Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?

Stone Island said:
Well, no, not really. This is where, I think, Neuhaus and I differ. I'm trying to show you that on the grounds that you use to reject belief in God or gods (maybe even fairly!), you will also be forced to reject natural law as the Founders understood it. (Assuming consistency plays any part in your thinking.)

Some have said they're fine with that.

Some of you haven't quite seen it yet.

None of you have acknowledged the consequences of such thinking.
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So hang on, can *I* be a good citizen? Since I'm not in the US, I surely don't have to follow whatever the founders thought, right?
 
Stone Island is still harping on the old tune he started back in "How Many Nonbelievers?" Then, as now, he doesn't seem to realize that there are nations, and people, beyond the United States.
 
thaiboxerken said:
I can imagine Stone Island on a date. The woman asks "so what did you think of the steak?"

"Well, according to Neuhaus....."

"But what did YOU think of the steak?"

"Iron Chef Morimoto says that....."

"WAS THE STEAK GOOD?!"

"If you look on the menu, it says that it's the best steak in town."
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"WAS. THE. STEAK. GOOD?!"

"Thrasymachus:"

"Check, please!"
 
MarkCorrigan said:
So hang on, can *I* be a good citizen? Since I'm not in the US, I surely don't have to follow whatever the founders thought, right?
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That's actually an interesting question. Do you believe in the principles expressed in the Magna Carta? Do you believe the Queen is ordained by the God of the Church of England to be the head of state? Most importantly, do you like tea?
 
godless dave said:
That's actually an interesting question. Do you believe in the principles expressed in the Magna Carta? Do you believe the Queen is ordained by the God of the Church of England to be the head of state? Most importantly, do you like tea?
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Kind of, not in the least, yes.

Well, can I be a good citizen? After all, as Stone knows, you have to rely on others to tell you what a good citizen is.

Incidentally, if relying on the constitution of a nation is what makes you a good citizen, there are no good citizens in the UK, because the British constitution (yes, there is one, it's not one document, nor is it entirely codified, but if there wasn't one there would be no government legitimacy) does not have the Prime Minister as having any special powers, nor are they the executive wing of the government. However they are treated as such.
 
Well I'm going to continue to rely on myself to figure it out, thank you. However, if any of you wants to ask me, as an "other" in that case, I'll be happy to tell you.

Edited to add, god beliefs are definitely not required.
 
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Of course I think I'm a fairly good citizen. I try to take an active part in the politics of the country, and I study it so I can get more involved. I have no criminal record, nor have I done anything that would get me one if caught and I don't condone treason. I complain about what I don't agree with in my nation and I see what can be done to change it.

All in all, I'd say I was a fairly good citizen.
 
I think humanists make some of the very best citizens on planet earth.

The best citizens don't seem to let bigots define citizenship for them or anyone else. They let those whom they consider "good citizens" serve as role models while using the bigots as examples of how NOT to be.
 
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MarkCorrigan said:
Of course I think I'm a fairly good citizen. I try to take an active part in the politics of the country, and I study it so I can get more involved. I have no criminal record, nor have I done anything that would get me one if caught and I don't condone treason. I complain about what I don't agree with in my nation and I see what can be done to change it.

All in all, I'd say I was a fairly good citizen.
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Yeah, but can you justify why you do all that?
;)
 
godless dave said:
Yeah, but can you justify why you do all that?
;)
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(I know it was rhetorical, but to hammer the point home to those who won't get it)

Yes. I do it because I know that even though I have no absolute need to, it's how I want my society ran. I gain the core ideas from societal ideals and I bring to that a mix of things I've learnt from people and stuff I believe because of what I've seen and read about. Using all this and also the golden rule, I create a personal moral code that some people might not accept all of, but that I do.
 
But, if you aren't doing it for "heaven bonus points" or fear of eternal damnation-- then it doesn't count (to Stone Island and his personal savior, Neuhaus anyhow).
 
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articulett said:
But, if you aren't doing it for "heaven bonus points" or fear of eternal damnation-- then it doesn't count (to Stone Island and his personal savior, Neuhaus anyhow).
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It always terrifies me when people say they act like a responsible person and don't commit crimes "because god said it's bad".

The implication is...disturbing.
 
Yes--

In case it's true, we better encourage them to keep believing. They may truly have an infantile morality based on fear and promised rewards from an invisible man.
 
Stone Island said:
So, if an atheist couldn't be a good Christian on the basis of her lack in a belief in the ultimate reality of Christianity's truth, how can someone be a good citizen if they lack a belief in the ultimate reality and truth of natural law?
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Because good citizenship does not, never has and never will depend upon belief in the truth of natural law. I doubt that even 5% of US citizens would know the expression or be able to tell you what it refers to.

I doubt anybody could give you a coherent account of what it means. I certainly have never heard one.

So who is the better citizen. Someone who can spin a fancy sermon about how they should theoretically be a good citizen? Or someone who just shuts up and gets along with the business of good citizenship?
 
Robin said:
Because good citizenship does not, never has and never will depend upon belief in the truth of natural law. I doubt that even 5% of US citizens would know the expression or be able to tell you what it refers to.

I doubt anybody could give you a coherent account of what it means. I certainly have never heard one.

So who is the better citizen. Someone who can spin a fancy sermon about how they should theoretically be a good citizen? Or someone who just shuts up and gets along with the business of good citizenship?
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Robin,

According to whom?

No coherent account? Go to the library. Start with John Locke. Work your way up from there.

Call me an Aristotelian, but I would think the best person is one who does the right thing, in the right way, for the right reason. Someone could follow the law slavishly for a number of bad reasons, including fear of punishment, hope of reward, or completely arbitrarily. That's why knowledge is justified, true belief.
 
Stone Island said:
Someone could follow the law slavishly for a number of bad reasons, including fear of punishment, hope of reward, or completely arbitrarily.
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You mean the way Christians follow their mythology? So, being a Christian is no guarantee either, which makes your position even more stupid than it was before your most recent posts.

Your position IS stupid, and the more you defend it, the more ways it is shown to be stupid.
 
Stone Island said:
Robin,

According to whom?

No coherent account? Go to the library. Start with John Locke. Work your way up from there.

Call me an Aristotelian, but I would think the best person is one who does the right thing, in the right way, for the right reason. Someone could follow the law slavishly for a number of bad reasons, including fear of punishment, hope of reward, or completely arbitrarily. That's why knowledge is justified, true belief.
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No, don't start with Locke, because, to be blunt, he was a tit.

He was a very intelligent tit, but trust me, he was still a tit. His ideas hold some water, but in order to swallow them all you have to buy into the idea that atheists are sub-human. In fact anyone who isn't a Christian is sub human, but he REALLY hates atheists. His ideas about society are good, his ideas about morality are not.
 
Stone Island said:
Robin,

According to whom?

No coherent account? Go to the library. Start with John Locke. Work your way up from there.

Call me an Aristotelian, but I would think the best person is one who does the right thing, in the right way, for the right reason. Someone could follow the law slavishly for a number of bad reasons, including fear of punishment, hope of reward, or completely arbitrarily. That's why knowledge is justified, true belief.
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I have yet to see you justify your belief that lack of belief in gods is unjustified.
 
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