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What is love?

Personally I believe animals have souls too.
Why do humans love animals which are of no practical use to them whatsoever, and in fact are often a material burden?
I like the way you think Plumjam.

The best answer is they seem to show that they can love back.
Not only that but that they can state it too.
They show emotions in expressions just as we do.

From a practical standpoint, what we call "love" is a collection physical processes of the human body, developed completely naturally through evolutionary processes, and without the need to completely irrational imaginary entities.

Doesn't seem to be just for humans from what I have seen.
If you believe that the sex drive is all there is to love then you are deluded and cold.

Here's something to think about.
Does religion require suffering?
The real question is does suffering require religion.
Suffering needs altruistic love in action by those that are made aware of suffering.
That is the very essence of the propose of life.
 
Um, no. You've got that exactly backwards. That is the argument of an immaterialist. A materialist would know there are other tests we can perform to verify the objective existance of the chair besides just seeing or "experiencing" it...

Seeing as the reply wasn't to you I'll just take your first reply (haven't read the others yet).
You are absolutely wrong on this.
These other tests that you suggest would similarly require translation via the 5 senses, of the results of those tests, to the brain and its chemical reactions.
See the problem now?

These tests would be just another chair.
 
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I personally didn't bother because I found it overly morose. Sometimes love hurts (scars, wounds, and mars) but you ignored all of the good parts of love.

Good parts: The memories one associates with having been in love.
Bad parts: The memories one associates with having been in love.

Love is what you make of it.

If you believe that the sex drive is all there is to love then you are deluded and cold.

Love itself is a delusional response to emotional, instinctive, and intellectual factors.

Does religion require suffering?
The real question is does suffering require religion.

Does love require suffering? No.
Does suffering require love? No.

Suffering needs altruistic love in action by those that are made aware of suffering.

Suffering needs only a debilitating condition that limits one's ability to enjoy life.

That is the very essence of the propose of life.

The only way that life could have a purpose is if someone decided that it be so -- for themselves.
 
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I like the way you think Plumjam.

The best answer is they seem to show that they can love back.
Not only that but that they can state it too.
They show emotions in expressions just as we do.
Thanks Edge. I have enjoyed reading your posts.
Maybe I should start a thread 'Materialists, why do you love your pets?' Might be quite an interesting one ;)
 
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Seeing as the reply wasn't to you I'll just take your first reply (haven't read the others yet).
You are absolutely wrong on this.
These other tests that you suggest would similarly require translation via the 5 senses, of the results of those tests, to the brain and its chemical reactions.
But not my brain, not my chemical reactions. That's the difference, that's objectivity. That's what mysticism, religious experience, conscience, emotions, or the aesthetic/artistic sense all lack. No matter how similar, they won't ever be exactly the same, because the two people percieving it won't ever be the same. We can see the same chair, but one of us may or may not think it is ugly, depending on his experience and education (or lack thereof), the other beautiful. That beautiy is not objective, it is "in the eye of the beholder".

One of us may have been whipped by an abusive father while bent over a similar chair, the other may have kissed their first love in it. Our emotions are our own, unique to us, based on our individual exerience, and not objective.

The chair is real, but these ephemeral things we attach to it- they are all in our heads, created by our brains and chemical reactions.

See the problem now?
Yes, you're hampered by the blinders of preconcieved conclusions.
 
Thanks Edge. I have enjoyed reading your posts.
Maybe I should start a thread 'Materialists, why do you love your pets?' Might be quite an interesting one ;)

Damn sure would be, we might be getting into, well I don't want to say? :)
 
Doesn't seem to be just for humans from what I have seen.
If you believe that the sex drive is all there is to love then you are deluded and cold.

There's a great deal more to it than the sex drive. That, however, does not mean that love is a magic dust manufactured by love fairies in their love fairy dust factory, or whatever your particular supernatural excuse to stop thinking about it is.
 
But not my brain, not my chemical reactions. That's the difference, that's objectivity. That's what mysticism, religious experience, conscience, emotions, or the aesthetic/artistic sense all lack. No matter how similar, they won't ever be exactly the same, because the two people percieving it won't ever be the same.
Hang on.
So, is your argument that via the 5 senses people perceive the objects of their experience the same way?
How about the colour blind, the hard of hearing, those with 20/20 vision, those with perfect pitch, those with pitch-deafness, the visually impaired, the short-sighted, everyone who has to wear glasses, wine experts, perfumiers...etc etc.. etc..
So, being able to perceive these objects of experience only in some impaired manner does not usually translate into any rational argument for the non-existence of said objects.

We can see the same chair, but one of us may or may not think it is ugly, depending on his experience and education (or lack thereof), the other beautiful. That beautiy is not objective, it is "in the eye of the beholder".
Wrong again. Just as some people have impaired vision, some people have an impaired aesthetic sense. Think Britney Spears fans.
The logical consequence of your position is that there is no real objective difference, in terms of musical aesthetic beauty, between an organg utan playing the bagpipes and a Mozart piano concerto.
Which would be absolutely absurd, and yeah, irrational.

One of us may have been whipped by an abusive father while bent over a similar chair, the other may have kissed their first love in it. Our emotions are our own, unique to us, based on our individual exerience, and not objective.
So would your argument be that the average person is equally likely to react emotionally positively to being beaten by their father as they would to kissing their first love?
After all, if emotions are not referring to any objective emotional reality, then you'd reasonably expect people not in any significant way to react better to a beating than a loving kiss.
Which would be more absurdity.


The chair is real, but these ephemeral things we attach to it- they are all in our heads, created by our brains and chemical reactions.
The visual experience of the chair is in your head too. Maybe you have good eyesight and see it clearly. The aesthetic experience of the chair is in your head too. Maybe you have a well-developed aesthetic sense and can gauge its level of beauty better than the average person can.
That doesn't mean either the chair or the chair's beauty are unreal.


Yes, you're hampered by the blinders of preconcieved conclusions.
Perhaps we should be discussing mirrors instead of chairs.
 
Because I enjoy the complex neurological reactions engendered by the stimulus they provide.

And they aren't noisy, like those mashugga dogs next door.

This might seem facetious, but bear with me.
If all you are after in life is complex neurological reactions that presumably engender an experience of pleasure, then you would have no objection to the perfect society being one in which everyone was constantly out of their heads on crack cocaine, so long as this did not reduce their lifespans.
Am I right?
 
Because I enjoy the complex neurological reactions engendered by the stimulus they provide.

Agreed.

This is my take on plumjam, edge, and all the other materialist h8ers: They are needlessly afraid of the implications of materialism.

Why be afraid? Let us assume materialism is true, just as an exercise. Do you feel any different? Do you look at the world any differently? Do you experience emotion any differently? Absolutely not -- you go about your life just like you always did.

If materialism is true, then clearly there are emergent properties of material that lead to the beings we are. It wouldn't mean that all of a sudden all human emotion means nothing, it just means that our emotions, which we all agree are very real and very important, come from another source. So what is there to be afraid of?

I think that love is just neurological activity, nothing more. Yet, I enjoy the feeling as much as anyone. Why can't I enjoy neurological activity, plumjam and edge? Why is neurological activity somehow less "right" than magical juju?
 
This might seem facetious, but bear with me.
If all you are after in life is complex neurological reactions that presumably engender an experience of pleasure, then you would have no objection to the perfect society being one in which everyone was constantly out of their heads on crack cocaine, so long as this did not reduce their lifespans.
Am I right?

If you object to such a society, why?
 
Fnord says,

The only way that life could have a purpose is if someone decided that it be so -- for themselves.
Why where you born? Now what do you do in this world, do you do the best you can, lets say at work, does it affect others in a positive way or negative way, are you kind?
We all have a propose, whether you see it or not, we are all connected.

Do you love your mother and would you take care of her if she was immobile and bed ridden?
Would you do it for money or out of love?
Or would you do it at all? This is one type of situation is where you learn altruistic love.

Unselfish love is not something that pleases you chemically.
 
I'm implementing crefews on all my pets, as of today they are not allowed out after dark well except the cats.
 

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