• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

How To Be A Global Warming Sceptic

Since this is a thread about GWS tactics, I propose this pattern:

  • Debates start smoothly and politely
  • A disagreement occurs
  • Accusations of ignorance/logical fallacies/etc. fly
  • Debate regresses into a few persons taking turns talking
  • Opponent declared a member of the far-left radical fringe
Ah, but you forgot the corollary:

  • Debates start smoothly and politely
  • A disagreement occurs
  • Accusations of ignorance/logical fallacies/etc. fly
  • Debate regresses into a few persons taking turns talking
  • Opponent declared a right-wing creationist oil shill

;)
 
Alric said:
Do you have any published data that supports:

1. The oceans are cooling.
2. This observation is incompatible with climate change.

Can you not just see why?

It is immaterial what we can or think we can deduce. What matters is the empirical observation and discussions by professionals. So I ask again. Do you have a reference for either assertion?
 
Originally Posted by mhaze
Originally Posted by Alric
Do you have any published data that supports:

1. The oceans are cooling.
2. This observation is incompatible with climate change.​
Can you not just see why?
​
It is immaterial what we can or think we can deduce. What matters is the empirical observation and discussions by professionals. So I ask again. Do you have a reference for either assertion?

Yes, Alric I have very interesting references but these require that your opinion It is immaterial what we can or think we can deduce be modified lo some agreeable middle ground.How about It is immaterial what we can or think we can deduce after we drink four pitchers of beer?

Motl would agree with that. He also suggests that the consensus of 3000 robots beats the consensus of 2500 scientists.
 
Allright. That is close to a reference although it does not appear to be published work.

Here is the NPR story link:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88520025

And here is the conclusion of scientists involved in the study:

"Trenberth and Willis agree that a few mild years have no effect on the long-term trend of global warming. But they say there are still things to learn about how our planet copes with the heat."

There is something that is not understood about this one observation. Consider this quote:

"That becomes clear when you consider what's happening to global sea level. Sea level rises when the oceans get warm because warmer water expands. This accounts for about half of global sea level rise. So with the oceans not warming, you would expect to see less sea level rise. Instead, sea level has risen about half an inch in the past four years. That's a lot."

Hardly the death knell of climate change that mhaze and David Rodale purport.

Moreover, Willis, the main researcher behind the ARGO data has since retracted the cooling statements:

"Most of the rapid decrease in globally integrated 18 upper (0–750 m) ocean heat
content anomalies (OHCA) between 2003 and 2005 reported by Lyman et al. [2006]
appears to be an artifact resulting from the combination of two different instrument biases
recently discovered in the in situ profile data."

http://oceans.pmel.noaa.gov/Pdf/heat_2006.pdf

Note that the main purpose of the ARGO project is not to measure temperature but salinity.

So no. The oceans are not cooling.
 
Last edited:
I think I would rather leave it at the retraction from the author of the work himself.
 
Yes, Alric I have very interesting references but these require that your opinion It is immaterial what we can or think we can deduce be modified lo some agreeable middle ground.How about It is immaterial what we can or think we can deduce after we drink four pitchers of beer?

Motl would agree with that. He also suggests that the consensus of 3000 robots beats the consensus of 2500 scientists.

Mhaze,do not link to Motl.He is NOT climate scientist.He is doing theoretical physic and his view on other things is way wrong and flawed.If you want to make point,you will have to find somebody better,since Motl (beside theroetical physic) considered on Czech internet as bad person,with bad attitude and who will not usualy bring good arguments for his side.

So Mhaze his blog does not count...and it does no good for your side of debate...

BTW He likes cenzorship of opposition,he banned me from comments for petty reason...
 
Last edited:
Mhaze,do not link to Motl.He is NOT climate scientist.He is doing theoretical physic and his view on other things is way wrong and flawed.If you want to make point,you will have to find somebody better,since Motl (beside theroetical physic) considered on Czech internet as bad person,with bad attitude and who will not usualy bring good arguments for his side.

So Mhaze his blog does not count...and it does no good for your side of debate...

BTW He likes cenzorship of opposition,he banned me from comments for petty reason...

An you referring to his views on Czech politics?

Is that what you do not like?

By the way many well known "climate scientists" have degrees in physics.
 
Moreover, Willis, the main researcher behind the ARGO data has since retracted the cooling statements:

"Most of the rapid decrease in globally integrated 18 upper (0–750 m) ocean heat content anomalies (OHCA) between 2003 and 2005 reported by Lyman et al. [2006] appears to be an artifact resulting from the combination of two different instrument biases recently discovered in the in situ profile data."

http://oceans.pmel.noaa.gov/Pdf/heat_2006.pdf

Note that the main purpose of the ARGO project is not to measure temperature but salinity.So no. The oceans are not cooling.

"Lyman, corrections" has been discussed many times. DR has alluded to it in this very thread. Excerpt from Motl:

Kevin Trenberth, a hardcore IPCC alarmist, is proposing that cooling effects induced by the clouds might be responsible for the observational discrepancy. ;-) If Trenberth re-discovers the iris effect, after many years, I wonder whether he will remember that Richard Lindzen has done it a long time before him.
 
Last edited:
It doesn't matter. The "Lyman corrections" were made by the group that obtained the data in the first place. They are not based on any esoteric principles or possible mechanisms. The corrections are based on new observations they made on their own instrumentation.
 
"Lyman, corrections" has been discussed many times. DR has alluded to it in this very thread. Excerpt from Motl:

Kevin Trenberth, a hardcore IPCC alarmist, is proposing that cooling effects induced by the clouds might be responsible for the observational discrepancy. ;-) If Trenberth re-discovers the iris effect, after many years, I wonder whether he will remember that Richard Lindzen has done it a long time before him.

Lindzen didn't discover any 'iris'. He had a preconceived notion that there was one, but never came up with any evidence for it.
 
"Lyman, corrections" has been discussed many times. DR has alluded to it in this very thread. Excerpt from Motl:

Kevin Trenberth, a hardcore IPCC alarmist, is proposing that cooling effects induced by the clouds might be responsible for the observational discrepancy. ;-) If Trenberth re-discovers the iris effect, after many years, I wonder whether he will remember that Richard Lindzen has done it a long time before him.

Clouds are a very important issue that are not currently handled at all well in models. GCMs are too coarse to directly model clouds, so they are incorporated using parameterisations. Parameterisations ideally come from detailed physical models; but our detailed physical models of clouds don't correspond to reality, so models use parameterisations based on current observations.

There are two problems with this: firstly, and my main bugbear, the present cloud parameterisations are simply wrong with respect to the *spectral response of clouds, particularly in the tropics; secondly, current observations tell us nothing about how clouds may vary under conditions different to those of today. I note Lindzen's Iris hypothesis gets a knock above (and I don't really subscribe to Lindzen's view myself, for other reasons), but his position is really no worse than what is already in the model parameterisations, which boils down to one big SWAG.

Failure to get these fundamental relationships right in a model containing feedback destroys predictive skill in the model. Nice viewpoint on this topic from Patrick Frank. Again his nuance is slightly different to mine, but he puts his point across very well.

Edited to add: * by spectral response, I am referring to temporal and spatial spectrum, rather than EM spectrum, although our detailed models don't do a good job with the EM spectrum either... but that's another story!
 
Last edited:
Clouds are a very important issue that are not currently handled at all well in models. GCMs are too coarse to directly model clouds, so they are incorporated using parameterisations. Parameterisations ideally come from detailed physical models; but our detailed physical models of clouds don't correspond to reality, so models use parameterisations based on current observations.

There are two problems with this: firstly, and my main bugbear, the present cloud parameterisations are simply wrong with respect to the *spectral response of clouds, particularly in the tropics; secondly, current observations tell us nothing about how clouds may vary under conditions different to those of today. I note Lindzen's Iris hypothesis gets a knock above (and I don't really subscribe to Lindzen's view myself, for other reasons), but his position is really no worse than what is already in the model parameterisations, which boils down to one big SWAG.

Failure to get these fundamental relationships right in a model containing feedback destroys predictive skill in the model. Nice viewpoint on this topic from Patrick Frank. Again his nuance is slightly different to mine, but he puts his point across very well.

Edited to add: * by spectral response, I am referring to temporal and spatial spectrum, rather than EM spectrum, although our detailed models don't do a good job with the EM spectrum either... but that's another story!

That's a good link to Frank's article, later I'll study it in depth. Well, it is quite interesting that Lindzen is roundly denounced and ridiculed, including on this forum for publishing a peer reviewed paper with the speculative hypothesis of the "Iris Theory".

Only a 1% change in cloud cover destroys all AGW, as I understand it, and we don't know if that sort of 1% change has occurred or not.
 
An you referring to his views on Czech politics?

Is that what you do not like?

By the way many well known "climate scientists" have degrees in physics.

I am reffering to any of his opinios outside of his part of physic.He is no authority on this issue,so you need better sources/links!(His opinios are considered bit extreme!)

And you are correct,climate is in atmospheric physic,but that is completely different part than theoretical.(And yes,that is why I am not so far participating in this discussion.I stand in the middle watching both sides...)

So far your side is however lagging behind GW "party"...
 
That's a good link to Frank's article, later I'll study it in depth. Well, it is quite interesting that Lindzen is roundly denounced and ridiculed, including on this forum for publishing a peer reviewed paper with the speculative hypothesis of the "Iris Theory".

Only a 1% change in cloud cover destroys all AGW, as I understand it, and we don't know if that sort of 1% change has occurred or not.

Lindzen's paper is interesting, and really no better or worse than any other theory at the moment. I'd give it a low probability of being right, but then I'd give a low probability of what is currently in GCMs as being right.

In fact a 0% change of mean cloud cover can completely overwhelm AGW in terms of mean global temperature anomaly. I'll see how many bright people on this forum can figure out why ;)
 
Megalodon's graph game playing goes back many months, which is why I've had enough of it.
He doesn't play games. He shows us graphs based on actual data. Are you accusing him of fraud?

I'm calling you on this. Are you?
 
Last edited:
Don't be so sure you know what I'm about, Dave. I don't read climate blogs and I don't know anything about Hansen apart from from reading his 1988 paper and his congressional testimony--based on those data, I didn't see what all the fuss is about. You and mhaze declare me an ignorant git for not knowing about his alleged nuttiness. See my recent post in "A simple question..."

Since this is a thread about GWS tactics, I propose this pattern:

  • Debates start smoothly and politely
  • A disagreement occurs
  • Accusations of ignorance/logical fallacies/etc. fly
  • Debate regresses into a few persons taking turns talking
  • Opponent declared a member of the far-left radical fringe

I don't have time for that kind of crap, even if I'm all too easily drawn into it. ;)

If you don't accept that I am truly interested in following this new oceanic data and seeing where the science leads, then I know you don't know what I'm about.
There is a problem with your pattern: the opponent is declared a far-lefty-greeny from the instant (s)he expresses any doubt about GWS claims.

Note the irony: with few exceptions, GWS are far-right loons, and proud of it.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom