WTC7 Revisited

[DGM]

Gregory:
I know you were going to rethink (after reading R Mackey's posts) some of your calculations on this subject. I guess this is a bump to continue what I think is an interesting line of study.
Any thoughts? (ignoring the distractions and focusing on the op)

ETA This is not an attempt to call you out. I'm truly interested in your calculations.

 

[GregoryUrich]

Thanks for the info, Norseman, quoted below'



The 2 photos in question are reproduced below

[qimg]http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_old/Photo_archives/wtc_7/copyofsw11th7.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_old/Photo_archives/wtc_7/wtc7_damage.jpg[/qimg]

The close-up and cropped comparison is once again shown below

[qimg]http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_old/Photo_archives/wtc_7/wtc7cornercomp2ahireswx4.jpg[/qimg]

The Zafar and NIST-NYPD photos cannot possibly both be real.

As Norseman pointed out, this was discussed in great detail by Christopher7 around here

The counter-arguments given be Norseman and Dave Rogers, among others, were basically that the difference in the 2 photos is merely an optical illusion created by light refraction produced by the extreme heat. In other words, you can't beleive your eyes.

This is absurd (not the people but the counter-arguments).

Since this was discussed elsewhere, I wouldn't want this thread to be dominated by this discussion. I just want to point out to Gregory that NIST and is implanting a falsified photo (with a New York Police Dept stamp) into their report to exaggerate the damage to WTC 7.

This is serious in itself and something you should keep in mind.

As with Christopher7, Dave Rogers may insist that this is indeed the effects of light refraction and tell us to simply read a physics textbook on optics. I have a couple of degrees in physics myself, and you don't need to do that in order to understand that there is NO WAY IN HELL that the difference is attributable to refraction of light within the heated atmosphere around the building.

Light refraction?! That's the skeptic equivalent of DEWs. However, I would be more inclined to believe that NIST was fed bogus photos and didn't question them. I think it would be meaningful to ask NIST to explain the discrepancy.

 

[GregoryUrich]

Gregory:
I know you were going to rethink (after reading R Mackey's posts) some of your calculations on this subject. I guess this is a bump to continue what I think is an interesting line of study.
Any thoughts? (ignoring the distractions and focusing on the op)

ETA This is not an attempt to call you out. I'm truly interested in your calculations.

I'm going to be traveling this a week, so I won't get a chance to do anything until next week.

 

[hamelekim]

What? You have zero idea how strong the building is at 5 pm after burning all day. The building was on fire all day and that fire was not fought. You will have zero ability to apply any steel strength at the time WTC7 fails to stand due to fire and damage. There is no survival for buildings that burn and are not fought like WTC7. Please present a building, and office building that burned all day and did not have structural failure. Have you even researched WTC7; I have to say no, since your posts reflect no insight into anything about WTC7.

Your Quixotic attack lacks a knowledge of structures, and you seem to lack any experience on anything about 9/11 until you are guided by people here at JREF. Each time you come up with a new thesis, the work is done by JREF by critiquing you to correctness. Just look back to each of your projects and attempt to support 9/11 truth's lies and false information.

The more you post the more it becomes clear you lack knowledge on 9/11 issues until people, even lay people, guide your research and correct your errors. Between your brief successes at understanding, you display total lack of knowledge (you even mention PNAC, a true flag for someone who lacks fundamental knowledge on 9/11) on each new endeavor to save the 9/11 truth movement form total implosion which actually occurred 6 years ago, pre-debunked on 9/11. Does anyone in 9/11 truth study 9/11 before making all the false statements and made up theories that lack evidence?

Please study WTC7 before you post more junk and have to learn on the post, so your veiled scientific approach resembles an attempt by the engineer you claim to be. If you do not study first, you will do more damage to the prestige of being called an Electrical Engineer; you need to be more supportive of our shared degree and at least appear more knowledgeable on WTC7 even though your conclusion is wrong before you started (yes, everyone knows you have signed the petition of 9/11 truth before having real evidence, the best you can do is mention PNAC, to support the hearsay conclusion of 9/11 truth; so, yes your conclusion is known even if you want to hide behind your shallow research, as if you are really trying to find the truth, which 9/11 TM has never even got close to doing).

I can't wait to see if you think it was silent RDX, or thermite. Please study first so you look better than the no plane guys, and beam weapon dustification experts.

When has there ever been a fire in a tall building that ever caused it to fall? What building has fallen down, from structural damage, in a way that looks exactly like it was controlled demolition?

How weak would the steel be in a building like that, on the floors where the fire was? I'm sorry but the argument is so bloody weak for structural damage bringing the building down.

You also have, on tape, records of warning from officials that the building was being brought down. Why would they say it was being brough down, or know it was coming down at that moment? Why would they even consider that idea when it has never happened in the history of tall buildings.

The heat from those fires would never get hot enough to weaken the structural steel enough to bring them down. The same goes for the WTC buildings. The heat required to make then red hot, wasn't even reached, even then they would be strong enough to hold the building up.

I don't honestly understand why some people completely dismiss the idea that their government could do such an act.

Considering what is going on in the US today, it's well on the way to a fascist state.

 

[LashL]

However, I would be more inclined to believe that NIST was fed bogus photos and didn't question them. I think it would be meaningful to ask NIST to explain the discrepancy.

So, you are "more inclined to believe that NIST was fed bogus photos" but you haven't done a damned thing to refute those photos except regurgitate tinhat nonsense found and repeated on the Internet. Why not?

And you "think it would be meaningful to ask NIST to explain the discrepancy " (what discrepancy?) but you haven't actually made any such inquiries of NIST. Why not?

What's stopping you?

 

[Walter Ego]

Is it fascism yet?

I don't honestly understand why some people completely dismiss the idea that their government could do such an act.

Considering what is going on in the US today, it's well on the way to a fascist state.

The very fact that the 9-11 Truth movement exist proves that America (or should I say Amerika?) is not yet a fascist state. The left has been saying fascism is just around the corner for the last 40+ years and it hasn't arrived yet. Wake me up when it gets here.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

The very fact that the 9-11 Truth movement exist proves that America (or should I say Amerika?) is not yet a fascist state. The left has been saying fascism is just around the corner for the last 40+ years and it hasn't arrived yet. Wake me up when it gets here.

Agreed. Screaming fascism is like invoking Orwell for everything. It may sound cool to people who don't understand either, but it makes both into nothing more than a joke that will get ignored.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

The Zafar and NIST-NYPD photos cannot possibly both be real.

Okay I just have to ask. How do you know there not real? You see photo fakery leaves signs, no matter how good you are at it. So the real question is to show how the photo is fake. Where are the cloned repetitions, where are the out of place shadows, where are the signs of digital fakery?

 

[hamelekim]

The very fact that the 9-11 Truth movement exist proves that America (or should I say Amerika?) is not yet a fascist state. The left has been saying fascism is just around the corner for the last 40+ years and it hasn't arrived yet. Wake me up when it gets here.

Are you really this ignorant?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

If you dismiss this then you are completely brainwashed. You don't honestly think that the government is making you safer by tracking every single individual, do you? Do you research waht they have planned in the future? What they want to put in place?

They want to track every single person, your vehicle, your body, what you buy, what you read, the list goes on. They treat you as the enemy. I just can't believe that you don't see this happening. It's like you're living in a fantasy world where governments always do what's best for the people. Democracy is rare in the history of humanity. It's always been rule by the elite, and once they gain power they do not easily give it up.

I can guarantee that you will se an attack in the next 5 years on a US city, likely with a nuclear weapon, dirty bomb, or biological attack. Whatever president is governing at that time will use the powers Bush has gained for the president to take complete control of the country and remove everyones sovereignty in the name of protecting the epople.

In fact, I wouldn't doubt that it happens before the elections this fall, and that those elections are suspended, possibly indefinitely, and a war begins with Iran, which will be blamed for the attack.

You don't see that people are being conditioned to accept all of these eventual changes gradually? It's obvious to anyone who knows history and knows what the neocons want. Read the New American Century, read about the neo conservatives and their ideas. Realize that the US government has known about attacks on the US in the past and ignored them, to get the people angry enough to justify military actions. Realize that they have planned attacks on American people in the past, but sane people overturned the ideas.

You cannot always count on sane people to be in charge. It's a well known fact that the neo conservatives in power were known as the crazies back in the 80's. They were called crazy for a good reason. They are fundamentalist in their beliefs and their beliefs are based on false premises that consistantly are proven wrong through the failure of their actions.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Are you really this ignorant?....

....You cannot always count on sane people to be in charge. It's a well known fact that the neo conservatives in power were known as the crazies back in the 80's. They were called crazy for a good reason. They are fundamentalist in their beliefs and their beliefs are based on false premises that consistantly are proven wrong through the failure of their actions.

Okay. Were do I begin? "They". The mysterious "they" is never a good way to go about your argument. I can also tell that someone is an Alex Jone's fan. The good news is they will never be able to track all the things you listed. I have read the same things you have, and much of it is exaggerated from its original source.

Yeah government is bad. Congrats on coming to the conclusion of many others through the years. Democracy is rare, which why we don't have one.

Democracy is also really, really bad.

Elites. People with power will always run things, because even in a Republic most people will never seek to attain it. Elites in most societies are just those people who actually seek to run things.

I can guarantee that you will se an attack in the next 5 years on a US city, likely with a nuclear weapon, dirty bomb, or biological attack.

1. I can guarantee a traffic accident in the next 5 hours. 2. Truthers have been saying this ever since 9-11, 3. Even if it does happen that wouldn't mean the government did it.

In fact, I wouldn't doubt that it happens before the elections this fall, and that those elections are suspended, possibly indefinitely, and a war begins with Iran, which will be blamed for the attack.

Alex Jones has been saying that about every election. The exact statement you make has been repeated since 2004. Still the same cabal that pulled off the worlds most perfect conspiracy have failed to flex this power for total control.

The rest dude is like a verbatim rant from Terrorstorm. Also Northwoods is so misrepresented. It was never a "plan" in the since truthers claim it was. It was a proposal that got someone immediately fired.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Light refraction?! That's the skeptic equivalent of DEWs. However, I would be more inclined to believe that NIST was fed bogus photos and didn't question them. I think it would be meaningful to ask NIST to explain the discrepancy.

There are aspects of the differences that look like refraction, specifically the wavy appearance of some of the features of the processed photo that was originally posted a long time ago. There are other aspects that appear to be due to the very different viewing angles. One shot is taken from behind the damaged corner at a glancing angle, so any structure behind the missing parts will be obscured, whereas the other is taken from a viewpoint aimed directly at the corner, and parts of the structure behind the missing parts are visible and tend to fill in areas that look like holes in the first. Overall, I'm not convinced either way as to whether one of the photos has been altered. Given the overwhelming preponderance of evidence against the conspiracy theories I'm not too concerned, but if the USA chooses to waste its money on the new investigation the truthers claim to want then I'm sure that detailed analysis of these photographs would be a suitably pointless way to go about it.

Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

I can guarantee that you will se an attack in the next 5 years on a US city, likely with a nuclear weapon, dirty bomb, or biological attack. Whatever president is governing at that time will use the powers Bush has gained for the president to take complete control of the country and remove everyones sovereignty in the name of protecting the epople.

In fact, I wouldn't doubt that it happens before the elections this fall, and that those elections are suspended, possibly indefinitely, and a war begins with Iran, which will be blamed for the attack.

If all that doesn't happen, will you be happy to come back here and admit you were wrong?

Dave

 

[aggle-rithm]

They want to track every single person, your vehicle, your body, what you buy, what you read, the list goes on. They treat you as the enemy. I just can't believe that you don't see this happening. It's like you're living in a fantasy world where governments always do what's best for the people.

This worries me, until I remember that the contract for tracking every single person, vehicle, purchase, etc., will go to the lowest bidder. Then, more than likely, the whole thing will be subcontracted to India. Language barriers will prevent any meaningful information from being shared with the government. In a few years, the whole stinking mess will be declared a failure and its budgeting cut.

Hey, I can speculate, too. Except my speculations are based somewhat on reality.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

This worries me, until I remember that the contract for tracking every single person, vehicle, purchase, etc., will go to the lowest bidder. Then, more than likely, the whole thing will be subcontracted to India. Language barriers will prevent any meaningful information from being shared with the government. In a few years, the whole stinking mess will be declared a failure and its budgeting cut.

Hey, I can speculate, too. Except my speculations are based somewhat on reality.

Ha. It is true! What gets to me is that I am concerned about civil liberties, but pretending that all this is going to be one massive system doesn't help my own case about it being wrong. It will be like everything else in government when it comes to taxes and motor vehicles, completely screwed and poorly managed.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Ha. It is true! What gets to me is that I am concerned about civil liberties, but pretending that all this is going to be one massive system doesn't help my own case about it being wrong. It will be like everything else in government when it comes to taxes and motor vehicles, completely screwed and poorly managed.

I write systems that do exactly the sort of tracking that hamelekim is talking about, but of course, not on the scale he's talking about.

I can guarantee that, if the government were really working on such a system, it would be by far the largest engineering project in human history. There would have to be thousands upon thousands of people working on it, and it would be virtually impossible to keep it secret.

I don't think I have to mention that the government has a very poor track record of implementing projects like this...the overhaul of the Air Traffic Control system took many years and many millions of dollars and was a complete failure.

 

[chillzero]

This isn't a thread about civil liberties - start a new thread for that, and stay on topic here please.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[Major_Tom]

Light refraction?! That's the skeptic equivalent of DEWs. However, I would be more inclined to believe that NIST was fed bogus photos and didn't question them. I think it would be meaningful to ask NIST to explain the discrepancy.

That's what I assumed also.

But the photo is stamped "New York Police Department" and was taken by helecopter.


Do you see the implications? This isn't just an honest mistake. NYPD?

 

[fullflavormenthol]

That's what I assumed also.

But the photo is stamped "New York Police Department" and was taken by helecopter.


Do you see the implications? This isn't just an honest mistake. NYPD?

Where is the evidence that NYPD photo has been faked? I asked before, and I would like to get an answer. That is a big acquisition, and I don't think you have made your case.

 

[uk_dave]

Where is the evidence that NYPD photo has been faked? I asked before, and I would like to get an answer. That is a big acquisition, and I don't think you have made your case.

'Truthers' seem to think that the dark patches are being used as evidence of severe structural damage, whereas, in fact, they are just areas of dark smoke which obscure parts of the building and which appear in both photographs.

 

[SDC]

That's what I assumed also.

But the photo is stamped "New York Police Department" and was taken by helecopter.


Do you see the implications? This isn't just an honest mistake. NYPD?

Let me put this as a question. Are you stating that the fact that the photo was, evidently, taken by the NYPD, means necessarily that it was faked? Or are you implying that?