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A world without marriage

You are improperly conflating hypocrisy in national gov't policies and individual hypocrisy.

Your original comment was in regards to individual hypocrisy. Boiled down to its essence, hypocrisy can be summarized as "saying one thing while doing another", or "failing to practice what you preach".

Now, my individual beliefs are, in many cases, different than those of my society or my government. My parents, and the religion that I grew up in, teach that homosexuality is a sin...but I do not believe that. So the question of whether I am a hypocrite or not cannot be defined according to broad definitions of what my culture believes in. It must be defined in terms of what I, individually, say that I believe to be right or wrong.

Now, if I personally say publicly that discrimination against homosexuals is wrong, but then I refuse to hire someone because they are gay, then I am a hypocrite -- regardless of what my culture/government believes in regards to homosexuality. If I personally say publicly that homosexuality is evil, and a sin, but then I am discovered engaging in homosexual trysts, then I am a hypocrite -- regardless of what my culture/government believes in regards to homosexuality.

Yes, my government says and does things that I consider to be hypocritical -- I don't know of any government that does not. But your original question was not regarding government, it was regarding the individuals within the Mosuo culture. And, as I said, I don't think it is possible to generalize in making conclusions about rates of hypocrisy based on the "normal" beliefs within a culture; one must look instead at the individuals, and whether or not they act in a manner that consistently mirrors what they say they believe is right or wrong. A person who does is not a hypocrite; a person who does not is a hypocrite.

Or, if you want to look at it as a group, you might try to make an argument (as I believe you are attempting to do) that since the Mosuo don't have specific taboos against homosexuality, they are less likely to act "hypocritically" towards homosexuals. But on the other hand, you'd also have to consider all the younger Mosuo who say that they "treasure" their culture, while in practice they reject traditional practices in favor of "modern" life...which would, by definition, be hypocritical. Again, this is why I say it is impossible to generalize...you may be able to find a few individual categories in which "hypocrisy" is less likely, but that doesn't mean there won't be other categories where it is more common.

My objection -- such as it is -- to your original conclusion was that it seeks to take one isolated aspect of Mosuo culture/beliefs, and from that one aspect draw a wide conclusion about the entire culture. That simply cannot be done; if we really wanted to look at this seriously, we'd have to look at numerous different areas of Mosuo beliefs, what proportion of Mosuo actively shared those beliefs, and what proportion of those who said they shared those beliefs acted in a manner that indicated hypocritical behavior. Which is well beyond the scope of this discussion, and certainly well beyond my own ability to answer in an authoritative manner. The only answer I can give is that I believe it is incorrect to draw any conclusion, one way or the other, about "hypocrisy" in Mosuo culture, based on such limited data.
 
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Farethewell, Amigo, and tnx for the Insights

It is is indeed refreshing to be able to enter into honest discussion on such a topic as human cultures and not wind up embroiled in a quagmire of endless argument. You have kept things well balanced and easy to follow...thus lending to an atmosphere of hospitality, not hostility....tnx Amigo Keep on telling the tale and widening the gap between ignorance and its allies and narrowing that space between the ears to accommodate genuine historic and cultural exchange.
 
Hello Wolfman!,

A few pages ago, you spoke about possibly helping the Mosuo open up trade with the outside world (my poorly chosen words, not yours!) - have you been able to establish trade with the outside world for some of the textiles that you said they produce? Or are such things regulated rather heavily by the Chinese government?
 
verusl@centurytel.ne said:
It is is indeed refreshing to be able to enter into honest discussion on such a topic as human cultures and not wind up embroiled in a quagmire of endless argument. You have kept things well balanced and easy to follow...thus lending to an atmosphere of hospitality, not hostility....tnx Amigo Keep on telling the tale and widening the gap between ignorance and its allies and narrowing that space between the ears to accommodate genuine historic and cultural exchange.
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Thanks, too, for reading what is here, and for asking questions. I really appreciate the interest that people have shown in this topic.
Formerly said:
Hello Wolfman!,

A few pages ago, you spoke about possibly helping the Mosuo open up trade with the outside world (my poorly chosen words, not yours!) - have you been able to establish trade with the outside world for some of the textiles that you said they produce? Or are such things regulated rather heavily by the Chinese government?
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We've done this on a small scale, within China. We have provided financial assistance for a few small shops to be set up in popular tourist areas, to sell Mosuo products. The problem is that while Mosuo products are quite attractive, they're also very limited...there's just not much that is "real Mosuo handicraft". Mostly, it consists of hand-woven products (scarves, jackets, etc.) made of hemp or wool.

Selling these products has resulted in a moderate increase in income for some Mosuo, but it is far from being a solution.

This is why we are trying to find ways to broaden the scope of products that the Mosuo can offer; my own idea, mentioned some while ago, is to try at some point to import alpacas, teach the Mosuo to breed and care for them, then have them make hand-woven products out of alpaca hair. This utilizes skills they already have, to make a product that is still identifiably Mosuo, yet of a much higher quality (and much lesser availability), so that both prices and demand for such products will be higher (hopefully).

There are lots of other ideas and possibilities for the future; but right now, we're still very much in the beginning phases.
 
I received the following PM from a new member named Hex a few weeks ago with a question about the Mosuo. I replied to ask him if I could post it, and the answer, here in the thread. However, he never replied to my PM, and in fact his post count is still at zero, so I'm assuming that he's likely gone and not coming back. I'll therefore put his question and my reply here.
Hex said:
Wolfman said:
* Men's Development -- While it is generally easier to attract support for women's issues, men's issues tend to be less 'sexy' and 'politically correct'. However, there are serious issues in this regard, also. Traditionally, Mosuo men were traders, who took caravans around the region to trade with others. Thus, traditional male roles focused on trade and travel; traditional female roles focused on jobs at home (tending the fields, tending the animals, cooking, etc.). But now that these caravans are no longer very useful, the primary "male" role has disappeared, and many men are reluctant to take what are perceived as "female" roles. In addition, the area has almost no special natural resources that can be used to build an economic base.
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Now I hope I'm not asking a question that's been answered, because I've only managed to finish reading one of the threads on the subject, and my comprehension was going toward the end of it. So I'll need a break before I continue reading, but I had a concern right here that would just nag me to no end if I didn't address it somehow.

Wouldn't putting the control of primary income, in the hands of the men be a Huge shift? Naturally most men would still consider their culture matriarchal, but as generations go by with those who have money being governed by those who are better educated I'm genuinely concerned that it would tilt or otherwise damage the culture by putting so much monetary value within the men.

But then again you did mention that they were formerly the traders, so at least some of my concern must be unfounded, then again producing goods, and trading them. Well it's all a strangely difficult concept to wrap my mind around and I'd sleep easier if you helped me out with it ^^'
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No, I don't think this question has been asked yet.

In general, this is not having a significant impact on Mosuo culture. As you mention, men have long had a role as money-earners in Mosuo culture, this is nothing new. But then, as now, the money they earned was not considered their own money, but rather belonged to the entire family; and it was the matriarch of the family who determined how that money was used.

Sure, men are taking different jobs and roles than they did in the past; but they still give the money to the family, and the matriarch still determines how it should be used.
 
*UPDATE* (and bump)

There is a new website, GiveMeaning.com, that provides assistance in helping organizations like mine increase awareness of our work, and get financial support for our projects. I've registered a profile there, but before my proposal can be considered any further, I have to get a minimum of 100 votes from other people, indicating that the project has enough people who think it is worthwhile.

There is no commitment involved, you are not required to give money, you're just casting a vote to say, "Yes, I think this is a worthwhile project."

To cast your vote, please go here.

Now, I'm gonna' impose myself on you a little further. Besides casting your own vote, if you might be willing to let your friends and family know, and get them voting also, that'd be great! I've written a basic letter below that you can feel free to use as an introduction, so that people know what this is about.

Oh...and after you cast your vote, if you'd like to take a little time to add some comments on the site, or ask questions, please feel free to do that, also!

My sincerest gratitude to anyone and everyone who takes the time to help us out!

----- Introductory Letter ------

The Lugu Lake Mosuo Cultural Development Association is a non-profit organization based in China that works with one of the Chinese minority groups living in the Himalayan Mountains, called the Mosuo. The Mosuo are a unique culture, being one of the few remaining matriarchal cultures in the world, and also having no cultural system of marriage. They are a truly fascinating culture.

They also live in one of the poorest and most remote areas of the world. Many Mosuo villages don't even have electricity; most villages don't have running water. Average annual income for many Mosuo is less than $US100/year.

Our organization seeks to help the Mosuo in areas such as education, cultural study/preservation, and economic development. For more information about the Mosuo culture, and about our organization's work with the Mosuo, you can check out our website at www.mosuoproject.org.

Now, we are seeking to gain assistance both in letting more people know about our work, and in raising funds to support our projects, by partnering with GiveMeaning.com. This is a website that helps publicize and raise funds for charitable projects all over the world. But before they will consider our organization, we need a minimum of 100 votes before Jan. 26, 2008. It only takes a few minutes to vote, and you are not required to give any money, or make any commitment for financial support. All you are doing is casting a vote to say, "Yes, this is a project that I think is worthwhile."

To vote, go to http://www.givemeaning.com/project/mosuo

And please, do pass this email on to any friends or family that you think would also be interested.

Thank you so much for your time, and your support!

John Lombard
Director
Lugu Lake Mosuo Cultural Development Association
 
I really don't see how the Mosou is any different from our society.

While it is possible for a Mosuo woman to change partners as often as she likes – and in fact, having only one sexual partner would be neither expected nor common – the majority of such couplings will actually be more long term.
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Women have the power to pick almost any man that is single. Men do not.
 
daenku32 said:
I really don't see how the Mosou is any different from our society.

Women have the power to pick almost any man that is single. Men do not.
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An interesting perspective. Let me present another perspective.

In our society, there is generally a double standard between men and women who have many different sexual partners. Men who do this are seen as "studs"; women who do this are seen as "sluts". I know that this is a major generalization, but is a standard that is common enough that everyone here will be familiar with it.

On the other hand, among the Mosuo, there is no such double standard. Men and women have equal right/ability to have different sexual partners.
 
Wolfman, I can make no promises, but I may be able to get hold of some used (fairly low spec Celerons with no more than about 128M of sdram) Dell computers. If I can, can you use them? I don't know how I'd get them to you though as I'm very, very far from being wealthy & certainly couldn't afford to ship them to China.

If this seems to be a useless post, don't worry about it, I'll understand.
 
Very informative

The Mosuo are lucky to have such an ardent and erudite supporter as yourself. What a challenging and wonderful journey upon which you appear to have embarked.

I have read this thread with great interest, and must admit to the most base human instinct of looking for the "catch" (which points to my flaws more glaringly than anything else). To steal a phrase, when something looks too good to be true etc.... This looks unbelievably good! Kudos to you for what appears to be a wonderful... everything...!

Please forgive if the following has the appearance of armchair-quarterbacking, or sniping. It is not so intended... Also, please forgive if it appears to ramble...

I think what's been getting to me is the apparent "main-message" in support of this subsistence population (over some other) is in its "unique" social structure. The fact that they're poverty-stricken, and we might help, appears secondary to we should help them because of their "unique" matriarchal social structure. I suspect there are many populations within the world who are poverty-bound, even within China I doubt the Mosuo are unique in their level of poverty (if that is an ignorant statement, then I stand ready to be corrected).

I am curious if it's possible that their social-structure is less "structured" than we think it is. Isn't it possible that we're seeing more what we want to see than what might really be there? From what I read, they have evolved an efficient way to deal with the rigours of subsistence-living. You say there is no battle over property or children, yet there appears to be little enough to fight over! I would guess that survival tends to really focus your attention on the important stuff...

Further, the claims to this uniqueness are based upon apparently limited experience. With due respect, I don't view your contact (as described within this thread) with the Mosuo as extensive. Nor are you any longer a disinterested outside observer. Nothing wrong with being an insider, but it is generally viewed as creating a bias (which is virtually impossible to avoid as a human being, IMHO).

The fact the Priest was off to officiate at a marriage, which tradition no anthropologists were familiar with, speaks volumes to me about the paucity of information about this culture. Further, there is a fleeting reference to an "patriarchally-structured" nobility...?

None of the above is reason not to help the Mosuo in any way possible, and for that, Kudos to you and your Crew.

Outside of the tourism stuff, what is the next identified objective/project of the group? I did read all the stuff about goals and objectives, but I'm wondering what's happening tomorrow...?

Cheers and Best wishes
 
Lensman said:
Wolfman, I can make no promises, but I may be able to get hold of some used (fairly low spec Celerons with no more than about 128M of sdram) Dell computers. If I can, can you use them? I don't know how I'd get them to you though as I'm very, very far from being wealthy & certainly couldn't afford to ship them to China.

If this seems to be a useless post, don't worry about it, I'll understand.
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Lensman,

If you could get ahold of them, and find a way to get them to China, they'd most definitely be welcome. Question is whether or not we could find a way to keep the cost low enough to justify it. Let's talk about this more!
 
Arkayik said:
The Mosuo are lucky to have such an ardent and erudite supporter as yourself. What a challenging and wonderful journey upon which you appear to have embarked.

I have read this thread with great interest, and must admit to the most base human instinct of looking for the "catch" (which points to my flaws more glaringly than anything else). To steal a phrase, when something looks too good to be true etc.... This looks unbelievably good! Kudos to you for what appears to be a wonderful... everything...!
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Thanks!

And I've very happy that this thread has been resurrected again...I was afraid that all possible topics and questions had been covered so thoroughly that nobody would have anything else to ask, but you've come up with some brand new questions, and very relevant ones at that!
Please forgive if the following has the appearance of armchair-quarterbacking, or sniping. It is not so intended... Also, please forgive if it appears to ramble...

I think what's been getting to me is the apparent "main-message" in support of this subsistence population (over some other) is in its "unique" social structure. The fact that they're poverty-stricken, and we might help, appears secondary to we should help them because of their "unique" matriarchal social structure. I suspect there are many populations within the world who are poverty-bound, even within China I doubt the Mosuo are unique in their level of poverty (if that is an ignorant statement, then I stand ready to be corrected).
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I must admit here to a combination of idealism and pragmatism. The reasons for specifically choosing the Mosuo as a target are both simple, and complicated.

The 'simple' reason is that they just happened to be the minority that I chose to go and live with, and therefore wanted to help. If I'd gone to live in another minority group, its quite possible that I would have chosen to set up an organization to help that minority group.

But there are more complicated reasons, also. In the area where the Mosuo live, there are actually a number of different minorities, not just the Mosuo. They all face similar challenges in regards to poverty, education, cultural preservation, etc. The Mosuo are hardly unique in this regard.

And many of these minorities are fairly intermixed. When I talk about "Mosuo schools", these are schools that are in areas that are predominantly Mosuo, but also have students from other minority groups; helping those schools also benefits those other minorities. And likewise, there are schools in areas that are not predominantly Mosuo, but that have at least some Mosuo students. We likewise seek to help those schools under our "Mosuo" mandate, but this assistance benefits those other minorities even more.

If we were speaking in ideal terms, I'd like to set up an organization to help all of these minority groups. But realistically speaking, that is not feasible right now, for a number of reasons:

1) One of my main focuses, as stated before, is that the local people make all the decisions themselves about what their priorities are. It is complicated enough getting a consensus agreement within just the Mosuo leadership; if I were to be including leaders of other minority groups, it would become outright impossible. I would basically have to set up separate organizations for every minority, and I have neither the time nor the resources to do that right now.

2) If I expanded the scope of my existing organization to include other minorities, the required funds would be much higher, but I would not expect to have much higher income from donations. So anything we sought to do would become even more difficult to accomplish.

Then, there is the more pragmatic side of it. Because of the unique aspect of the Mosuo culture, they are, quite frankly, easier to 'sell'. I have to consider this from a business perspective -- I am seeking to get people to give money to me. I have to market my organization in a way that grabs their attention, and is attractive to them. The Mosuo are, in this aspect, and almost ideal 'product'...very easy to market. If I had started an identical thread about a different minority group, but one that had less distinctively unique traits, I'll guarantee that interest and responses from people here would have been less than they have with the Mosuo.

Now, in the long term, I do have more idealistic goals that extend beyond the Mosuo. It is my hope and belief that the efforts we are making to help the Mosuo will, directly or indirectly, also benefit peoples of other minorities who live in the same area. And it is my hop and belief that, by setting up a successful model of how to do this, that others will follow my example and set up similar organizations to help those other minorities more directly.
I am curious if it's possible that their social-structure is less "structured" than we think it is. Isn't it possible that we're seeing more what we want to see than what might really be there? From what I read, they have evolved an efficient way to deal with the rigours of subsistence-living. You say there is no battle over property or children, yet there appears to be little enough to fight over! I would guess that survival tends to really focus your attention on the important stuff...
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There's always a danger of idealizing the culture, or of overgeneralizing. I try to avoid that. There are some Mosuo who are quite well off and relatively affluent; there are some Mosuo who live in the most abject poverty I've ever witnessed (I met one family of 12 where almost all suffer from congenital deformities, and they live in a cave hollowed out from a clay hill, a total of maybe ten square meters for 12 people). Most fall somewhere in between.

In regards to survival, I should perhaps stress that the 'lack of competition' thing applies within families (and, to a slightly lesser degree, within small communities). But there's far less unanimity or lack of cooperation when you start talking about distinctively different Mosuo communities. In fact, the Mosuo on the Yunnan side of Lugu Lake identify themselves more with a Tibetan heritage, while those on the Sichuan side of the lake identify themselves more with a Mongolian heritage (there are complicated historic reasons for this). There's plenty of competition between these different communities, and in situations where resources become too limited, aggression and violence can certainly take place.
Further, the claims to this uniqueness are based upon apparently limited experience. With due respect, I don't view your contact (as described within this thread) with the Mosuo as extensive. Nor are you any longer a disinterested outside observer. Nothing wrong with being an insider, but it is generally viewed as creating a bias (which is virtually impossible to avoid as a human being, IMHO).
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I agree with you absolutely. I cannot be considered an unbiased commentator; nor can I be considered the most authoritative commentator. There are anthropologists who've done far more detailed study, and over a longer period of time, than I have.

I seek, wherever possible. to get confirmation of what I state both from Mosuo leaders, and from anthropologists who have worked with them. It gets more complicated in that, as these things go, neither the Mosuo nor anthropologists are ever able to agree 100% as to any description of their culture, or their situation. So I tend to adopt the "majority rule"...whatever perspective seems to be supported by the majority of people I talk to is the perspective that I will try to present.

I'm quite sure that there are at least some things that I've said here that some anthropologists who've worked with the Mosuo would disagree with, or at least consider not entirely accurate. And I'm quite sure that there are things I've said about the Mosuo that some Mosuo would find inaccurate or wrong.

I simply try to paint the big picture; ideally, those who do become interested because of the things that I've said here will go on to do more study of their own. Look for more information on the internet. Find some of the books that have been written about the Mosuo. Or even come over and visit the Mosuo for themselves.

I really consider myself more to be doing marketing, than to be actually representing the Mosuo people. If I'm successful in making more people aware of the Mosuo, and in getting them interested, then I've accomplished one of my key tasks. If it subsequently turns out that some of the things I said were wrong, or inaccurate, I will welcome corrections; but I'm confident that at least the broad picture that I describe is close enough to reality.
The fact the Priest was off to officiate at a marriage, which tradition no anthropologists were familiar with, speaks volumes to me about the paucity of information about this culture. Further, there is a fleeting reference to an "patriarchally-structured" nobility...?
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Yes, prior to the Communist revolution, the Mosuo operated on a feudal system that had an upper class, and a lower class. The upper class was patriarchal in structure, the lower class (peasants/serfs) was matriarchal in structure. When the Communists destroyed all feudal systems in China, they essentially eliminated the 'upper class'.

And certainly, there's still tons more to learn. That's one of the major reasons I do this. There have been several times within this discussion where people asked me questions that I could not answer, which in turn gave me fodder for more discussion and learning the next time I went back.
None of the above is reason not to help the Mosuo in any way possible, and for that, Kudos to you and your Crew.

Outside of the tourism stuff, what is the next identified objective/project of the group? I did read all the stuff about goals and objectives, but I'm wondering what's happening tomorrow...?

Cheers and Best wishes
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Well, the language project has, sadly, stalled for the time being. Until we can find new people and resources, doesn't look like anything's going to be happening there.

Our major focus right now is in two areas: one is scholarships for students (very low cost, and easy to manage), and the other is setting up skill training centers for young Mosuo girls.

We have just recently formed a partnership with The Mountain Fund, a US-based NGO that focuses on development projects for people living in impoverished mountain areas around the world. The main advantage of this is that they can accept donations and grants on our behalf in the U.S. Many donors and organizations that are interested to help us have, in the past, been limited by the fact that we are registered only in China, and do not have any official non-profit status in the U.S. This partnership means that we'll be able to receive significantly greater financial support (once everything has been finalized).
 
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Wolfman, I'm sorry that I haven't kept you updated, but I've been trying to get my bosses to donate & ship those computers over to at least as far as China, but unless I arrange the shipping myself (ie, pay for it myself), they say they can't just give them to me to be shipped if/when I can get someone else to pay for it.

I'm truly sorry that I may have got your hopes up. :(
 
Lensman said:
Wolfman, I'm sorry that I haven't kept you updated, but I've been trying to get my bosses to donate & ship those computers over to at least as far as China, but unless I arrange the shipping myself (ie, pay for it myself), they say they can't just give them to me to be shipped if/when I can get someone else to pay for it.

I'm truly sorry that I may have got your hopes up. :(
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Lensman,

That's okay...I'm used to getting my hopes built up, and then having them crushed mercilessly on the rocks of despair. ;) Just kidding...seriously, I appreciate the fact that you at least made the effort, and tried to make it happen. Most people wouldn't even go that far. And you understand a little better now some of the difficulties that I face, as well...its easy getting a good idea, but far more difficult bringing it to fruition.

Again, my thanks and my gratitude for your efforts!
 
And an update for anyone who may not have heard about this...on June 5, I will be giving a speech at the World Humanist Congress in Washington, D.C., to talk about my work with the Mosuo! This will be a really great opportunity to let a lot more people know about the Mosuo, and hopefully to get some of them involved.
 
Good luck at the conference, Wolfie. That's great news. I'm sure your speech will be as rational and compelling as your posts have been in this thread, if not more. I wish I could be there!

Kind regards,
Orph.
 
It's been quite some time since I made a post here (more than three years), so a quick update with some fairly exciting news.

The Mosuo, as I explained earlier in this post, are classified by the Chinese gov't as being part of another ethnic minority group, the Naxi, despite the fact they have very distinctively different languages, cultures, etc. The reasons for this were discussed earlier, but one of our organization's goals has been to try to get them officially recognized as a separate minority group.

This is important because the Chinese gov't provides funding for all of China's recognized minorities -- funding for education, health care, cultural preservation, etc. However, in the case of the Mosuo, no money is given to them...it is given to the Naxi. But the Naxi don't consider the Mosuo to be part of their minority group, so very little of it gets passed on to the Mosuo. If the Mosuo are recognized officially as a separate minority, then they will receive such funding directly.

We have, for the first time, been able to submit a legal petition to the gov't to have the Mosuo recognized as a distinct minority group in China. Such past submissions were simply rejected out of hand, this is the first time one has been accepted for consideration.

That doesn't mean it will succeed (it probably won't, I'd give it a less than 5% chance of being successful). There are a number of other groups in China that, like the Mosuo, feel they should be considered as separate minority groups. The moment the gov't demonstrates willingness to change the status of one group, they're gonna' face pressure from dozens of others to do likewise. It'd be opening a can of worms that the gov't doesn't want to deal with.

But...it is at least a big step forward that they've accepted the paperwork. It demonstrates that we at least have gained their attention, and that somewhere in the inner corridors of power, there is discussion taking place on this issue. It'll probably take another few decades before we actually get the changes we're looking for, but at least we've started (very tentatively) to move forward in that direction.
 
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