Can Atheists Be Good Citizens?

AmyWilson said:
America is one nation UNDER GOD. Atheists are not as patriotic as Christians are. If you hate God so much, than go to godless Sweden or the Netherlands, where its crime ridden, and abortions galore, because it doesn't believe in God.
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Those words were added in 1954. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegiance#Addition_of_the_words_.22under_God.22

Was no one a patriot or moral before then? Really, a reactionary phrase to Godless Communism is not something that should be enshrined in our society, any more than HUAC.
 
Stone Island said:
I don't think Neuhaus is speaking about the establishment of a national religion or about the dictates of any particular God or gods. Rather, we're talking about whether an atheist can adequately defend a faith in the principles of the Declaration of Independence.
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The question is whether it is an adequate defense of those principles to claim that "that's the way (beat) God planned it, that's the way God wants it to be," and he'd endorse your political principles on 60 Minutes if mass communication wasn't beneath him.

Is a made-up endorsement from a made-up God a stronger argument than a series of reasons why one position is better than another? I don't think so.

Can an atheist be a good citizen, Stone?
 
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Stone Island said:
I don't know God's mind, not being a prophet, so I don't think that I would presume to tell you what He does or doesn't want.
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Would you say that someone who does presume to tell you what god does or doesn't want is probably talking through his hat? Is talking through one's hat a stronger argument than making a rational case that one policy is more just than another?

Can atheists be good citizens, Stone?
 
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Darth Rotor said:
That good man risked his life for his country, he did not willingly martyr himself. He died in a tragic case of fratricide (aka friendly fire) while doing what he did well: leading his team, in this case his fire team of Rangers, in a close combat situation.

As to his display of good citizenship, yes, he sacrificed fame, money, hearth and home for his country. What is love but sacrifice?

Yeah, Pat Tillman loved his country, and showed it by both his actions and humility.

DR
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Well regardless, he is dead because of choices he made based on his love of the USA. According to Stone Island he wasn't a good citizen though, and all his sacrifice was voided on account of his atheism.

That's how I gather it anyway, right Stone Island? I noticed you didn't have anything to say to my post that DR quoted, so can I take your silence as agreement with that statement?
 
Stone Island said:
Can an atheist acknowledge a source of political authority higher than the self?
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Political authority? Yes, the group.

For moral authority, I think the self is at least on par with the group, and often (in private moments of introspection) superior.

Can atheists be good citizens, Stone?
 
Polaris said:
That's how I gather it anyway, right Stone Island? I noticed you didn't have anything to say to my post that DR quoted, so can I take your silence as agreement with that statement?
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Pfft...You want him to answer a question? Get in line.

Edit: Stone, can atheists be yada yada yada?
 
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Stone Island said:
Did I? I don't know God's mind, not being a prophet, so I don't think that I would presume to tell you what He does or doesn't want.
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Then how does belief in a god make it easier for your to have faith in the principles this country was founded on?
 
AmyWilson said:
America is one nation UNDER GOD. Atheists are not as patriotic as Christians are. If you hate God so much, than go to godless Sweden or the Netherlands, where its crime ridden, and abortions galore, because it doesn't believe in God.
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You might want to look up the crime rates of Sweden and the Netherlands. They're astronomically lower than in the US.
 
Polaris said:
Well regardless, he is dead because of choices he made based on his love of the USA. According to Stone Island he wasn't a good citizen though, and all his sacrifice was voided on account of his atheism.
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I am not sure Stone Island means that, but Neuhaus's article seems to infer that. (I do not concur, of course.)

I too am curious with what his position is regarding your response.

DR
 
Now you are just being rude, Stone.

I was clearly ahead of Polaris.

Edit: Actually you were rude to Polaris too. You addressed him but didn't answer the question he asked.
 
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godless dave said:
You might want to look up the crime rates of Sweden and the Netherlands. They're astronomically lower than in the US.
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And their tax rates are higher.

I am trying to assess why you raised that particular point. Can you expand a bit on that?

DR
 
Darth Rotor said:
But even you admit that they were snappy dressers, just as the Drug Lords, Mafiosi and Gangstas of today are quite the fashion plates.

Here's an OT question your post evoked.

Cause or correlation: is the class and quality of the threads one wears an indication of one's moral or criminal bent, or is it merely a coincidence?

DR
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I dunno, widout da pinkie ring... YouknowwhatI'msayin'?
 
Darth Rotor said:
And their tax rates are higher.

I am trying to assess why you raised that particular point. Can you expand a bit on that?

DR
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Amy called those countries "crime-ridden" and implied that it was because they were "godless".

Those countries have lower crime rates, ergo godlessness is obviously not the determining factor.

Edit: Whoops. She didn't imply it. She outright said it.
 
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Let's try that again.

I dunno, widout da pinkie ring... YouknowwhatI'msayin'?
 

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bokonon said:
The question is whether it is an adequate defense of those principles to claim that "that's the way (beat) God planned it, that's the way God wants it to be," and he'd endorse your political principles on 60 Minutes if mass communication wasn't beneath him.

Is a made-up endorsement from a made-up God a stronger argument than a series of reasons why one position is better than another? I don't think so.
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On what basis could we reason about positions if our reasons made no deeper reference than to our preferences?

If you read the Declaration Independence then you'll know that the Supreme Judge of the World supports the principles therein because they're good. I suppose that even the Founders read The Euthyphro. We would lose the protection of divine providence, to which the appeal is made, if they were not.
 
Stone Island said:
I don't think Neuhaus is speaking about the establishment of a national religion or about the dictates of any particular God or gods. Rather, we're talking about whether an atheist can adequately defend a faith in the principles of the Declaration of Independence.
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Irrelevant. The Declaration of Independence is not a document of US government. A good citizen is expected to defend the US Constitution. Why could an atheist not defend the Constitution?
 
Stone Island said:
Thanks, linusrichard.

Now this is a good point. It gets to the crux of the matter.

Can an atheist acknowledge a source of political authority higher than the self?
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Yes. How about "community"? There, I'm glad we could clear that up.
 
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