Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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Can someone recap the info about the actor that Gimlin's Indian Tracker guide was supposedly modeled after? i.e. the name of the Movie, and the actor's name? I can't remember the name or I'd search for it.

You might have this switched around. After the PGF, Ron Olson did a film production of some "Bigfoot hunters" that used an Indian character very much like Gimlin in wig. This was in 1975, and the film was called "Sasquatch, The Legend of Bigfoot". This Indian was named Tekka Blackhawk or Techa Blackhawk.

You can watch a campy trailer for this film here. You can see the Indian guy (looks just like Gimlin in the wig) at 0:22.

Yeah, they used a costumed Bigfoot in the film. It looks very fakey. I guess you could do that and still promote the PGF as real. Well, that's what Olson was doing.
 
Sure, Astro...I readily admit that I don't know that Bigfoot exists...because we don't have proof that Bigfoot exists.

Isn't that logical?

However, we are talking about evidence and probabilities. We don't have actual proof that the event you described by astronomers is what they claim it is but they have enough convincing evidence to support their conclusion. If you ask them, they would state they don't know for sure but that is what the evidence directs them to conclude.

What you are implying by your statement is that the evidence is inadequate to conclude anything. As I stated before, the evidence for the probability of there being an actual bigfoot is zero or so low it is hard to measure.
That is over forty years of groping about in the woods by all sorts of specialists and amateurs. One would think, that something good would have come from all that work. The lack of anything conclusive says a lot for the side that thinks bigfoot is a real creature.

When it comes down to it, it all comes back to the PGF, which is an inconclusive piece of evidence. It is difficult to prove it a hoax and the only way to conclude the debate is to provide conclusive evidence that bigfoot exists (which is my original argument you did not like). Therefore, I suggest all the proponents to revise their methods and come up with better methods if they want to prove their side of the argument. Until then, the probable answer to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit.
 
Dear Big Foot,

Your worries are over. Besides the fact that I have figured out a way how we can communicate with the dead over the Internet. I also believe my idea will help us find you as well.

Dear Big Foot,

Have you ever seen an out of body afterlife before when they are on a mission to make life better?

Don't worry, when the time is right, they will find you.

Some say my idea is so easy that a cave man could do it. I don't know if that is the case or not, but the machine I will be using. Was first used by some of your relatives I think. They sure did look a lot like you, just smaller.

So if they can communicate with their thoughts, then you should be able as well. Just in case we don't find you before you die of natural causes as well.

If you can find a way to make my idea a reality Big Foot. There will be a place in my Cabinet for you. You have my word on that, just say the word and we can make it happen.

This is not spam, it is reality follow through.

Where I come from, if they continue to lose the ball, you give it to somebody else who can make a difference.

I offer my services to this topic or any one else, that feels there is a problem needs fixing, not just talked about. A place where things happen the right way, because people care.


You decide and let me know, until then I will keep my day job.



I have taken it to the White House,

http://maps.google.com/?cid=10419684663494331245&dtab=2&author=0c6dd0f33fae489d


What do you think America?
 
Referenceing Kitakaze post #12947

"I don't need to tell Munns that. He's already stated himself that all the conclusions he came to can be attributed to a man in a suit."



Issue Status

For clarity, here's my appraisal of status on the suit issues I'm studying, based on what I have studied so far. A "Yes" means that the technology of the time could definitely have accomplished what is seen on the film. An "undecided" means there are questions not yet resolved, and further study and experiments are justified to try to resolve the questions to a higher degree of certainty.

For various issues of the figure in the PG Film, with regard to whether or not they could have been done with 1967 suit technology:

1. Feet and whitish color on them? Yes
2. Breasts (including any perceived motion)? Yes
3. Human fitting Inside ? Generally yes, but knees not verified as aligning yet.


4. Fur surface capable of the anatomical motions of walking and head turning, with no apparent cloth fold artifacts. Undecided at present

5. Shifts of light/dark patterns (which may be attributed to either just fur reflective character, or underlying substance motion dynamics, such as padding or muscles) on body replicated by a furcloth suit in walking motion. Undecided

6. Capacity to hide suit tailoring and closure seams under film grain resolution analysis. Undecided
 
You might have this switched around. After the PGF, Ron Olson did a film production of some "Bigfoot hunters" that used an Indian character very much like Gimlin in wig. This was in 1975, and the film was called "Sasquatch, The Legend of Bigfoot". This Indian was named Tekka Blackhawk or Techa Blackhawk.

You can watch a campy trailer for this film here. You can see the Indian guy (looks just like Gimlin in the wig) at 0:22.

Yeah, they used a costumed Bigfoot in the film. It looks very fakey. I guess you could do that and still promote the PGF as real. Well, that's what Olson was doing.


DREW and WILLIAM PARCHER - In 1969 is when FRANK HANSEN admitted to a newspaper that he'd FAKED his Minnesota Iceman (a hot melt sculpt made by Howard Ball under the direction of John Chambers after Hansen had called DON POST STUDIO and talked to Vern Langdon regarding how to go about getting himself one of those 'frozen cavemen deals').

According to AL DEATLEY this is when he decided to turn over his four-walling money-maker to RON OLSON (for big cash, of course). Patterson and Olson became partners at this point and set about to make movies on Bigfoot. Some of the early interviews from the first Patterson/Olson endeavor (Fred Beck/Janos Prohaska/Albert Ostman) later was re-used in another Olson documentary that was edited into the ROBERT MORGAN adventure of the summer of '74.

Essentially Patterson's dream was to make movies with Merritt. After failing at making commercials together, Merritt copied CORRIGANVILLE and they began work on a film about cowboys being led by an old miner and a wise Indian tracker on a hunt for Bigfoot. This was a pseudo-documentary. No cowboys ever chased Bigfoot with dogs in any of the legends but this is what Patterson was filming when he was sued for trespassing on a local ranchers land.

The storyline called for Patterson, his Indian guide (Gimlin in a wig) and the cowboys to recall in flashbacks the stories of Fred Beck and others as they tracked the beast on horseback. Later,after Patterson died, Olson actually made a version of this.

In 1975 Dahinden and Gimlin got involved in lawsuits against Olson, DeAtley, Mrs. Patterson and ALL of the various film companies that Roger had sold THE SAME RIGHTS to. DeAtley and Mrs. Patterson were forced by the court to pay RETROACTIVELY monies owed to Gimlin and Dahinden (since Dahinden had shrewdly bought out the original rights owned by Vilma Radford who had funded the costume for the original film).

Never at any time did the question of whether the film showed a "real Sasquatch" ever get raised by anyone. Only money was at issue. To this date Mrs. Patterson refuses to comment on whether the film is real or not. DeAtley says there is no such thing as Bigfoot. Heironimus has taken numerous lie detector tests from various sources and passed them all. Gimlin refuses to do this and talks to Bigfooters instead, telling them what they want to hear.

BILL MUNNS -- I spoke to BOB BURNS about that 'water bag' comment so often quoted. That was just something CHARLIE GEMORA had told him about making a fluid body part (stomach, breasts, etc) He merely wondered if that might have been used in the suit IF the breasts were supposed to be moving.

Like KEN PETERSON (an exec in charge of artists drawing Mickey Mouse at Disney who also had never been involved in making creature suits) these quotes are usually taken out of context. Any compliment or kind word may be turned into a confirmation by an "expert" that Patty must be real. You'll find yourself the victim of this before too long.

Once gain for everyone regarding my former co-worker JOHN VULICH and the BBC (please copy and repeat so people get it through their heads for once) ----

Often you'll find out that things quoted by Bigfooters are revised to fit their agenda. EXAMPLE: Never did anyone from JOHN VULICH and OPTIC NERVE say they were "trying to recreate the PG suit". Quite the opposite.

They loaned a red ape suit that was hanging up in their studio to the producer so that he could show how any hairy suit might look IF filmed using the same camera and method as Patterson. That was the producer's idea. No one paid them to recreate anything. No one ever expected that people would think creature fx artists thought the PG film showed a red ape with black hand-like feet. It's almost too stupid to consider - yet this is what is promoted on the Internet.

Below is the guy wearing the red ape suit. He's talking about how foam pads move. Behind him is a werewolf suit we used on BUFFY. It's more like the PG film so why not use it with an ape head? Because they gave the audience too much credit for intelligence, that's why.

The still photo posted on BFRO and elsewhere is not even the demonstration from Roger's CAMERA POV. Below is that demo. The producer was hoping to show how close Roger was and how he felt the camera was deliberately shaken to obscure details that you can see in the clear still images from the show.

That dark shaking image is from the Roger POV cam. The producer used a suit that DIDN'T resemble Patty on purpose in order to show how ridiculous it was. Yet people didn't get it. He had no idea how attached people were to this thing or the lengths they were willing to go to in order to declare it real.

SO HERE COMES SOME MORE EXPLAINING FOR THOSE INTERESTED...


This is a latex skin kneecap. It's glued to fabric. The fabric is sewn and glued over a foam body suit (the yellow bit you can see at the very bottom). If you continue adding latex skin and add shiny hair you'll get yourself a decent Bigfoot.

This is an old creature suit in the process of being put together many years ago. Like many of the monster suits used on Lost in Space it is based on a two section body. At the groin area the top snaps down - just as it did with Patty.

The thigh pad in the middle is what I wrapped the faux fur around in that previous hair animation. This was the first thing I ever did and I had not yet made the "hamstring line" that I later learned was commonly used by Wah Chang and which can be seen on "Patty".

The suit at the top was just some rubber sheets a glued together and painted in imitation of a picture I saw of Patty. The foot at the bottom was the very first foot I ever made. I made it by pressing a shape into Plaster-of Paris (same as used by Patterson) and then pouring bathroom caulk into that. I was imitating the Patterson print shown next to it.

The female bodybuilder on the LEFT shows excellent leg and buttocks development. However, I feel that if I can find the one who has developed the same lines as the bodybuilder on the RIGHT I will then be able to prove that Patty's muscle development is real and not simply a man-inna-suit. Do you know of any?



While the female bodybuilder can't recreate "Patty lines" a guy with foam pads can. This is simply reality. To try to pretend that the suit used for Patty is realistic after seeing this is to delude oneself. How this ability to delude oneself can go on is what I am interested in.


While I'll admit that when I wear rubber feet I make mid-tarsal breaks like the one seen below... that shouldn't mean that Patterson would ever use such a device. We all know cowboys and construction crews are not capable of such trickery.


Above is from JANOS. Below RIGHT is a mold from WAH CHANG. Below LEFT is a 1958 Bigfoot casting.


Below RIGHT is from Bluff Creek 1967. Below LEFT is from Dfoot. It's the mold of the foot I was wearing in the walking animation.


Molds, foam, movable jaws and muscles... all real and constantly in use since the late 1920's. So far NO ONE has ever studied a real Bigfoot. But I can promise you they have drawn cartoon bones based on fake footprints from both rubber and wooden feet. That is real.

When we finally do have a Sas foot to study we may be surprised at the lack of sideways dermals, or double-balled feet, or tiny pea toes. We may have to reject the Sasquatch foot because it doesn't fit Dr. Meldrum's cartoon. The real Sasquatch (if it exists or existed) isn't Patty or any of the other hoaxes.
 
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That picture looks like the ink blots that shrinks make you interpret.
Of course not! Check my scientific interpretation!
colossalfoot_interpreted.jpg


Now, seriously, interpreting ink blots or overblown PGF frames are very similar tasks...
 
Dfoot:

"BILL MUNNS -- I spoke to BOB BURNS about that 'water bag' comment so often quoted. That was just something CHARLIE GEMORA had told him about making a fluid body part (stomach, breasts, etc) He merely wondered if that might have been used in the suit IF the breasts were supposed to be moving. "

Thanks for contributing the info from Bob Burns.

Bill
 
You might have this switched around. After the PGF, Ron Olson did a film production of some "Bigfoot hunters" that used an Indian character very much like Gimlin in wig. This was in 1975, and the film was called "Sasquatch, The Legend of Bigfoot". This Indian was named Tekka Blackhawk or Techa Blackhawk.

You can watch a campy trailer for this film here. You can see the Indian guy (looks just like Gimlin in the wig) at 0:22.

Yeah, they used a costumed Bigfoot in the film. It looks very fakey. I guess you could do that and still promote the PGF as real. Well, that's what Olson was doing.

I saw that film in the movies in 1978. Wasn't a good film rather dumb.
 
However, we are talking about evidence and probabilities. We don't have actual proof that the event you described by astronomers is what they claim it is but they have enough convincing evidence to support their conclusion.

If you ask them, they would state they don't know for sure but that is what the evidence directs them to conclude.


The scientists haven't concluded anything as a definite.
When evidence is inconclusive...that is, not at the level of proof, then there is no definite conclusion which can be reached. (Other than a definite "maybe".;) )

Here is the statement from that article again....

UCLA astronomers have discovered evidence that planet formation may have occurred or may be occurring around the binary system sigma Herculis.

What has been "concluded"?
The scientists have only stated that planets may be forming".


Astro wrote:
What you are implying by your statement is that the evidence is inadequate to conclude anything.


We're only discussing evidence which does NOT rise to the level of proof....and is therefore inconclusive.

Here again is my first statement to you, in this debate...

On a discussion board...or thread, in this case...Proof is not needed in order for evidence to be discussed, analysed, and weighed.

"Proof is not needed". :)

Why, in almost all of your posts, do you keep refering to evidence in terms of "proof", anyway?? I don't get that....we're not talking about 'proof'.


Astro wrote:
As I stated before, the evidence for the probability of there being an actual bigfoot is zero or so low it is hard to measure.

That is your opinion, Astro. You're certainly entitled to it...but it's meaningless to the general public if you don't support it with evidence.

Until then, the probable answer to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit.


Again, just your opinion.
 
Why, in almost all of your posts, do you keep refering to evidence in terms of "proof", anyway?? I don't get that....we're not talking about 'proof'.

We are talking about evidence. You want to discuss evidence ad infinitum that proves nothing. This seems to be a pointless exercise other than wasting a lot of time. If that is your goal, have at it. However, real evidence is used to help prove something as a fact. Maybe you should take up basket weaving. It certainly would be more productive

That is your opinion, Astro. You're certainly entitled to it...but it's meaningless to the general public if you don't support it with evidence.

The lack of quality evidence is what forms that conclusion. If you can present evidence that has quality to refute that conclusion, feel free to do so. Otherwise, I feel confident in stating that forty years from now that the situation will probably be the same.

BTW, Science does not care what the general public thinks. Only pseudo-science appeals to the uninformed masses for a verdict.
 
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Can someone recap the info about the actor that Gimlin's Indian Tracker guide was supposedly modeled after? i.e. the name of the Movie, and the actor's name? I can't remember the name or I'd search for it.

Joe Morello as Techka Blackhawk apparently.
 
Astrophotographer wrote:
We are talking about evidence. You want to discuss evidence ad infinitum that proves nothing. This seems to be a pointless exercise other than wasting a lot of time.


That statement of yours, Astro....in bold....sums up PERFECTLY the mentality of the skeptics on this forum. Thank you very much for saying it! :)

Here's a little info for you, and the rest of the gang here....

There are 2 things that we don't have, with regards to Bigfoot:

1) Proof.

2) Nothing. (In other words....there is some evidence...such as: Eyewitness testimonies, footprints, video and audio recordings, hair samples, cultural legends, fossil evidence-Giganto., etc.)

In-between nothing and proof, there is something called "evidence".
"Evidence" simply indicates 'probabilities', 'chances', 'odds' of something being true....and that is the ONE thing that we do have...a chance, some degree of probability of Bigfoot's existence...in-between absolute zero, and certainty.

The evidence hasn't, at this point in time, risen to the level of proof...yet it certainly is something more than "nothing".

The purpose of any Bigfoot thread, on any discussion board, is to discuss, analyse, and weigh the evidence for Bigfoot....because that is exactly what we do have.

Yet all that the skeptics on this board seem interested in doing is saying ONE thing....over and over again....."Where's the proof, got a body?" :rolleyes:

Skeptics here might just as well be called "Robo-skeptics", and numbered, from 1-100.
(Personally...I'd nominate kitakaze for the high honor of being Robo-skeptic #1. )


If that is your goal, have at it. However, real evidence is used to help prove something as a fact. Maybe you should take up basket weaving. It certainly would be more productive


There you go again, Robo-skeptic #27....looking for proof! ;)

When does someone KNOW that they actually have a piece of real, quality evidence in their hand, Astro? When it's proven to be from a real Bigfoot?

If that's all you've come to this board looking for.....proof....then you're wasting your time, my friend. When proof of Bigfoot's existence is brough-in, you'll hear about it on your local news...I promise you!

Till then...the only thing that can be done on these boards is to intelligently and carefully, analyse and weigh all the pieces of evidence that do exist...to try to determine what the true likelihood of this creature's existence is. :)
 
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2) Nothing. (In other words....there is some evidence...such as: Eyewitness testimonies, footprints, video and audio recordings, hair samples, cultural legends, fossil evidence-Giganto., etc.)

None of that can be connected to an actual sasquatch, though.
None of it can even be matched to a theoretical sasquatch, since there's no agreement on what a sasquatch actually is, or even on a basic thing like how many toes it has.
So what is it really worth?

You don't even know what giganto feet looked like, for example.

You really don't have any evidence at all when what is presented is looked at objectively.

You believe you have evidence, but you actually you don't.

How has any of the evidence you list been matched to an actual sasquatch?

In fact, you cannot really even tell me you have a sasquatch footprint because you have no standard to show that a given footprint matches the type. There's no type.
 
It's the same as the guy saying he has debris from an alien spacecraft. The debris could be from an aluminum smelting mill, or he could be right.

Is the debris evidence of alien spacecraft?

Is the debris evidence that the guy knows a mill worker?

Which is more likely?

Is a scientist going to accept as factual that the debris is evidence of alien spacecraft?

None of the evidence provided for bigfoot can be shown to be related to bigfoot, and all of the evidence provided for bigfoot could be evidence of something other than bigfoot, with "other than bigfoot" being more likely.

So why would any scientist think there is any evidence to support bigfoot?
 
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There are 2 things that we don't have, with regards to Bigfoot:

1) Proof.

2) Nothing. (In other words....there is some evidence...such as: Eyewitness testimonies, footprints, video and audio recordings, hair samples, cultural legends, fossil evidence-Giganto., etc.)

A whole lot of nothing is still nothing. The quality of the evidence you just stated is poor and carries little or no weight. If you are trying to link the fossil record to today you might as well say their is evidence of a small dinosaur roaming the northwest as well.

In-between nothing and proof, there is something called "evidence".
"Evidence" simply indicates 'probabilities', 'chances', 'odds' of something being true....and that is the ONE thing that we do have...a chance, some degree of probability of Bigfoot's existence...in-between absolute zero, and certainty.

The evidence hasn't, at this point in time, risen to the level of proof...yet it certainly is something more than "nothing".

Funny, I thought you felt that you don't know if bigfoot exists but now you state you think there might be something more than nothing. After forty plus years, what has all this "evidence" gotten bigfoot research. Nowhere, that is where. Do you scientists/zoologists/anthropologists stumbling over each other to find bigfoot? No, and the reason is the evidence is not good at all. Bigfoot research is spinning its wheels because there is little, if any, good high quality evidence to indicate bigfoot is real. Again, the evidence indicates the probability of bigfoot = 0 or so low that it can not be measured/quantified.

The purpose of any Bigfoot thread, on any discussion board, is to discuss, analyse, and weigh the evidence for Bigfoot....because that is exactly what we do have.

Yet all that the skeptics on this board seem interested in doing is saying ONE thing....over and over again....."Where's the proof, got a body?"

The purpose of this thread is to discuss one bit of evidence in particular and that is the PGF. I have stated over and over again, this evidence is subjective and can not be proven either way since each side has presented expert opinion that it is a man in a suit or not a man in a suit (AKA bigfoot). You have asked for the suit or an accurate recreation of the event in question but cry "foul" when anyone asks for a body. I already have stated that I doubt that any recreation or suit will satisfy you or other bigfoot proponents because there will always be something you will find to state that it is not accurate enough. This leaves only one way to resolve the PGF question and that is to produce concrete evidence that proves (or indicates to a high probability) bigfoot exists (i.e a body, a skeleton, etc.). Until that evidence is presented, the most likely solution is a man in a suit.


When does someone KNOW that they actually have a piece of real, quality evidence in their hand, Astro? When it's proven to be from a real Bigfoot?

It will be high quality evidence when the consensus of the experts (scientists and others) can all agree to that evidence as being testable and verifiable.

If that's all you've come to this board looking for.....proof....then you're wasting your time, my friend. When proof of Bigfoot's existence is brough-in, you'll hear about it on your local news...I promise you!

I am not holding my breath on that one and I suggest you do not either. I am not wasting my time. It is bigfoot research and those that suggest it is some sort of scientific endeavor that are wasting their time. It is stagnant research. No progress in forty plus years and none likely in the future. To me that says it all.

Till then...the only thing that can be done on these boards is to intelligently and carefully, analyse and weigh all the pieces of evidence that do exist...to try to determine what the true likelihood of this creature's existence is. :)

Hmmm...from what I understand you already "believe" the creature exists based more on wishful thinking than a "intelligent and careful analysis" of the evidence to date. The collective weight of a whole lot of nothing is still nothing.
 
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Does anyone else want a different thread regarding 'Bigfoot-Levels of Evidence' or something like that? Maybe this falls into the PGF discussion, but it seems that it is a philosophical/emotional argument regarding personal standards, and not regarding the PGF in itself.
 
Astro wroto:
A whole lot of nothing is still nothing.

LTC8K6 wrote:
You really don't have any evidence at all when what is presented is looked at objectively.

You believe you have evidence, but you actually you don't.


Thanks, guys!...or, should I say...Robo-Skeptic #27 and Robo-Skeptic #8006?! :)

The model JR-1 Robo-skeptic will always say that the evidence for Bigfoot is "nothing"....and will keep repeating this until it's batteries are completely drained. :D
 
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