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Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

Name isn't Bubba and since you are being an extremely ignorant and condescending little woo AND you hang in a group with nazi wannabes (which means you probably are one yourself) you just put yourself on ignore and I strongly urge everyone else here to do the same.

by the way, i am not a nazi, i dont hang with nazi's, and i dispise nazi's.

remember you called my suggestion "dumb" in your very first remark to me. before if this forum i was extremely polite dispite a bunch of you guys throwing in insulting comments at me.

i have changed my attitude. get over it bubba!
 
i posted a link of jeff king BECAUSE within that link he mentions the person who did DESIGN THE CORE AND ELEVATOR SHAFTS. now that person, according to jeff, designed them to be hermetically sealed with fire shutters etc in order to prevent chimney effect. and we all know the jet fuel within the elevator shafts was oxygen starved.
They could not have been hermetically sealed! Did people have to bring an oxygen tank with them to use the elevators? Do you see how stupid this claim is?

i dont give a hoot if jeff king was a flower shop owner,
Sure you do, that's why you called him an "MIT engineer" when in fact he is a "physician from California".

now i know a lot of things dont make sense to you. but i am here to help.
let me say this really slowly - the person who designed the core his name is aron swarsky (i am sure i have spelled his name wrong), well that guy, he designed the core to be hermetically sealed.
No elevator is hermetically sealed! People would die of asphyxiation if they were, you'd think a physician would know that!

that does not mean a person cant enter the core or elevators...through doors i would imagine. i guess you have the same problem trying to figure out how it is possible to enter a submarine?
Are you claiming the elevators had their own oxygen supply/generator in them, like submarines do?

You really should stop and think about what you are posting. People use elevators, and they like to be able to breathe when they're in them.
 
by the way, i am not a nazi, i dont hang with nazi's, and i dispise nazi's.

remember you called my suggestion "dumb" in your very first remark to me. before if this forum i was extremely polite dispite a bunch of you guys throwing in insulting comments at me.

i have changed my attitude. get over it bubba!

Your attitude stinks, your suggestion that the elevator shafts are hermetically sealed is dumb and your english is even worse.

Get over it!!
 
They could not have been hermetically sealed! Did people have to bring an oxygen tank with them to use the elevators? Do you see how stupid this claim is?


Sure you do, that's why you called him an "MIT engineer" when in fact he is a "physician from California".


No elevator is hermetically sealed! People would die of asphyxiation if they were, you'd think a physician would know that!


Are you claiming the elevators had their own oxygen supply/generator in them, like submarines do?

You really should stop and think about what you are posting. People use elevators, and they like to be able to breathe when they're in them.

I thought you might have been wrong on this one, so I went over and confirmed it with an architect I work with.

Elevator shafts have a min fire-rating of one hour (modern shafts, not sure about those built in the 60's). This means that not only can the fire not spread for one hour, but the smoke. They're air-tight. Mechanical chases are the same way.

The elevator shafts themselves are fed from a different ventilation supply than the rest of the building.
 
They could not have been hermetically sealed! Did people have to bring an oxygen tank with them to use the elevators? Do you see how stupid this claim is?


Sure you do, that's why you called him an "MIT engineer" when in fact he is a "physician from California".


No elevator is hermetically sealed! People would die of asphyxiation if they were, you'd think a physician would know that!


Are you claiming the elevators had their own oxygen supply/generator in them, like submarines do?

You really should stop and think about what you are posting. People use elevators, and they like to be able to breathe when they're in them.

i have heard this rant all before. but lets get back to the topic shall we?

fireball and backdraft theory by norseman.

backdraft needs ventilation. we have jet fuel in an oxygen starved shaft.
1) where was the source of the ventilation?
2) how was this source established with a fireball?

so just answer the questions hot shot.

as for hermetically sealed. i am no strutural engineer however on the you tube link jeff cites the person who did design the core and elevator shafts of the twin towers. and he says they were hermetically sealed. how this actually works ...i dont know. can you present someone who designed the core and elevator shafts who claims that they were not hermetically sealed to prevent chimney effect? if not - then just let it rest kiddo.

so get back on topic and stop singing off your hymn sheet
 
Your attitude stinks, your suggestion that the elevator shafts are hermetically sealed is dumb and your english is even worse.

Get over it!!

hey funk, long time

i used to be very polite dispite the insults i routinely got. the attitude generally expressed towards CT's in this forum stinks. read any thread.
so if you cant beat them join them.

Do not insult other posters and do not attempt to swear by altering the spelling.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles
 
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I thought you might have been wrong on this one, so I went over and confirmed it with an architect I work with.

Elevator shafts have a min fire-rating of one hour (modern shafts, not sure about those built in the 60's). This means that not only can the fire not spread for one hour, but the smoke. They're air-tight. Mechanical chases are the same way.

The elevator shafts themselves are fed from a different ventilation supply than the rest of the building.
OK, but thewholesoul claims the entire core area was hermetically sealed.

But even as you described, fuel pouring down the shaft would certainly have enough oxygen to ignite, because it is ventilated.
 
backdraft needs ventilation. we have jet fuel in an oxygen starved shaft.
It wasn't "oxygen starved"! People still need to breathe in elevators, and as Newton't Bit points out they have their own ventilation system.

1) where was the source of the ventilation?
I would guess it's from outside the building.

2) how was this source established with a fireball?
I'm not sure what you're asking here.

can you present someone who designed the core and elevator shafts who claims that they were not hermetically sealed to prevent chimney effect? if not - then just let it rest kiddo.
I'd imagine that the large passenger plane hitting the tower at nearly 500 mph might have done a little damage to the elevator doors, wouldn't you think? If so, so much for hermetically sealed and separate ventilation.
 
Pssstt...thewholesoul...there is a wonderful new invention called Capital Letters.You should really find out about them.
 
Pssstt...thewholesoul...there is a wonderful new invention called Capital Letters.You should really find out about them.

Again, do not attack other posters and do not try to get around the autocensor.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles
 
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OK, but thewholesoul claims the entire core area was hermetically sealed.

But even as you described, fuel pouring down the shaft would certainly have enough oxygen to ignite, because it is ventilated.

Well, simply put, the elevator shaft is USUALLY the same shaft that the ventilation ducts go through. These ducts are what supply air to the entire building (well, to the floors tributary to those floors). There would be an exceedingly large amount of available air inside the elevator shaft.
 
The explosion of the fuel in the cores at the impacted levels drove hot fuel down the elevator shafts. Fire stops are intended to keep fire from rising, generally speaking. The fuel may have been burning when it entered the shafts but consumed too much of the available oxygen and stopped burning until it reached the lower levels. At that hour of the day, from the descriptions of what the workers in the basement were doing, there was probably not a lot of activity in the elevators that did communicate with the impacted floors. Most of the open doors, thus the air supply, would have been on the lower levels. All it would take is one open elevator door.

The walls between elevator shafts were just sheet rock, easily blown out by a slow-propogating explosion such as fuel would create. This accounts for the leakage into shafts not communicating with the impact area.

That Morelli and David heard the blast before experiencing the fireball is not a contradiction. The blast drove the fuel, now burning, into other areas. David was close enough to sustain serious burns. That he lived to tell us anything indicates that there was no HE involved in what hit him. It would have frapped him.
 
It wasn't "oxygen starved"! People still need to breathe in elevators, and as Newton't Bit points out they have their own ventilation system.

the point is not whether there was enough ventialtion for people to breathe. the point is whether there was enough ventilation to produce an FAE. for a backdraft some form of ventilation or passage of air is required in order to re-introduce an oxygen supply to the oxygen starved gas.

besides, if you bothered to read the very first post in this thread you would soon realise that you are disputing the position of norseman who states

The keyword is backdraft. The burning jet fuel cascading/raining down the elevator shafts of car number 6,7 and 50 would consume all available oxygen in the shaft on its way down. Behind the burning front of the fireball, in the shafts, there would follow a cloud of expanding hot gasses including evaporated jet fuel, CO and likely pyrolyzed jet fuel, all lacking oxygen to combust.


But even as you described, fuel pouring down the shaft would certainly have enough oxygen to ignite, because it is ventilated.

if there was enough oxygen in the elevator shaft dont you think there would have been an FAE all they way down the shaft, not distributed intermittently as described by the 911 commission?

“A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators.The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground.”– 9/11 Commission Report, P. 285
 
There was not sufficient air in the shafts. That's why explosions only occurred on random floors.
 
where did the fireball get the energy?

So we go back to the question. Where did the fireball get the energy to burst down the shaft doors as described by norseman NIST and the 911 commission.

The doors were blown off by the fireball that came down the elevator shaft (Basement level of WTC 1). (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

Now what i imagine will be suggested is that the “overpressure” from the explosion at the impact zone will cause the shaft doors to explode of their hinges.

But if that is one’s position then it is incumbant unpon you to explain how ALL shaft doors were not blown off their hinges ALL the way down the shaft.

Naturally the “overpressure” will be stonger and more intense nearer the impact zone. It makes perfect sense therefore to expect that the shaft doors nearer to the impact zone will be blown off first.

Unfortunately, what we discover is an intermittent pattern of distribution down the elevator shaft in respect to the shaft doors being blown off.

Am i to conclude that some shaft doors are stronger than others? That overpressure can turn on and off? Or decrease, increase and then increase again in pressure as it descends down the shaft?
 
The explosion of the fuel in the cores at the impacted levels drove hot fuel down the elevator shafts. The fuel may have been burning when it entered the shafts but consumed too much of the available oxygen and stopped burning until it reached the lower levels.

“A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators.The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground.”– 9/11 Commission Report, P. 285

it seems that the jet fuel was not oxygen starved at the 77th and 22th floor.
this stop-start explosive behaviour of the jet fuel is rather odd. So why did the descending fireball explode on these floors as opposed to all the floors immediately beneath the impact zone until say, the 77th?

At that hour of the day, from the descriptions of what the workers in the basement were doing, there was probably not a lot of activity in the elevators that did communicate with the impacted floors. Most of the open doors, thus the air supply, would have been on the lower levels. All it would take is one open elevator door.

This is not the position of NIST they claim that
The doors were blown off by the fireball that came down the elevator shaft (Basement level of WTC 1). (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

So no mention here of “open doors”. Besides if a car is commuting within the elevator shaft the shaft door will remain closed until the car reaches the basement level. This is a basic safety measure.

The walls between elevator shafts were just sheet rock, easily blown out by a slow-propogating explosion such as fuel would create. This accounts for the leakage into shafts not communicating with the impact area.

Sorry lefty, i dont buy it.

Does NIST explain how this transition/leakage between shafts occured or are you just making that up? How do suggest that once a “backdraft” destroyed one such transition wall – that the jet fuel, not consumed by the backdraft, would then leak into another elevator shaft and then create another fireball and backdraft elsewhere?

That Morelli and David heard the blast before experiencing the fireball is not a contradiction. The blast drove the fuel, now burning, into other areas. David was close enough to sustain serious burns. That he lived to tell us anything indicates that there was no HE involved in what hit him. It would have frapped him.

We have a fireball descending the freight elevator shaft. we have occupants in car 50 within this elevator shaft. we have two individuals standing beside the freight elevator shaft door, one at b1 and the other at b4. you want me to believe that this fireball past car 50, without destroying the car, and suddenly exploded between b1 and b4 thereby blowing out or destroying the shaft door at b2-3 thus creating a deflagration which caused another burning fireball witnessed my David and Morelli?

Tell me lefty, how did the fireball blow out the b2-3 shaft door? from where did this oxygen starved fireball recieve the oxygen? Why didnt the fireball just descend all the way down the shaft as one would naturally expect to happen?
 
the magic fireball is supposed to have past the freight car 50 and then burst down the shaft door at b2-3.

read the following statemnet by Harry Waizer. this is what one expects to hear when a fireball passes over your elevator car!!

Waizer, to the 9/11 Commission: The elevator was ascending when, suddenly, I felt it rocked by an explosion, and then felt it plummeting. Orange, streaming sparks were apparent through the gaps in the doors at the sides of the elevator as the elevator scraped the walls of the shaft. The elevator burst into flame. I began to beat at the flames, burning my hands, arms and legs in the process. The flames went out, but I was hit in the face and neck by a separate fireball that came through the gap in the side of the elevator doors. The elevator came to a stop on the 78th floor, the doors opened, and I jumped out.

arturo griffith or marlene cruz report no sparks, no heat, no flames, in fact there is no mention or even the slighest allusion that a fireball had past there car. kinda strange dont you think? and lets not forget, this fireball had the strength to blown down the shaft door at b2-3 yet it magically did no harm to car 50 or its occupants.
 
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According to NIST the only route or passage for the jet fuel was down elevator shaft 6, 7, and 50.

An elevator engineer in the south tower reports:
“We heard the explosion and within a matter of seconds after that impact, I heard – and as well as everybody else heard – this noise, this increasing sound of wind. And it was getting louder and louder. It was like a bomb, not quite the sound of a bomb coming down from a bomber. It was a sound of wind increasing, a whistling sound, increasing in sound

What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.

And apparently from what I talked to with other mechanics, they saw the doors, the hatch doors blow off in the lobby level of 6 and 7 car.”
http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts

and we all know the story of Arturo Griffith and Marlene Cruz in car 50.

In the following testimony we will hear accounts of people being burnt within or beside “local” elevator shafts. All these testimonies can be found at Gravy’s paper: william rodriguez escape artist http://911stories.googlepages.com/

1 According to the accounts I have heard, Debbie was in the lobby waiting for an elevator when AA Flight 11 hit on 93. The jet fuel from the plane poured down the elevator shafts. Owing to the way the elevators are laid out, I don't understand how the fuel got into the elevator that she was waiting for. There are / (were) "Sky Lobbies" on 44 and on 78. So to go above those floors, you took an express elevator to the appropriate sky lobby and then transferred to a local elevator. The elevator machinery was located on the floors above the sky lobbies; only a very few shafts continued all the way up . Anyway, apparently she was in the lobby, the elevator shaftway doors opened and a fireball hit her with full force. She survived and was taken to a hospital with 90% burns. After lingering for about 50 days she died

2 Lobby & 3rd floor: Firefighter Peter Blaich
As we got to the third floor of the B stairway, we forced open an elevator door which was burnt on all three sides. The only thing that was remaining was the hoistway door. And inside the elevator were about I didn’t recognize them initially, but a guy from 1 Truck said oh my God, those are people. They were pretty incinerated. And I remember the overpowering smell of kerosene. That’s when Lieutenant Foti said oh, that’s the jet fuel. I remember it smelled like if you’re camping and you drop a kerosene lamp.

3 Firefighter John Moribito: I noticed that some of the elevators had been blown out of their shafts. They came down and crashed out of the shaft. They were buckled, and I had noticed that there were people still in the elevators. I believe that they were at that point deceased.

4 Firefighter Timothy Brown: We finally set up -- prior to this I believe it was the west side of the core of the building there were elevators. Someone had come to me and said that there were people trapped in one of those elevators. So I ran around the corner, and the hoist way doors were open, but the elevator car was only showing about two feet at the top of the door. You could see all the legs of the people that were in the elevator. I would guess there were about eight people in the elevator. The elevator pit was on fire with the jet fuel.

There are other examples available but these shall suffice.

The question is: if 6, 7, and 50 are the only pathways available for the jet fuel fireballs then how do we explain these four cases above? In the twin towers there were THREE zones in the buildings the first zone ran from one to 42, the second zone started from 44 to 76, and the third zone started from 78 to 110. the four examples above occured in the first zone. That means the jet fuel had to travel down the elevator shaft from the third zone and SOMEHOW leak into the local elevators where these people were found dead or became burnt.

In USATODAY they state: “Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes. The shafts also channeled burning jet fuel throughout both towers. Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts.”

Unfortunately, USA TODAY never explain this "shaft to shaft" process.

Lefty sergent attempts one such explanation he states
The walls between elevator shafts were just sheet rock, easily blown out by a slow-propogating explosion such as fuel would create. This accounts for the leakage into shafts not communicating with the impact area.

Unfortunately lefty sergeant does not explain in detail exactly what “slow-propogating explosion” entails. Wouldn’t the jet fuel be entirely consummed from such an explosion? it just seems a tad inconceivable that sufficient jet fuel could remain unconsummed after such an event to incinerate people, create fireballs in various local elevators.

I cant recall NIST mentioning much less explaining this shaft to shaft transfer of jet fuel. Moreover let us not forget that the jet fuel is descending in a downwards projection as NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder says that “the burning jet fuel simply followed the path of least resistance.” Can descending jet fuel in one elevator shaft survive an explosion unconsummed and then swing a right turn into another elevator shaft?

So the question is for whoever cares is...explain this “shaft to shaft” transfer that skipped two zones, an explosion, and defied the natural trajectory of gravity to jump into another shaft with a sufficient amount of combustible jet fuel so as to cause another raging fireball.
 
Unfortunately, USA TODAY never explain this "shaft to shaft" process.
There were several elevators on the floor the plane impacted. The fuel went in all of them. I don't know if the shafts were separated from each other, or several elevators were side-by-side in the same shaft. If the latter, it explains how fuel could get into other elevators.

Wouldn’t the jet fuel be entirely consummed from such an explosion? it just seems a tad inconceivable that sufficient jet fuel could remain unconsummed after such an event to incinerate people, create fireballs in various local elevators.
Only about 15% of the fuel burned in the initial fireball, after that point there was no more oxygen left to support combustion. The fuel that didn't burn was then free to flow across the floors and down the shafts until sufficient oxygen re-entered the building, whereupon it ignited explosively.

With so many firemen describing the smell of jet fuel, why would you think this didn't happen? Did NWO agents go around pouring jet fuel all over the elevator shafts?
 

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