Most atheists do not know what science says about our origins

[joobz]

If some atheists knew that science says all the millions of plant and animal species along with their family and friends all came from the same single cell they might not be so confident in their beliefs.

This is wrong, because many scientists know this fact and find the evidence confincing. It is not a question of faith, but evidence.

Right now a lot of atheists think "OK we're descendant from the apes" and they stop there because that can be somewhat believable.

This is wrong, because no educated athiest is as ignorant of evolution as you pretend.

But they don't go back any further in time.

This is wrong.

If they did go all the way back it would be more difficult to believe and their faith in atheism might not be as strong.

It's not a question of faith, but of evidence.

 

[joobz]

Do you have any evidence for this, or is it all just wishful thinking on your part?

I think DOC is hoping that "With faith, you can move mountains of evidence."

 

[wollery]

I note that DOC has gone from saying "most atheists" to "some atheists".

 

[Hokulele]

I note that DOC has gone from saying "most atheists" to "some atheists".

Although he is still calling atheism a belief.

 

[DOC]

Posted by DOC

If some atheists knew that science says all the millions of plant and animal species along with their family and friends all came from the same single cell they might not be so confident in their beliefs.

This is wrong, because many scientists know this fact and find the evidence confincing. It is not a question of faith, but evidence.

It would only be wrong if "all" atheists knew that all plants and animals came from a single cell (according to science) and found the evidence convincing.


Posted by DOC

Right now a lot of atheists think "OK we're descendant from the apes" and they stop there because that can be somewhat believable.

This is wrong, because no educated athiest is as ignorant of evolution as you pretend.

I would have to believe the majority of atheists never read Darwin's book "Origin of Species".

It's not a question of faith, but of evidence.

When you believe in Darwin's theory and you never read his actual books that is faith.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Why would we read a 19th century book when the 21st century work has much better information?

It'd be almost as silly as looking to a three thousand year old book to answer modern problems.

 

[Hokulele]

I would have to believe the majority of atheists never read Darwin's book "Origin of Species".

Mostly due to the fact that they do not have to. The evidence supporting evolution by natural selection is much greater than a single book of any length.

 

[joobz]

It would only be wrong if "all" atheists knew that all plants and animals came from a single cell (according to science) and found the evidence convincing.

That's your best defense is a technicality? You first say some athiests and then say a lot of athiests, but started this thread by saying most athiests.
Fine, you are correct, All of the infants born (athiests, all of them) are unaware of evolutionary theory.

I would have to believe the majority of atheists never read Darwin's book "Origin of Species".


When you believe in Darwin's theory and you never read his actual books that is faith.

DOC, please tell me you don't believe that evolutionary theory begins and ends with Darwin.

 

[DOC]

Posted by DOC

I would have to believe the majority of atheists never read Darwin's book "Origin of Species".

Mostly due to the fact that they do not have to. The evidence supporting evolution by natural selection is much greater than a single book of any length.

I would have to believe that even a greater number of atheists have not seen this so called supporting evidence you are talking about.

 

[joobz]

I would have to believe that even a greater number of atheists have not seen this so called supporting evidence you are talking about.

DOC, your beliefs are often in conflict with reality.

For instance, remember the time you claimed athiest countries had higher suicide rates?

 

[Hokulele]

I would have to believe that even a greater number of atheists have not seen this so called supporting evidence you are talking about.

You believe many things that are not true. This is just one out of an ever-growing list.

 

[joobz]

You believe many things that are not true. This is just one out of an ever-growing list.

I feel that since we both made this claim, we should provide evidence.

DOC claimed that god punishes countries with increased suicide as they become more secular

Well Japan and Scandinavian countries will suffer in other ways if they take God out of the picture --for example in higher suicide rates and higher rates of depression.

[URL="http://www.theforeigner-japan.com/archives/200304/news.htm"]http://www.theforeigner-japan.com/archives/200304/news.htm[/URL]

However, it seems that this statement is in complete conflict with the actual data.

I'm perfectly prepared to believe such a correlation is possible due to non-supernatural mechanisms. However I have found no evidence to support your claim that there is a correlation. It's your claim to prove or disprove. I'm just trying to help you do so. Don't get sulky with me if the data I've located for you doesn't bear out a claim for which you have provided no other substantial evidence. The data I have used comes from the world Christian Database. They are your fellow Christians

It says that the USA is

0.5% Athiest, 0.3 % Baha'i, 0.9% Buddhist, 84.1% Christian, 0.4% Hindu, 1.9% Jewish, 1.6% Muslim, 9.3% non-religious, 0.1% Sikh and 0.1 % Spiritist leaving 0.8% either unaccounted for or the result of rounding errors.

The site has data on

Atheists
Bahais
Buddhists
Chinese Universists
Christians
Confucianists
Hindus
Jains
Jews
Muslims
Non-Religious
Shintoists
Sikhs
Spiritist
Taoists
Zoroastrians

I've explained in a previous post there are less people who positively identify themsleves as atheist than who are classified as non-religious. It appears that this data treats atheists as a separate group from the non-religious. I would have treated atheists as a subset but that's just my preference.

In that post I did ask which data you'd prefer me to use. So instread of just calling your fellow christians over at the World Christian Database, liars, you could have offered constructive criticism in answer to my question.

I could total the number of Athiests and the number of Non religious people in each country and plot that against suicide rate.

Here we go. (Data included within spoiler tags to aid the readability of this post.

Country----Suicide Rate----Atheist or Non religious

Albania----4----16.4
Argentina----6.4----3.9
Armenia----1.8----14
Australia----12.7----16.9
Austria----17.9----14.4
Azerbaijan----1.1----10.3
"Bahamas, The"----1.1----5.7
Bahrain----3.1----0.3
Barbados----6.5----1.1
Belarus----35.1----29.4
Belgium----21.1----11.4
Belize----6.5----0.6
Benin----6.5----0.3
Bhutan----6.5----0.1
Bolivia----6.5----1.9
Bosnia and Herzegovina----11.8----4.8
Botswana----11.8----0.2
Bougainville----11.8----1.9
Brazil----4.1----2.8
Brunei----4.1----1
Bulgaria----14----4.4
Burkina Faso----14----0.7
Burma (Myanmar)----14----0.7
Burundi----14----0.1
Cambodia----14----2.6
Cameroon----14----0.5
Canada----11.9----14.1
Cape Verde----11.9----0.9
Central African Republic----11.9----0.7
Chad----11.9----0.1
Chile----5.7----9.8
China----5.7----48.2
Colombia----3.5----1.4
Comoros----3.5----0.1
"Congo, Democratic Republic of the"----3.5----0.5
"Congo, Republic of the"----3.5----3.1
Costa Rica----5.9----1.9
Cote d'Ivoire----5.9----0.4
Croatia----19.6----6.3
Cuba----18.3----28.1
Cyprus----18.3----5.1
Czech Republic----15.5----36.1
Denmark----13.6----9.8
Djibouti----13.6----1.3
Dominican Republic----0----2.6
East Timor----0----0.4
Ecuador----4.8----1.6
Egypt----0----0.6
El Salvador----7.9----1.5
Equatorial Guinea----7.9----5
Eritrea----7.9----2.9
Estonia----20.3----34.4
Ethiopia----20.3----0.2
Fiji----20.3----1.2
Finland----20.3----9.2
France----18----20
French Polynesia----18----5.2
Gabon----18----2.1
"Gambia, The"----18----0.6
Georgia----2.2----15.8
Germany----13.5----20.1
Ghana----13.5----0.3
Greece----2.9----2.4
Guadeloupe----2.9----3.1
Guatemala----2.1----1.6
Guinea----2.1----0.3
Guinea-Bissau----2.1----1.4
Guyana----27.2----2
Haiti----27.2----1.8
Honduras----0----1.2
Hungary----27.7----11.1
Iceland----12.6----2.2
India----10.7----1.5
Indonesia----10.7----2.1
Iran----0.2----0.3
Iraq----0.2----0.7
Ireland----0.2----3
Israel----6.2----5.9
Israeli Occupied Territories (Palestine)----6.2----5.6
Italy----7.1----16.5
Jamaica----0.1----4
Japan----24----13.1
Jordan----0----3
Kazakhstan----29.2----35.7
Kenya----29.2----0.1
"Korea, (North) Democratic Republic of"----29.2----71.3
"Korea, (South) Republic of"----29.2----1.6
Kuwait----2----0.7
Kyrgyzstan----9.6----27.4
Laos----9.6----4.4
Latvia----24.3----32.1
Lebanon----24.3----4.4
Lesotho----24.3----0.2
Liberia----24.3----1.6
Libya----24.3----0.2
Lithuania----38.6----12.2
Luxembourgh----10.9----6
Macedonia----10.9----7.4
Madagascar----10.9----0.5
Malawi----10.9----0.3
Malaysia----10.9----0.6
Maldives----10.9----0.1
Mali----10.9----0.1
Malta----5----1.5
Martinique----5----2.1
Mauritania----5----0.1
Mauritius----11.9----2.6
Mexico----3.1----2.6
Moldova----3.1----24
Mongolia----3.1----39
Morocco----3.1----0.9
Mozambique----3.1----0.6
Namibia----3.1----1.8
Nepal----3.1----0.4
Netherlands----9.2----22.3
Netherlands Antilles----9.2----3.4
New Caledonia----9.2----7.6
New Zealand----11.9----21.7
Nicaragua----3.4----1.6
Niger----3.4----0.1
Nigeria----3.4----0.3
Norway----11.5----2.7
Oman----11.5----0.2
Pakistan----11.5----0.1
Panama----6.3----3.5
Papua New Guinea----6.3----0.5
Paraguay----2.3----2
Peru----0.9----1.4
Philippines----2.1----0.9
Poland----15.5----4
Portugal----11.7----6.9
Puerto Rico----8.7----2.3
Qatar----8.7----2.4
Reunion----16.7----2
Romania----14.1----5.2
Russia----34.3----30.9
Rwanda----34.3----0.5
Saudi Arabia----0.9----0.7
Senegal----0.9----0.5
Serbia and Montenegro----19.3----15.7
Sierra Leone----13.2----2
Singapore----9.5----4.7
Slovakia----13.3----15.3
Slovenia----28.1----7.9
Solomon Islands----28.1----0.5
Somalia----28.1----0
Somaliland----28.1----0
South Africa----28.1----3.5
Spain----8.2----7.5
Sri Lanka----21.6----2.3
Sudan----3.4----1.2
Surinam----3.4----4.9
Swaziland----11.9----1.2
Sweden----13.2----30.1
Switzerland----17.4----9.9
Syria----0.1----2.7
Taiwan----0.1----4.4
Tajikistan----2.6----14.2
Tanzania----2.6----0.4
Thailand----4----2.1
Togo----4----0.2
Trinidad and Tobago----11.6----2.2
Tunisia----11.6----0.4
Turkey----11.6----2
Turkmenistan----8.6----10
Uganda----8.6----0.6
Ukraine----23.8----17.7
United Arab Emirates----23.8----1.3
United Kingdom----7----13.7
United States (General)----11----9.8
Uruguay----10.3----33.8
Uzbekistan----6.2----21.6
Vanuatu----6.2----0.7
Venezuela----5.1----2.5
Vietnam----5.1----19.6
Western Sahara----5.1----0.4
Yemen----5.1----0.1
Zambia----5.1----0.4
Zimbabwe----7.9----1.2

Any correlation?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10375&d=1205765004

No!

Or not knowing precisiely what you think the justification is for your claim, perhaps it's all non Chirstians who are more prone to suicide. I could subtract the number of Christians from 100% to give me the number of non christians in each country and plot that against suicide rate.

Here you go

Country----Suicide Rate----Non Christian

Albania----4----60
Argentina----6.4----7.9
Armenia----1.8----16.7
Australia----12.7----23.4
Austria----17.9----17.6
Azerbaijan----1.1----97.6
"Bahamas, The"----1.1----8.3
Bahrain----3.1----90.5
Barbados----6.5----3.7
Belarus----35.1----29.9
Belgium----21.1----15.6
Belize----6.5----9.4
Benin----6.5----68.2
Bhutan----6.5----99.2
Bolivia----6.5----6.6
Bosnia and Herzegovina----11.8----66.2
Botswana----11.8----35.9
Bougainville----11.8----6
Brazil----4.1----8.7
Brunei----4.1----84.6
Bulgaria----14----16.2
Burkina Faso----14----81.2
Burma (Myanmar)----14----91.7
Burundi----14----7.9
Cambodia----14----98.7
Cameroon----14----43.4
Canada----11.9----23.1
Cape Verde----11.9----4.9
Central African Republic----11.9----34.9
Chad----11.9----76.3
Chile----5.7----11.5
China----5.7----91.5
Colombia----3.5----3.3
Comoros----3.5----99.5
"Congo, Democratic Republic of the"----3.5----4.8
"Congo, Republic of the"----3.5----10.4
Costa Rica----5.9----3.6
Cote d'Ivoire----5.9----66.1
Croatia----19.6----8.9
Cuba----18.3----45.8
Cyprus----18.3----6.3
Czech Republic----15.5----36.3
Denmark----13.6----12.2
Djibouti----13.6----98.3
Dominican Republic----0----5
East Timor----0----15.8
Ecuador----4.8----2.9
Egypt----0----85.3
El Salvador----7.9----2.6
Equatorial Guinea----7.9----11.5
Eritrea----7.9----52.7
Estonia----20.3----34.9
Ethiopia----20.3----45.1
Fiji----20.3----43
Finland----20.3----9.6
France----18----30.7
French Polynesia----18----13.6
Gabon----18----10.6
"Gambia, The"----18----96
Georgia----2.2----35.8
Germany----13.5----25.1
Ghana----13.5----42.5
Greece----2.9----7.1
Guadeloupe----2.9----4.7
Guatemala----2.1----2.8
Guinea----2.1----96.6
Guinea-Bissau----2.1----86.8
Guyana----27.2----48.7
Haiti----27.2----4.7
Honduras----0----3.3
Hungary----27.7----12.4
Iceland----12.6----3.7
India----10.7----93.8
Indonesia----10.7----86.5
Iran----0.2----99.4
Iraq----0.2----97.3
Ireland----0.2----3.6
Israel----6.2----97.1
Israeli Occupied Territories (Palestine)----6.2----97.6
Italy----7.1----17.9
Jamaica----0.1----16
Japan----24----96.5
Jordan----0----97.1
Kazakhstan----29.2----85.9
Kenya----29.2----20.1
"Korea, (North) Democratic Republic of"----29.2----98
"Korea, (South) Republic of"----29.2----58.8
Kuwait----2----90.2
Kyrgyzstan----9.6----93.5
Laos----9.6----97.2
Latvia----24.3----32.8
Lebanon----24.3----63.8
Lesotho----24.3----8.3
Liberia----24.3----60
Libya----24.3----97.1
Lithuania----38.6----12.5
Luxembourgh----10.9----7.5
Macedonia----10.9----35.8
Madagascar----10.9----49.2
Malawi----10.9----23.2
Malaysia----10.9----90.6
Maldives----10.9----99.5
Mali----10.9----97.3
Malta----5----1.8
Martinique----5----3.3
Mauritania----5----99.8
Mauritius----11.9----67.4
Mexico----3.1----4.1
Moldova----3.1----30.6
Mongolia----3.1----98.5
Morocco----3.1----99.6
Mozambique----3.1----61.1
Namibia----3.1----9.1
Nepal----3.1----96.5
Netherlands----9.2----29.4
Netherlands Antilles----9.2----6
New Caledonia----9.2----13.3
New Zealand----11.9----25.2
Nicaragua----3.4----3.8
Niger----3.4----99.5
Nigeria----3.4----52.8
Norway----11.5----5.4
Oman----11.5----97.1
Pakistan----11.5----97.5
Panama----6.3----12.5
Papua New Guinea----6.3----5.2
Paraguay----2.3----4.5
Peru----0.9----3.5
Philippines----2.1----10.6
Poland----15.5----4
Portugal----11.7----8
Puerto Rico----8.7----3.3
Qatar----8.7----88.8
Reunion----16.7----12.4
Romania----14.1----6
Russia----34.3----40.3
Rwanda----34.3----22.3
Saudi Arabia----0.9----94.9
Senegal----0.9----94
Serbia and Montenegro----19.3----33.6
Sierra Leone----13.2----88.3
Singapore----9.5----84.6
Slovakia----13.3----15.3
Slovenia----28.1----9.2
Solomon Islands----28.1----4.7
Somalia----28.1----98.7
Somaliland----28.1----99.8
South Africa----28.1----18.1
Spain----8.2----8.7
Sri Lanka----21.6----90.5
Sudan----3.4----83.7
Surinam----3.4----48.9
Swaziland----11.9----12.4
Sweden----13.2----33
Switzerland----17.4----15.1
Syria----0.1----94.8
Taiwan----0.1----93.4
Tajikistan----2.6----98.5
Tanzania----2.6----46.7
Thailand----4----98.3
Togo----4----55.3
Trinidad and Tobago----11.6----37.3
Tunisia----11.6----99.5
Turkey----11.6----99.6
Turkmenistan----8.6----98.4
Uganda----8.6----11
Ukraine----23.8----19.9
United Arab Emirates----23.8----89.8
United Kingdom----7----18.5
United States (General)----11----15.9
Uruguay----10.3----35.4
Uzbekistan----6.2----98.5
Vanuatu----6.2----7.3
Venezuela----5.1----5.4
Vietnam----5.1----91.3
Western Sahara----5.1----99.8
Yemen----5.1----99.8
Zambia----5.1----16.7
Zimbabwe----7.9----31.7

Any correlation?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10376&d=1205765380

No!

Or I suppose the Muslims and the Jews belive in the same God too. Lets add the number of Jews, Christians and Muslims together, subtract that total from 100 to give a percentage on Non-JudeoChristians for each country and plot that against suicide rate.

Here you go

Country----Suicide Rate----Non-JudeoChristian

Albania----4----16.7
Argentina----6.4----4.6
Armenia----1.8----14.2
Australia----12.7----21.2
Austria----17.9----14.5
Azerbaijan----1.1----10.3
"Bahamas, The"----1.1----8
Bahrain----3.1----7
Barbados----6.5----2.9
Belarus----35.1----29.3
Belgium----21.1----11.8
Belize----6.5----7.7
Benin----6.5----47.8
Bhutan----6.5----98.2
Bolivia----6.5----6.6
Bosnia and Herzegovina----11.8----4.8
Botswana----11.8----35.6
Bougainville----11.8----6
Brazil----4.1----8.4
Brunei----4.1----31
Bulgaria----14----4.3
Burkina Faso----14----32.9
Burma (Myanmar)----14----89.3
Burundi----14----6.5
Cambodia----14----96.5
Cameroon----14----23.8
Canada----11.9----20.1
Cape Verde----11.9----2.1
Central African Republic----11.9----20.4
Chad----11.9----19.6
Chile----5.7----10.9
China----5.7----90
Colombia----3.5----3.2
Comoros----3.5----1.2
"Congo, Democratic Republic of the"----3.5----3.7
"Congo, Republic of the"----3.5----9.1
Costa Rica----5.9----3.5
Cote d'Ivoire----5.9----37.8
Croatia----19.6----6.3
Cuba----18.3----45.7
Cyprus----18.3----5.2
Czech Republic----15.5----36.2
Denmark----13.6----10
Djibouti----13.6----1.4
Dominican Republic----0----5
East Timor----0----12.6
Ecuador----4.8----2.9
Egypt----0----0.5
El Salvador----7.9----2.6
Equatorial Guinea----7.9----7.4
Eritrea----7.9----3.5
Estonia----20.3----34.5
Ethiopia----20.3----11
Fiji----20.3----36.1
Finland----20.3----9.3
France----18----21.5
French Polynesia----18----13.6
Gabon----18----6
"Gambia, The"----18----9.3
Georgia----2.2----15.8
Germany----13.5----20.3
Ghana----13.5----22.7
Greece----2.9----2.3
Guadeloupe----2.9----4.3
Guatemala----2.1----2.8
Guinea----2.1----28
Guinea-Bissau----2.1----46.1
Guyana----27.2----40.5
Haiti----27.2----4.7
Honduras----0----3.1
Hungary----27.7----11.2
Iceland----12.6----3.6
India----10.7----81.6
Indonesia----10.7----32.5
Iran----0.2----3.6
Iraq----0.2----0.8
Ireland----0.2----3
Israel----6.2----6.8
Israeli Occupied Territories (Palestine)----6.2----5.7
Italy----7.1----16.6
Jamaica----0.1----15.9
Japan----24----96.4
Jordan----0----3.3
Kazakhstan----29.2----36.1
Kenya----29.2----13.1
"Korea, (North) Democratic Republic of"----29.2----98
"Korea, (South) Republic of"----29.2----58.6
Kuwait----2----4.5
Kyrgyzstan----9.6----28.4
Laos----9.6----97.1
Latvia----24.3----32.1
Lebanon----24.3----4.5
Lesotho----24.3----8.2
Liberia----24.3----44
Libya----24.3----0.7
Lithuania----38.6----12.2
Luxembourgh----10.9----6.3
Macedonia----10.9----7.3
Madagascar----10.9----47.2
Malawi----10.9----7.6
Malaysia----10.9----44.7
Maldives----10.9----1.1
Mali----10.9----16.6
Malta----5----1.5
Martinique----5----3.1
Mauritania----5----0.7
Mauritius----11.9----50.5
Mexico----3.1----3.8
Moldova----3.1----24
Mongolia----3.1----93.7
Morocco----3.1----1
Mozambique----3.1----50.7
Namibia----3.1----8.6
Nepal----3.1----92.4
Netherlands----9.2----24.3
Netherlands Antilles----9.2----5.4
New Caledonia----9.2----10.6
New Zealand----11.9----24.8
Nicaragua----3.4----3.8
Niger----3.4----9.2
Nigeria----3.4----10.8
Norway----11.5----3.5
Oman----11.5----7.9
Pakistan----11.5----1.6
Panama----6.3----8
Papua New Guinea----6.3----5.2
Paraguay----2.3----4.4
Peru----0.9----3.5
Philippines----2.1----4.2
Poland----15.5----4
Portugal----11.7----7.8
Puerto Rico----8.7----3.2
Qatar----8.7----6.9
Reunion----16.7----8.2
Romania----14.1----5.3
Russia----34.3----32.5
Rwanda----34.3----9.5
Saudi Arabia----0.9----2.7
Senegal----0.9----6.8
Serbia and Montenegro----19.3----15.7
Sierra Leone----13.2----42.4
Singapore----9.5----66.2
Slovakia----13.3----15.3
Slovenia----28.1----7.9
Solomon Islands----28.1----4.4
Somalia----28.1----0.2
Somaliland----28.1----0.2
South Africa----28.1----15.3
Spain----8.2----7.7
Sri Lanka----21.6----81.5
Sudan----3.4----12.3
Surinam----3.4----35
Swaziland----11.9----11.7
Sweden----13.2----30.8
Switzerland----17.4----10.6
Syria----0.1----2.7
Taiwan----0.1----93
Tajikistan----2.6----14.6
Tanzania----2.6----16.6
Thailand----4----89.2
Togo----4----36.3
Trinidad and Tobago----11.6----30
Tunisia----11.6----0.5
Turkey----11.6----2.3
Turkmenistan----8.6----10.1
Uganda----8.6----5.6
Ukraine----23.8----17.7
United Arab Emirates----23.8----13.4
United Kingdom----7----15.8
United States (General)----11----12.4
Uruguay----10.3----34.2
Uzbekistan----6.2----21.9
Vanuatu----6.2----7.3
Venezuela----5.1----4.9
Vietnam----5.1----90.6
Western Sahara----5.1----0.4
Yemen----5.1----0.8
Zambia----5.1----15.6
Zimbabwe----7.9----30.9

Any correlation?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10377&d=1205765608

No!

Or maybe it's not just the Abrahamic God that has this hypothesised effect. Perhaps I should group Baha'is, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and Zoroastrians as theistic religions total those percentages and subtract that from 100 to get an indication of the number of non-thiests in each country. Then I could plot that against suicide rate.

Here you go

Country----Suicide Rate----Non Theistic

Albania----4----16.4
Argentina----6.4----4.6
Armenia----1.8----14.2
Australia----12.7----20.9
Austria----17.9----14.4
Azerbaijan----1.1----10.3
"Bahamas, The"----1.1----7.6
Bahrain----3.1----6.8
Barbados----6.5----1.6
Belarus----35.1----29.3
Belgium----21.1----11.8
Belize----6.5----4.8
Benin----6.5----47.6
Bhutan----6.5----98.2
Bolivia----6.5----4.6
Bosnia and Herzegovina----11.8----4.8
Botswana----11.8----34.8
Bougainville----11.8----6
Brazil----4.1----8.4
Brunei----4.1----30.7
Bulgaria----14----4.3
Burkina Faso----14----32.9
Burma (Myanmar)----14----89.1
Burundi----14----6.4
Cambodia----14----96.4
Cameroon----14----23.4
Canada----11.9----18.9
Cape Verde----11.9----1.9
Central African Republic----11.9----20.2
Chad----11.9----18.8
Chile----5.7----10.8
China----5.7----90
Colombia----3.5----3
Comoros----3.5----1.1
"Congo, Democratic Republic of the"----3.5----3.3
"Congo, Republic of the"----3.5----8.5
Costa Rica----5.9----3.2
Cote d'Ivoire----5.9----37.6
Croatia----19.6----6.3
Cuba----18.3----45.7
Cyprus----18.3----5.1
Czech Republic----15.5----36.2
Denmark----13.6----10
Djibouti----13.6----1.3
Dominican Republic----0----4.9
East Timor----0----12.5
Ecuador----4.8----2.8
Egypt----0----0.5
El Salvador----7.9----2.2
Equatorial Guinea----7.9----6.9
Eritrea----7.9----3.5
Estonia----20.3----34.5
Ethiopia----20.3----11
Fiji----20.3----34.7
Finland----20.3----9.3
France----18----21.5
French Polynesia----18----13.3
Gabon----18----6
"Gambia, The"----18----8.4
Georgia----2.2----15.8
Germany----13.5----20.3
Ghana----13.5----22.6
Greece----2.9----2.3
Guadeloupe----2.9----3.9
Guatemala----2.1----2.7
Guinea----2.1----28
Guinea-Bissau----2.1----46.1
Guyana----27.2----38.8
Haiti----27.2----4.5
Honduras----0----2.6
Hungary----27.7----11.2
Iceland----12.6----3.3
India----10.7----79.2
Indonesia----10.7----32.5
Iran----0.2----0.4
Iraq----0.2----0.8
Ireland----0.2----3
Israel----6.2----6.6
Israeli Occupied Territories (Palestine)----6.2----5.6
Italy----7.1----16.6
Jamaica----0.1----15.6
Japan----24----96.4
Jordan----0----3
Kazakhstan----29.2----36
Kenya----29.2----12
"Korea, (North) Democratic Republic of"----29.2----98
"Korea, (South) Republic of"----29.2----58.5
Kuwait----2----4
Kyrgyzstan----9.6----28.3
Laos----9.6----97.1
Latvia----24.3----32.1
Lebanon----24.3----4.4
Lesotho----24.3----7.3
Liberia----24.3----43.7
Libya----24.3----0.7
Lithuania----38.6----12.2
Luxembourgh----10.9----5.9
Macedonia----10.9----7.3
Madagascar----10.9----47.1
Malawi----10.9----7.4
Malaysia----10.9----44.1
Maldives----10.9----1.1
Mali----10.9----16.6
Malta----5----1.4
Martinique----5----2.6
Mauritania----5----0.7
Mauritius----11.9----48.4
Mexico----3.1----3.8
Moldova----3.1----24
Mongolia----3.1----93.7
Morocco----3.1----0.9
Mozambique----3.1----50.7
Namibia----3.1----8.1
Nepal----3.1----92.4
Netherlands----9.2----24.3
Netherlands Antilles----9.2----5.1
New Caledonia----9.2----10.1
New Zealand----11.9----24.6
Nicaragua----3.4----3.6
Niger----3.4----9.2
Nigeria----3.4----10.8
Norway----11.5----3.4
Oman----11.5----6.8
Pakistan----11.5----1.5
Panama----6.3----6.8
Papua New Guinea----6.3----4.4
Paraguay----2.3----4.2
Peru----0.9----3.4
Philippines----2.1----3.9
Poland----15.5----4
Portugal----11.7----7.8
Puerto Rico----8.7----3.1
Qatar----8.7----6.7
Reunion----16.7----7.2
Romania----14.1----5.3
Russia----34.3----32.5
Rwanda----34.3----9.3
Saudi Arabia----0.9----2.5
Senegal----0.9----6.6
Serbia and Montenegro----19.3----15.7
Sierra Leone----13.2----42.2
Singapore----9.5----65.7
Slovakia----13.3----15.3
Slovenia----28.1----7.9
Solomon Islands----28.1----3.8
Somalia----28.1----0.2
Somaliland----28.1----0.2
South Africa----28.1----14.7
Spain----8.2----7.6
Sri Lanka----21.6----81.1
Sudan----3.4----12.3
Surinam----3.4----33.5
Swaziland----11.9----11.2
Sweden----13.2----30.7
Switzerland----17.4----10.5
Syria----0.1----2.7
Taiwan----0.1----92.9
Tajikistan----2.6----14.4
Tanzania----2.6----16.1
Thailand----4----89
Togo----4----35.8
Trinidad and Tobago----11.6----28.8
Tunisia----11.6----0.5
Turkey----11.6----2.3
Turkmenistan----8.6----10.1
Uganda----8.6----5.3
Ukraine----23.8----17.7
United Arab Emirates----23.8----10.9
United Kingdom----7----15.1
United States (General)----11----12
Uruguay----10.3----34
Uzbekistan----6.2----21.9
Vanuatu----6.2----4.5
Venezuela----5.1----4.3
Vietnam----5.1----90.2
Western Sahara----5.1----0.4
Yemen----5.1----0.8
Zambia----5.1----13.7
Zimbabwe----7.9----30.6

Any correlation?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10378&d=1205765986

No!

You see DOC, if there was a strong correlation it would have been visible in the rough and ready figures I first used.

For the sake of completeness I accepted your criticism that those figures didn't include the least atheistic countries. It wasn't constructive criticism, you didn't offer better data I could use.

I therefore found off my own bat figures supplied by christians for the number of athests in 183 different countries. I used these. If there were a correlation between turning your back on God and suicide rate I should have expected to see it here.

Now you complain that 0.5% of the USA being Athiests is too low a figure for you to believe. You fail to acknowldge that the data source contains additional information on the Non-religious - a different entity from decided atheists, and also infomration on a variety of other religions, you fail to acknowldge my offer to include the non-religious in the numbers or to offer any constructive ways of treating the data.

I've tried a few different approaches, at the risk of data mining for a correlation. If there was any correlation I'd have expected to see something from one or more of these approaches.

If there were any indication theres was something there to see I'd have performed a regression analyses wieghted with population data and provide a statistical estimate of such correlation happening by chance alone.

As it is unless you can provide other data to help substantiate your claim I can't find any evidence that the suicide rate in Japan is anything to do with "turning their back on God"

In fact I'm not even clear on why you believe such a thing in the first place.

 

[Prometheus]

That is how it works. The writer is choosing the context of his statements.

Hmm. All these years I've been teaching college writing and it seems I had it backwards after all.

No, Jerome. The writer chooses the text, with which he attempts to communicate to the reader. Context includes everything the writer doesn't choose which has an effect on the way his text is interpreted, plus the interactions between different parts of his text.

 

[DOC]

I feel that since we both made this claim, we should provide evidence.

DOC claimed that god punishes countries with increased suicide as they become more secular

However, it seems that this statement is in complete conflict with the actual data.

Well the suicide issue is off topic. I hope no one believes your data just because it looks long and complicated. If people read my posts concerning this topic they will see they are much more concise, and in my opinion have more weight.

 

[Hokulele]

I feel that since we both made this claim, we should provide evidence.

DOC claimed that god punishes countries with increased suicide as they become more secular

However, it seems that this statement is in complete conflict with the actual data.

Lovely evidence joobz. Too bad DOC found Ocelot's post to be too complicated for him. Which is not surprising considering how little he seems to understand science, at least judging by his posts.

Well the suicide issue is off topic. I hope no one believes your data just because it looks long and complicated. If people read my posts concerning this topic they will see they are much more concise, and in my opinion have more weight.

Since I should provide evidence as well, here we can see how well DOC's belief of what constitutes primary sources stacks up against reality.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3413885#post3413885

 

[joobz]

Well the suicide issue is off topic.

Yes, but demonstrating your willingness to post opinions which contradict fact is on topic.

I hope no one believes your data just because it looks long and complicated.

I hope not either. I hope people will read Ocelot's post, evaluate the data sources and determine if his conclusions are accurate or not. That's how evidentiary support works.

I had hoped you would have read it, but I guess that was hoping too much.

If people read my posts concerning this topic they will see they are much more concise, and in my opinion have more weight.

Concise, yes. Accurate, no. Truth carries the most weight.

 

[DOC]

It looks like the Ad hominems are flying again. But I'm glad the Jefferson and the "Troubling beliefs of an influential atheist" threads were referenced. If people would read those cherry picked posts in their context, I'll be satisfied.

 

[Hokulele]

It looks like the Ad hominems are flying again. But I'm glad the Jefferson and the "Troubling beliefs of an influential atheist" threads were referenced. If people would read those cherry picked posts in their context, I'll be satisfied.

Nah, no one will believe those threads, they are too long and complicated.

 

[joobz]

It looks like the Ad hominems are flying again. But I'm glad the Jefferson and the "Troubling beliefs of an influential atheist" threads were referenced. If people would read those cherry picked posts in their context, I'll be satisfied.

DOC, there has been no ad hominem. BTW, you mean personal attacks and not ad hom. And if you wish, I will report my own post to give moderators a chance to evaluate it's appropriateness.

I have called into question your credibility. This is fully appropriate in regard to the argument. You made a claim without supporting evidence, and I presented good reason why people shouldn't take your statements on faith.

BTW, I too hope people will read your "Troubling athiest" thread. They will see that there is a challenge placed on you to critique Ocelot's post and give your reasons why you believe it false. That challenge remains unanswered. As often is the case, you retreat when truth is presented.

It only saddens me that you prefer to reject reality and engage in dishonest debate tactics rather than learn.

 

[wollery]

If some atheists knew that science says all the millions of plant and animal species along with their family and friends all came from the same single cell they might not be so confident in their beliefs.

Belief is what you have when there is no evidence. There are mountains of evidence for evolution, so no need for belief.

It would only be wrong if "all" atheists knew that all plants and animals came from a single cell (according to science) and found the evidence convincing.

Given that your contention, from the start, was that "most" atheists were unaware of this, it would be wrong only if most atheist knew it and found it convincing. Which is the case.

Right now a lot of atheists think "OK we're descendant from the apes" and they stop there because that can be somewhat believable.

The vast majority know that we're descended from single celled organisms, and have no problem accepting that fact.

Why do you think it would be difficult to take the tiny step from accepting that we're evolved from apes to accepting that we're evolved from more primitive life-forms?

I would have to believe the majority of atheists never read Darwin's book "Origin of Species".

I certainly haven't. I don't need to. Evolutionary science has come a long way since that book was written.

When you believe in Darwin's theory and you never read his actual books that is faith.

Nope. I've never read Newton's Principia Mathematica either, but I know that Gravity works. I've never read Kepler's Astronomia Nova, Harmonices Mundi, or Epitome Astronomiae, but I know that the planets orbit the Sun in ellipses. I've never read Copernicus' De revolutionibus orbium coelestium, but I know the Earth isn't the centre of the Universe.

You don't have to read the original work to understand it, when so much subsequent work has been done to confirm its findings.