9/11 FDNY involvement

[defaultdotxbe]

On reflection, I can think of two scenarios for an inside job without FDNY knowledge.

The first is the LIHOP scenario and the second is any MIHOP scenario which involves no obvious tampering with the buildings prior to or after the plane crashes and no obvious tampering with the planes.

It seems to me that other theories imply FDNY involvment but I am willing to be corrected.

yeah, but unfortunately (for truthers) controlled demolition is about the only thing the large majority of them agree on

 

[gtc]

That's true, but I was assuming we were talking about the flavors of conspiracy theories that involve bringing down the three buildings with explosives or thermite, space beams, or anything else that wasn't the "official story."

I am also assuming that; but it seems pretty clear to me that these are the only options for an inside job that doesn't include the FDNY.

We will see.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

But, this entire issue rests on the assumption that firefighters would have known beyong a reasonable doubt that bombs were in the building. And then it also rests on the assumption that said firefighters would make public statements about such information.

It also rests on the assumption that firefighters can tell the difference between a controlled demolition and a natural collapse. Like... knowing what a CD sounds like.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Any theory that involves WTC 7 falling other then by fire and damage has to include the FDNY, and I can think of 343 reasons the truthers stay clear of insinuating that directly.

 

[RedIbis]

Any theory that involves WTC 7 falling other then by fire and damage has to include the FDNY, and I can think of 343 reasons the truthers stay clear of insinuating that directly.

Why? Have you taken a good, long look at Gravy's comprehensive list of ff quotes. The majority received word of its imminent collapse. There was no univeral conclusion that the bldg would collapse.

Their quotes are sincere, accurate and enlightening. Study them, please.

 

[BigAl]

We can't think of any plausible inside job scenarios which could happen without the knowledge by the FDNY. Maybe not foreknowledge, but at least knowledge after the fact and complicity in the cover-up.

As of the time of the WTC7 collapse, not only were FDNY people watching WTC7, there were the first volunteer steelworkers, structural engineers and one demolition expert. Many of the people were trying to find survivors in the rubble of WTC1 and WTC2 which would have shown them the south side or WTC7.

Call me crazy, but I expect that many of those steel workers and engineers would know man-made explosives when they heard them.

 

[Garb]

Why? Have you taken a good, long look at Gravy's comprehensive list of ff quotes. The majority received word of its imminent collapse. There was no univeral conclusion that the bldg would collapse.

Their quotes are sincere, accurate and enlightening. Study them, please.

No they did not!

Show me the majority did because I already told you I found very few reports that said that.

 

[johnny karate]

Why? Have you taken a good, long look at Gravy's comprehensive list of ff quotes. The majority received word of its imminent collapse. There was no univeral conclusion that the bldg would collapse.

Their quotes are sincere, accurate and enlightening. Study them, please.

You know what else is enlightening?

The fact that over six years later, there is a universal conclusion among those same firefighters that WTC7 collapsed due to damage and fire.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Why? Have you taken a good, long look at Gravy's comprehensive list of ff quotes. The majority received word of its imminent collapse. There was no univeral conclusion that the bldg would collapse.

Their quotes are sincere, accurate and enlightening. Study them, please.

I have, and it's amazing the number that talk about seeing the uncontrolled fires, the building leaning, hearing the building creaking and groaning, witnessing the damage to the building, and the wall bulging out on one side. If you accept their statements then it's obvious that WTC 7 was in serious trouble, had suffered serious damage, and had large uncontrolled fires raging throughout it. It's also obvious they would have noticed anyone sneaking in with a truck load of explosives.

 

[sts60]

Yes, and having read them from a firefighter's perspective, the consensus up and down the command structure - including the unit officers and the rank-and-file firefighters - is unmistakable. I will repeat, by reference, my comments earlier in this thread.

 

[CHF]

Why? Have you taken a good, long look at Gravy's comprehensive list of ff quotes. The majority received word of its imminent collapse.

Right - they received word from other FDNY.

This was discussed at length in a previous thread which the local twoofers all ran away from.

Perhaps you've been busy since then compiling a story as to how the FDNY who spread the word of WTC7s collapse were not involved in a "demolition." If so, let's hear it.

 

[westprog]

However, there is no plausible scenario for an inside job

Exactly. In the absence of any plausible scenario, they are in the realm of the highly implausible and completely impossible. This makes it very easy to exclude FDNY.

What is sleazy is the kind of "Yes, the FDNY know that it was an inside job, but they know they'd lose their jobs if they went public." They aren't "in on it", but they're too scared to speak up. Luckily a few brave men aren't so easily intimidated. It's a disgusting bit of wish fulfillment that turns 911 around so that the firemen are the cowards, and the conspiracists are brave.

 

[westprog]

However, there is no plausible scenario for an inside job

Exactly. In the absence of any plausible scenario, they are in the realm of the highly implausible and completely impossible. This makes it very easy to exclude FDNY.

What is sleazy is the kind of "Yes, the FDNY know that it was an inside job, but they know they'd lose their jobs if they went public." They aren't "in on it", but they're too scared to speak up. Luckily a few brave men aren't so easily intimidated. It's a disgusting bit of wish fulfillment that turns 911 around so that the firemen are the cowards, and the conspiracists are brave.

 

[SDC]

Anyone acquainted with NYC civic unions can affirm that it would be essentially impossible to fire anyone for making the "wrong" statements. Especially with the FDNY. Sheesh. Maybe where they live...

 

[Sizzler]

Sounds of explosions

I think it is quite obvious that firefighter testimony includes: sounds of explosions, flashes, and sequences of such described as being like a CD. This of course doesn't mean the firefighters think a CD occurred just that it is an approximate comparison.

Det Chord and chargers

With that said, another claim is that firefighters would have found det cord and chargers. However this claim assumes that firefighter would have been able to identify these things within the burning rubble pile. I have yet to see pictures of anything other than paper, concrete, steel, aluminum, dust, etc. Why should we assume that cord and chargers would be so easy to identify?

So I'm still puzzled as to why the firefighters would have had to have been in on it.

 

[WildCat]

Sounds of explosions

I think it is quite obvious that firefighter testimony includes: sounds of explosions, flashes, and sequences of such described as being like a CD.

None of those are nearly as loud as actual CD demo charges, and also demo charges don't go off half an hour before the building collapses.

So I'm still puzzled as to why the firefighters would have had to have been in on it.

1. They would have been in a position to hear and see the very loud and obvious demo charges.
2. Truthers claim firemen talking about how the buildings (especially WTC 7) are coming down is proof of CD.
3. It's claimed that Silverstein discussed blowing up WTC 7 with a fire commander before it collapsed.

 

[BigAl]

Sounds of explosions
I have yet to see pictures of anything other than paper, concrete, steel, aluminum, dust, etc. Why should we assume that cord and chargers would be so easy to identify?

So I'm still puzzled as to why the firefighters would have had to have been in on it.

How much of the debris have you seen in person? I suspect zero. Wide-angle photo shots and cherry-picked YouTube videos don't do the pile justice. It was too big.

The pile was hand-screened twice, roughly by first responders at the site and then by 4,000 (?) crime scene investigators at the S.I. landfill. They found body parts down to finger-nail size and tons of other small, interesting bits.

That WTC7 was about to collapse due to fire was broadcast on the TV news. I saw it.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3859529288033431294
I can't figure out how the Twoofers can make that fact go away. IMO, the Twoofer Noise Machine does it's best to hide teh massive public record we have for 9/11.

It's safe to say that some portion of the firemen have experience with explosives as military vets. Nobody says they heard explosions consistent with man-made demolition and nobody says they saw man-made demolition.

 

[johnny karate]

So I'm still puzzled as to why the firefighters would have had to have been in on it.

For one thing, there is the rather inconvenient fact (for CTers) that to this day, every single firefighter that was on the scene supports the official hypothesis of debris damage and severe fire as the cause of the WTC7 collapse, two phenomena which CTers vehemently assert are either manufactured or exaggerated by proponents of the official version.

If what CTers claim is true, then that would make those firefighters liars, and thus complicit in the conspiracy.

 

[Confuseling]

...the Twoofer Noise Machine does it's best to hide teh massive public record we have for 9/11.

Whose side you batting for?

...teh Twoofer Noise Machine does it's best to hide the massive public record we have for 9/11.

 

[Sizzler]

I found at least one firefighter that questions the official story. In this video he does not explicity support any alternative though.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7471885217846396761

This video also reminded be that Guiliani received warning of WTC tower collapse yet the firefighters weren't told. So in this case it was someone other than a firefighter that predicted collapse.

For WTC7 firefighters knew it was going to collapse. However it isn't known who exactly made the initial prediction, and using WTC tower as an example, it may not have been a firefighter at all.

So if someone other than a firefighter predicted collapse of WTC7 (we know a non-fighterfighter predicted WTC tower), it would eliminate a need for firefighters to be complicit in an inside job.

Also, if WTC7 was being attacked by therm?te before collapse initiation firefighters may have come to the conclusion independently without having to know it was an inside job.