Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?

The reality is that all ideas about morality are absolute... absolutely subjective. Whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Wiccan, Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, or Rastafarian, your "morality" is nothing more or less than whatever you decide it should be. When people pretend that allegiance to a make-believe being is a link to a "higher authority", they are lying, either to us, to themselves, or both.

Bigots like Stone Island will claim that because Atheists cannot appeal to he Christian deity to justify their citizenship, somehow that citizenship is invalid. The reality is that Christian belief is no guarantee of good citizenship, and atheism is nothing that prevents good citizenship.
 
Call me an Aristotelian, but I would think the best person is one who does the right thing, in the right way, for the right reason. Someone could follow the law slavishly for a number of bad reasons, including fear of punishment, hope of reward, or completely arbitrarily. That's why knowledge is justified, true belief.

And, of course, doing the right thing because it's good for humanity, the community, and society at large is not the "right" reason. The "right" reason is because god told you to.

Can you really not see how asinine that is?
 
And, of course, doing the right thing because it's good for humanity, the community, and society at large is not the "right" reason. The "right" reason is because god told you to.

Can you really not see how asinine that is?

No, he can't.

He can't see how his standards apply to Christians more than Atheists, since Christians believe in a deity who will punish them if they don't believe, and reward them if they do.
 
Robin,

According to whom?

No coherent account? Go to the library. Start with John Locke. Work your way up from there.

Call me an Aristotelian, but I would think the best person is one who does the right thing, in the right way, for the right reason. Someone could follow the law slavishly for a number of bad reasons, including fear of punishment, hope of reward, or completely arbitrarily. That's why knowledge is justified, true belief.
Appeal to authorities. I suggest developing YOUR argument and defend it.

In the process, I challenge you to actually critique my argument.
 
And, of course, doing the right thing because it's good for humanity, the community, and society at large is not the "right" reason. The "right" reason is because god told you to.

Can you really not see how asinine that is?

Who gets to decide what "good" means? Whose standard of good? I mean, it's possible to defend utilitarianism, but don't make it more simplistic than it is.

In any case, is an appeal to God or the Bible really my argument? Is it even really Neuhaus's argument? Forgive me, but I don't remember writing that.
 
Appeal to authorities. I suggest developing YOUR argument and defend it.

No appeal to authorities. If you're going to say there is no coherent argument for natural law, make damn sure you know some arguments for natural law. You may disagree with Locke, but it's just stupid to be dismissive.
 
The reality is that all ideas about morality are absolute... absolutely subjective. Whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Wiccan, Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, or Rastafarian, your "morality" is nothing more or less than whatever you decide it should be. When people pretend that allegiance to a make-believe being is a link to a "higher authority", they are lying, either to us, to themselves, or both.

Bigots like Stone Island will claim that because Atheists cannot appeal to he Christian deity to justify their citizenship, somehow that citizenship is invalid. The reality is that Christian belief is no guarantee of good citizenship, and atheism is nothing that prevents good citizenship.

So, is there any non-arbitrary, justified, and true reason not to hang atheists from trees until they're dead? I think that you should be ready to accept the implications of nihilism (there are no non-arbitrary reasons to do or not do anything).
 
So, is there any non-arbitrary, justified, and true reason not to hang atheists from trees until they're dead? I think that you should be ready to accept the implications of nihilism (there are no non-arbitrary reasons to do or not do anything).

Every justification for every action is arbitrary, including the actions of Christians. You, for instance, don't seem to mind presenting dishonest arguments that you believe justify your hate of and bigotry towards Atheists. That is an arbitrary decision on your part, isn't it? Unless, of course, you are willing to claim that Jesus approves of your lying?

I'm no nihilist, and your implication that I am is yet another dishonest statement on your part. The fact that you insist on lying so much is a strike against your position.
 
Last edited:
Robin,

According to whom?
Which claim are you asking about? That good citizenship is about practice rather than theory? That most people are not familiar with the term "natural law" in the sense you are using it? Or that good citizenship does not depend upon acceptance of the term you are unable to define?
No coherent account? Go to the library. Start with John Locke. Work your way up from there.
That's what I like. Nice tight, specific, targetted citing. I have read all of John Locke's work and my libary contains over 2 million titles.

Care to be a little more specific?
Call me an Aristotelian, but I would think the best person is one who does the right thing, in the right way, for the right reason. Someone could follow the law slavishly for a number of bad reasons, including fear of punishment, hope of reward, or completely arbitrarily.
You could follow the law arbitrarily or slavishly but you could not do both at the same time. But good citizenship consists of more than just following the law. It might be big actions like risking your own life to help someone in trouble. Or it could be many little things like observing the minor courtesies of life to ensure that you leave each situation just a little more calm and peaceful than when you entered it.
That's why knowledge is justified, true belief.
I am not sure what you even mean by that, never mind how it follows from the previous statement. Knowledge of what? True belief about what? Are you saying that someone can be a good citizen purely on the claim to be accountable to some vaguely specified higher order?
 
No appeal to authorities. If you're going to say there is no coherent argument for natural law, make damn sure you know some arguments for natural law. You may disagree with Locke, but it's just stupid to be dismissive.
You have offered no defense for your position outside of quoting and refering to other people. This is appealing to authority. It's sometimes justified, but in this case it isn't. Especially when the premises of the arugment have been directly challegened. For starters, you've never addressed this:


joobz said:
Here, we come to the exact point of how Neuhaus and Stone Island have attempted to redefine citizen to be equivilent to chistian, or better yet require being christian to be a citizen.

As everyone here has implicitly understood (even Radrook's post pages back agreed), citizenry is defined by a person's actions within a society. If they conform to that society's will, they are a good citizen. That doesn't mean the society is good. This seems to be what Neuhaus found detestable. As such, he wished to redefine good citizen to mean a person who will function in the best interests of all based upon some external code (regardless if the society adopts to that same code).

Now, the trouble is what external code do we adopt and why? For convienience, natural law and god is invoked in some shear horror show of circular reasoning. During the argument, it is claimed that this code must come from god becuase it exists and that since the code exists god must be real. Along the way, by defining citizen in terms of what a person believes, Neuhaus gets to claim that atheists are excluded from the good citizen club.

If allowed to continue, there is no reason for Neuhaus to stop at excluding atheists. By changing the standard of good citizen from from Belief in natural laws to belief in christian natural laws, we could start to exclude Jews, muslims, hindus, Buddhists,... from being good citizens. Afterall, if we assume that these axiomatic laws must have a generic divine origin (one with no proof to exist), why couldn't it have a specific divine origin (one that equally has no proof).

Stone Island and Neuhaus continually beg the question, why does this code equal the one true code. The answer is, it doesn't. There is no "one true code". It's merely an axiomatic set of standards which were used to establish the society we currently live in. These axiomatic standards work, mainly becuase empirical observation of other sets of axioms were found wanting.(theocracies, monarchies, oligarchies, ..) This doesn't mean that our current system is the one true system, but the best we've come to. Indeed, the primary principle that the USA was built upon was the notion that this system might not be the best, so they built in corrective algorithm to allow the government to adapt to changing needs. Even within the history of the US, the definition of a good citizen (formerly a white male who could own slaves and viewed women as secondary unworthy of voting rights) has changed.

There is no standard set of beliefs one must have to be a good citizen. There are standards of beliefs one must be to be a good theist. Neuhaus and stone island equate these concepts, and in so doing demonstrate a naive prejudice that must be exposed openly to prevent it from ever fostering. Our society operates on the principle of free speech. As such, I expose these prejudices and am a good citizen for doing so.

You are at the point where you must either deficate or get off the pot.
 
Just to give an idea of what I am talking about, here is the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on Natural Law:

Even though we have already confined ‘natural law theory’ to its use as a term that marks off a certain class of ethical theories, we still have a confusing variety of meanings to contend with. Some writers use the term with such a broad meaning that any moral theory that is a version of moral realism — that is, any moral theory that holds that some positive moral claims are literally true (for this conception of moral realism, see Sayre-McCord 1988)— counts as a natural law view. Some use it so narrowly that no moral theory that is not grounded in a very specific form of Aristotelian teleology could count as a natural law view.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/natural-law-ethics/

Now if good citizenship really does depend on a compelling account of civic obligation based on the above concept then I would say that good citizens must be as rare as hens' teeth.
 
It's a problem. We come here, we argue, but more often it seems we argue the case not of our own experience or knowledge, but that of whatever author/philosopher/whatever has happened to capture our imagination most recently.

I would like to see more arguments from personal experience, from the hard yards endured, even if not elegantly managed. Remember, if you've read the book, chances are I have read the same or a similar book.

Just a thought.

M.
 
No appeal to authorities. If you're going to say there is no coherent argument for natural law, make damn sure you know some arguments for natural law. You may disagree with Locke, but it's just stupid to be dismissive.
I know the arguments for natural law thank you very much. I was asking for a coherent one.

Locke, for the most part, does not try to define or justify natural law, merely assumes that it exists. He has an unpublished work on natural law but it is not very clear even what he means by it.

I have already covered C.S. Lewis's two forays into this subject in this forum. Whereas Locke appeared to think that Natural Law was discoverable by reason Lewis claimed it as the most important feature of Natural Law that it wasn't discoverable by reason.

For a start we now have a big obstacle to the idea that an understanding and acceptance of this concept is a requirement for good citizenship.

And you have already insisted that religious language is meaningless, so surely you must be arguing that Locke's and Lewis's account of Natural Law (which are both couched in religious concepts) are meaningless.

So can you point me to a single meaningful account of what natural law means?

What proportion of citizens of the United States of America could, if they were asked, give an absolute answer to this philosophic controversy?
 
Every justification for every action is arbitrary, including the actions of Christians. You, for instance, don't seem to mind presenting dishonest arguments that you believe justify your hate of and bigotry towards Atheists. That is an arbitrary decision on your part, isn't it? Unless, of course, you are willing to claim that Jesus approves of your lying?

I'm no nihilist, and your implication that I am is yet another dishonest statement on your part. The fact that you insist on lying so much is a strike against your position.

Ask yourself, what assumptions are you making in this post? Are those assumptions justified? Why?
 
Further to the above, presumably Stone Island must be insisting that in order to be a good citizen one must be able to understand and critique the position of legal positivism - must be able to refute Bentham and Wendell Holmes when they argue that the concept of Natural Law is nonsense.

And they must surely also be able to understand and refute the arguments of the likes of WVQ Quine ("On the Nature of Moral Values 1978") and Jeremy Waldron ("Law and Disagreement" 1998 p164) when they point out the irrelevance of the existence or otherwise of a Natural Moral Law.

That is a pretty tall order for good citizenship, Stone!

One thing is certain though, you could never be a good citizen according to Mr Neuhaus' pronouncements, since you can't even bring yourself to come to even an interim conclusion on the subject, nevermind believe it.
 
C.S. Lewis is a dolt.

You know what he says is the worse sin of all?-- Murder?--nah-- he's all for war. Pedophilia? nah... never even mentions it. Rape?-- nope Bigotry? nope Beer? getting closer-- the biggest sin according to the self important C.S. Lewis is PRIDE. Yep. He read the bible and determined this with his super duper reasoning or natural law or something.

And this is a guy that a lot of Christians seem to admire and find a role model in.
 
C.S. Lewis is a dolt.

You know what he says is the worse sin of all?-- Murder?--nah-- he's all for war. Pedophilia? nah... never even mentions it. Rape?-- nope Bigotry? nope Beer? getting closer-- the biggest sin according to the self important C.S. Lewis is PRIDE. Yep. He read the bible and determined this with his super duper reasoning or natural law or something.
Ironically, in chapter 2 of "Abolition of Man" he also identifies pride as one of the greatest virtues and suggests that people who don't recognise this are causing the destruction of society.

So Pride is the worst sin and also the greatest virtue and he hates the idea of moral relativism.

Yep, this natural law idea is really well thought out.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom