, as a USO/UFO implies a certain amount of high technology, I really would like to hear how you think it could be done?