Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[Hellbound]

Found some more interesting tidbits browsing that article. This listing was at the end:
(for those not following, this is the same article as my last post, found here)

Severely damaged. Frame collapse/massive destruction. Little left standing. The total destruction of most buildings would result from 10-12 PSI incident pressure, while a blast of 6-9 PSI incident pressure would produce severe damage to reinforced concrete structures and 4-7 PSI incident pressure would produce serious damage to steel framed buildings.
Heavily damaged. Major portions of the structure will collapse (over 50%). A significant percentage of secondary structural members will collapse (over 50%). Major deformation of primary and secondary structural members, but progressive collapse is unlikely. Collapse of non-structural elements.
Damaged – unrepairable. 2.3 PSI incident pressure. Some sections of the structure may collapse or lose structural capacity (10 to 20% of structure). Major deformation of non-structural elements and secondary structural members and minor deformation of primary structural members, but progressive collapse is unlikely.
Damaged – repairable. 1.8 PSI incident pressure. Minor to major deformations of both structural members and non-structural elements. Some secondary debris will be likely, but the structure remains intact with collapse unlikely. Minor deformations of non-structural elements and secondary structural members and no permanent deformation in primary structural members.
Superficially damaged. 1.1 PSI incident pressure. No permanent deformation of primary and secondary structural members or non-structural elements.

 

[Norseman]

Finally, perhaps someone here would like to attempt to tell me why local elevator bank A appears to have 5 out of 6 of its doors blown off?

etc, etc, etc.......

Over pressure created by the fireball from mainly elevator shaft 6 and 7. That is the short answer. Goodnight.

 

[thewholesoul]

Over pressure created by the fireball from mainly elevator shaft 6 and 7. That is the short answer. Goodnight.

6 elevator doors were blown out in bank A. no elevator doors were blown out in bank B. bank B was closer to the freight elevator shaft and 6, 7. therefore if overpressure from a fireball emitting from shaft 6, 7 is what your saying caused the 6 doors being blown out in bank A - then how come no doors were blown out in bank B which was closer to the fireball and overpressure?

 

[DGM]

6 elevator doors were blown out in bank A. no elevator doors were blown out in bank B. bank B was closer to the freight elevator shaft and 6, 7. therefore if overpressure from a fireball emitting from shaft 6, 7 is what your saying caused the 6 doors being blown out in bank A - then how come no doors were blown out in bank B which was closer to the fireball and overpressure?

Could you PLEASE present an argument that supported your theory? If there was a bomb large enough in the basement to do anything to the structure the elevator doors would be the least of the damage. Much more of the building would be effected. Think 1993 and the devastation that was created.

Would you mind putting together what you think these bombs were placed for keeping in mind the size of the structure (in the basement levels) and the collateral damage that would be caused to disturb such structure?

 

[StoneRook]

Here's a question:

Were there any reports of lobby damage in WTC2, similar to WTC1?

(specifically after the plane hit WTC2)

I haven't come across any in my searches.

 

[Gravy]

Here's a question:

Were there any reports of lobby damage in WTC2, similar to WTC1?

(specifically after the plane hit WTC2)

I haven't come across any in my searches.

Yes, the reports were almost identical. See my page here: Inside the South Tower: Witness Accounts

 

[StoneRook]

Ah, thanks for that Gravy.

I should of read all your links. (I find myself concentrating on WTC 1 for some reason)

 

[Norseman]

6 elevator doors were blown out in bank A. no elevator doors were blown out in bank B. bank B was closer to the freight elevator shaft and 6, 7. therefore if overpressure from a fireball emitting from shaft 6, 7 is what your saying caused the 6 doors being blown out in bank A - then how come no doors were blown out in bank B which was closer to the fireball and overpressure?

Who said that all the doors were blown out in bank A. I assume you found your information in this post by hard lines on the page before this.

And specifically this quote:

We get into the lobby of the north tower and the first elevator bank, there was one elevator out of the six that still had the lights on, but they couldn?t get it to work. Meanwhile, all the other elevators were blown off their doors. So we tried the next elevator bank of six and they finally got one that worked to the 24th floor. I think it was captain of 21 he went up to check. He went up and he came back down. He went up with his guys and someone from the truck took the elevator. And then the other engine went up in the next load, 22, and on the load after that, the truck was going up. They wanted one of our guys to run the elevators since there was only one truck, so I gave the control radio to Fireman Louie Cacchioli.

Source

So that is 5 doors damaged in bank A. And nothing about the status of the five other doors in the next bank where they found a working elevator. When are you able to get the facts right?

You should also read the remainder of the quotes in the post by hard lines carefully. Ignore his conclusions they are wrong. They indicate quit clearly that most of the doors in the elevator lobby had sustained serious damage from over pressure caused by the deflagration. Which door that held up to the pressure and which door that gave way could depend on many factors like variations in the strength of the doors for instance, even coincidence. And all the soot on the ceiling in the middle of the lobby is easily explained by remaining jet fuel burning for some time inside elevator shaft 6, 7 and 50.

This was a consequence of Flight 11's impact and nothing else.

 

[thewholesoul]

backdraft - debunked

hey norseman it been a while.

your "backdraft" hypothesis can be easily dismissed as false.

you provided two nice links of a backdraft in uraguay and an artifically created backdraft. looking at these links you soon realise the problem with your hypothesis.

in both these links there was access for fresh air to mix with the oxygen starved gases. but the elevator in the twin towers was specifically designed not to act as a chimney in the event of a fire. is was essentially like a closed tunnel (apart from the entry point of the jet fuel at the impact zone approximately 90 floors above).

so where did the fresh air gain access to the oxygen starved gases? you say

When the fireball shot out of the shafts at the bottom, all the unburned gasses mixed with fresh air and rapidly deflagrated, causing the overpressure that blew out walls and windows.

Normally backdraft occurs in fires when fresh air suddenly enters the confined space of an oxygen starved fire. The principle would be the same for an oxygen starved fireball that shoots in to a room filled with fresh air.

so basically a fireball shoots out an elevator shaft presumably at an elevator door, enters the room, and deflagrates.

Now Felipee David and philip Morelli were right infront or standing next to the elevator doors of the freight elevator. long story short, if your hypothesis was true then we would expect both these gentlemen to see or feel the fireball first and then hear a deflagration.

but that does not happen. they both heard an "explosion" first and AFTER the explosion they felt heat from a fireball. again with Hurseley Lever and Jose Sanchez in the B4 basement the report hearing a "bomb" or "explosion" first and then a fireball.

conclusion: your wrong. no fireball entered B4 basement followed by a deflagration. testimony reveals that an explosion occured prior to fireball being witnessed. with no access for the supposed gases in the eLevator shaft to mix with the fresh air in the basement levels there COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A BACKDRAFT

its back to the drawing board for you my firend

 

[~enigma~]

hey norseman it been a while.

your "backdraft" hypothesis can be easily dismissed as false.

you provided two nice links of a backdraft in uraguay and an artifically created backdraft. looking at these links you soon realise the problem with your hypothesis.

in both these links there was access for fresh air to mix with the oxygen starved gases. but the elevator in the twin towers was specifically designed not to act as a chimney in the event of a fire. is was essentially like a closed tunnel (apart from the entry point of the jet fuel at the impact zone approximately 90 floors above).

so where did the fresh air gain access to the oxygen starved gases? you say





so basically a fireball shoots out an elevator shaft presumably at an elevator door, enters the room, and deflagrates.

Now Felipee David and philip Morelli were right infront or standing next to the elevator doors of the freight elevator. long story short, if your hypothesis was true then we would expect both these gentlemen to see or feel the fireball first and then hear a deflagration.

but that does not happen. they both heard an "explosion" first and AFTER the explosion they felt heat from a fireball. again with Hurseley Lever and Jose Sanchez in the B4 basement the report hearing a "bomb" or "explosion" first and then a fireball.

conclusion: your wrong. no fireball entered B4 basement followed by a deflagration. testimony reveals that an explosion occured prior to fireball being witnessed. with no access for the supposed gases in the eLevator shaft to mix with the fresh air in the basement levels there COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A BACKDRAFT

its back to the drawing board for you my firend

Been a long time since anyone was dumb enough to try the Karnak gambit and it's hermetically sealed garbage.

 

[thewholesoul]

there is dumb, and then there is dumber

Been a long time since anyone was dumb enough to try the Karnak gambit and it's hermetically sealed garbage.

in the following link http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=q8XToX7aSdg

you will hear MIT Engineer Jeff King. he mentions the name of the engineer who DESIGNED the core of the towers. the core was designed to prevent a chimney effect. it was hermetically sealed and there were fire shutters to cut off the airflow into the core.

do you understand the significance of this bubba? really, can you grasp it?

for a back draft you NEED ventilation.

now norseman's answer to the problem of ventilation was not to suggest that the air from the lobby and mechanical rooms could enter the elevator shaft. obviously if this were possible, which it is not, then the famous backdraft would have naturally occured long before it fell 90+ floors. you understand that buuba?

what norseman proposes is that a fireball burst into the lobby and basement presumably through an elevator door as there would be no other exit point in an elevator shaft. he chooses not to mention that a fireball on its own would not have sufficient energy to this. and even if it did have the energy then he must explain why this event did not occur ALL THE WAY DOWN THE ELEVATOR SHAFT.

in any case once the fireball enters the lobby and the mechanical rooms the combustible gas following the fireball would then be exposed to air and result in a deflagration.

thats it - thats his fantastic theory.

so allow me to make this really simple for you bubba: fireball bursting out an elevator door - deflagration - the sound of a deflagration.

however from the testimony of people WHO WERE IN THE BUILDING they heard an explosion FIRST then afterwards we have some reports of a fireball.

conclusion:
- the engineer who designed the core claims they were hermetically sealed to prevent the chimney effect. who are you?
- with no ventilation there could be no backdraft
- the sequence of events obtained from testimony contradicts norsemans theory

so you go back to believing in your american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.

 

[WildCat]

you will hear MIT Engineer Jeff King.

Jeff King is a physician who got a degree at MIT in electrical engineering many years ago. He is not an expert on structures.

he mentions the name of the engineer who DESIGNED the core of the towers. the core was designed to prevent a chimney effect. it was hermetically sealed and there were fire shutters to cut off the airflow into the core.

You do know that the elevators were located within the core columns, don't you? How on earth did people get into the elevators if the area they were located was "hermetically sealed"?

This doesn't even make any sense.

 

[applecorped]

in the following link http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=q8XToX7aSdg

you will hear MIT Engineer Jeff King. he mentions the name of the engineer who DESIGNED the core of the towers. the core was designed to prevent a chimney effect. it was hermetically sealed and there were fire shutters to cut off the airflow into the core.

do you understand the significance of this bubba? really, can you grasp it?

for a back draft you NEED ventilation.

now norseman's answer to the problem of ventilation was not to suggest that the air from the lobby and mechanical rooms could enter the elevator shaft. obviously if this were possible, which it is not, then the famous backdraft would have naturally occured long before it fell 90+ floors. you understand that buuba?

what norseman proposes is that a fireball burst into the lobby and basement presumably through an elevator door as there would be no other exit point in an elevator shaft. he chooses not to mention that a fireball on its own would not have sufficient energy to this. and even if it did have the energy then he must explain why this event did not occur ALL THE WAY DOWN THE ELEVATOR SHAFT.

in any case once the fireball enters the lobby and the mechanical rooms the combustible gas following the fireball would then be exposed to air and result in a deflagration.

thats it - thats his fantastic theory.

so allow me to make this really simple for you bubba: fireball bursting out an elevator door - deflagration - the sound of a deflagration.

however from the testimony of people WHO WERE IN THE BUILDING they heard an explosion FIRST then afterwards we have some reports of a fireball.

conclusion:
- the engineer who designed the core claims they were hermetically sealed to prevent the chimney effect. who are you?
- with no ventilation there could be no backdraft
- the sequence of events obtained from testimony contradicts norsemans theory

so you go back to believing in your american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.

Keep believing in your American nightmare - you helped create it! Good work!

 

[R.Mackey]

You do know that the elevators were located within the core columns, don't you? How on earth did people get into the elevators if the area they were located was "hermetically sealed"?

This doesn't even make any sense.

I agree, this line of reasoning is total nonsense. We also happen to know from the 1993 WTC bombing that the core did provide a stack effect, and a big one.

There were indeed measures designed in to reduce the stack effect, but that doesn't mean it was zero. Particularly after being nailed by a jetliner.

 

[~enigma~]

Wonder why I always heard wind whipping through the elevator shafts every time I was in the WTC? Guess thewholesoul figured it all out so we can go home

 

[thewholesoul]

can you answer a question?

Wonder why I always heard wind whipping through the elevator shafts every time I was in the WTC? Guess thewholesoul figured it all out so we can go home

i just love the way you avoid the questions bubba. instead you consider a personal description of passing wind in an elevator as sufficient. i dont.

backdraft needs ventilation, the gas needs contact with air. the environment within the elevator shaft was oxygen starved. my friend is a fireman he knows that. i know that, and so do you. so we are all in agreement thus far.

so tell me bubba, where was the source of ventilation that caused the deflagration? and how did the fireball theory propsed by norseman create an access to the air in the mechanical rooms?

are you claiming like norseman that a fireball burst through an elevator door?
so where did the fireball get the energy to do that?

and if your saying because you heard wind whipping through the elevator shafts, then tell me bubba, if that is your source of ventilation to create a backdraft, praytell why the deflagration did not occur all the way down the shaft?

next post please try and answer a question as opposed to silly little one liners.

 

[~enigma~]

i just love the way you avoid the questions bubba. instead you consider a personal description of passing wind in an elevator as sufficient. i dont.

backdraft needs ventilation, the gas needs contact with air. the environment within the elevator shaft was oxygen starved. my friend is a fireman he knows that. i know that, and so do you. so we are all in agreement thus far.

so tell me bubba, where was the source of ventilation that caused the deflagration? and how did the fireball theory propsed by norseman create an access to the air in the mechanical rooms?

are you claiming like norseman that a fireball burst through an elevator door?
so where did the fireball get the energy to do that?

and if your saying because you heard wind whipping through the elevator shafts, then tell me bubba, if that is your source of ventilation to create a backdraft, praytell why the deflagration did not occur all the way down the shaft?

next post please try and answer a question as opposed to silly little one liners.

Name isn't Bubba and since you are being an extremely ignorant and condescending little woo AND you hang in a group with nazi wannabes (which means you probably are one yourself) you just put yourself on ignore and I strongly urge everyone else here to do the same.

 

[thewholesoul]

Jeff King is a physician who got a degree at MIT in electrical engineering many years ago. He is not an expert on structures..

howdy wildcat,

i posted a link of jeff king BECAUSE within that link he mentions the person who did DESIGN THE CORE AND ELEVATOR SHAFTS. now that person, according to jeff, designed them to be hermetically sealed with fire shutters etc in order to prevent chimney effect. and we all know the jet fuel within the elevator shafts was oxygen starved.

i dont give a hoot if jeff king was a flower shop owner, the theme in THIS thread is "fireball and backdraft" not strutures. i am not concerned about jeff king but the information about the design of the towers i thought was helpful. i hope you can understand that much.

You do know that the elevators were located within the core columns, don't you? How on earth did people get into the elevators if the area they were located was "hermetically sealed"?

This doesn't even make any sense.

for a minute there i thought the elevators were outside the twin towers! thanks for informing me however with that insightful knowledge.

now i know a lot of things dont make sense to you. but i am here to help.
let me say this really slowly - the person who designed the core his name is aron swarsky (i am sure i have spelled his name wrong), well that guy, he designed the core to be hermetically sealed.

that does not mean a person cant enter the core or elevators...through doors i would imagine. i guess you have the same problem trying to figure out how it is possible to enter a submarine?

 

[thewholesoul]

Name isn't Bubba and since you are being an extremely ignorant and condescending little woo AND you hang in a group with nazi wannabes (which means you probably are one yourself) you just put yourself on ignore and I strongly urge everyone else here to do the same.

glad to hear that,

run away and have a good cry, at least that way you can avoid answering the questions.

 

[thewholesoul]

I agree, this line of reasoning is total nonsense. We also happen to know from the 1993 WTC bombing that the core did provide a stack effect, and a big one.

There were indeed measures designed in to reduce the stack effect, but that doesn't mean it was zero. Particularly after being nailed by a jetliner.

hey mackey

the impact of a jet liner was 90+ floors above the basement

the elevator shaft was oxygen starved

where did the gas following the fireball, according to norseman's proposal, recieve the ventilation in order to deflagrate? and how was this ventilation created with a fireball?

maybe you can answer that.