Nuclear Strong Force is a Fiction

You impose the Coulomb repulsion into an equation when there is no experimental data that substantiates belief in the existence of such a repulsion between elementary charges.

You really better send this earth-shattering information to the scientists at the Large Hardon Collider. They are about to collide beams of elementary charges (protons) together. They are going to be surprised when there is no Coulomb repulsion between these elementary charges. I guess they are going to waste billions of dollars just because there is no experimental data. :rolleyes:

Scientists have been exploring the atomic nucleus by colliding them with "elementary charges" since the experiments of Rutherford in 1909 (admittedly using alpha particles but these are just 4 elementary charges). They have always observed Coulomb repulsion.
 
Clean up your act and behave with more restraint and less arrogance or I'll put your posts on the ignore list. I had hoped to find more restraint and better manners here than I can find on the unmoderated usenet newsgroups. I'm becoming quickly aware that this Randi website is nothing more than a public tiolet that fellows like you use to piss all over people who unwarirly walk in hoping to find a place to air new ideas sans a caustic environment.
One paragraph later:

Your profound ignorance about the emergence of a belief in a 'strong nuclear force' isn't an excuse nor does it constitute an authority. While I may have been mistaken about you having the sense or intellect to figure out that the 'strong force' is a fiction... don't suppose that your ignorance runs over like a boiling pot to drown out insight in other people. I agree you can't do it. But a person of intelligence can and when they know the facts will do exactly that.. which is to recognize the 'strong force' as an intellectual fiction contrived because scientists lacked the insight and careful attention to detail that would have allowed them to unify physics nine decades ago.

And note the "restraint and better manners" Charles shows on this Usenet group: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sc...3a92fe1a3b0/a32e3f843d70b3f4#a32e3f843d70b3f4

How very sad. Please get help, Charles.
 
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You really better send this earth-shattering information to the scientists at the Large Hardon Collider. They are about to collide beams of elementary charges (protons) together. They are going to be surprised when there is no Coulomb repulsion between these elementary charges. I guess they are going to waste billions of dollars just because there is no experimental data. :rolleyes:

Scientists have been exploring the atomic nucleus by colliding them with "elementary charges" since the experiments of Rutherford in 1909 (admittedly using alpha particles but these are just 4 elementary charges). They have always observed Coulomb repulsion.

To be fair to DH, he was talking about the case where charges are at rest relative to one another. This doesn't happen in the LHC.

However, I'm left wondering exactly what sort of Coulomb-like potential I measured between two static charges as an undergraduate, if it wasn't the Coulomb force.
 
History tells us that lots of other people who personally thought they possessed the keys to the universe, and thus were intellectually above those they considered fools, have cut loose with tirades and abuse when the fools started asking questions and pointing out the patently obvious flaws in their crazed conjectures. The inability to understand, or more likely the unwillingness to accept, that they may, just possibly, be wrong did not make their conjectures any more valid, nor the reviled fools more foolish. Interestingly, far more often than not, the fools were right...

In short, there's none so blind as those who will not see.

DH, get help.
 
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I did a little web surfing:

http://www.bautforum.com/archive/index.php/t-13678.html

Grand Vizier11-October-2004, 10:07 AM
....
Thank you muchly for your self-sacrifice. It sounds very much like New Age 'business as usual'. Anyway, yes, a quest is a fine thing, so I went looking for a chap called Charles Cagle who was (and still is probably) a total pest on Usenet. Charles not only peddles gobbledegook about the Sun and everything being powered by 'electrodynamic toroids' and the like, he is also a proponent of the expanding earth theory as a way of explaining plate tectonics. (Matter is being produced at the centre of the Earth, you see, and tectonic plates are pullled apart as the Earth grows. Go figure.)

Anyway, in the process found this fascinating page, which I unfortunately have to do a couple of spoilers on:

Fulton's Fringe Science Quiz (http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~ckank/fringe/)

Haven't played it properly, but doubt I can get more than about 25% right.

Yep, Charles is there:

Then to:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.astro.amateur/msg/3e88000b5915dd85
and this led me to:
http://www.singtech.com/

This is the "fusion powered razor" I guess. There is also a lunchbox version:


Seems like the same guy.
 
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There you are with your signature 'Uh. no.' Written stuttering to kick off your condescension?

That's not a stutter. A stutter would be "Uh uh uh uh... n-n-n-no."

That's amazing that you should develop such a habit and show it here in the blindness of your exceedingly profound and yet correctable ignorance about the nature of Ball Lightning. Ball lightning is a mass of burning silicate nanoparticles...????!!!

Yes.
"Production of Ball-Lightning-Like Luminous Balls by Electrical Discharges in Silicon", Phys. Rev. Lett. 98, 048501 (2007)

"Evidence for Nanoparticles in Microwave-Generated Fireballs Observed by Synchrotron X-Ray Scattering", Phys. Rev. Lett. 100, 065001 (2008)

Obviously, you've not spent much time really studying the phenomenon. I've spent 35 years studying it not only through eyewitness reports but also by creating it and filming it in the lab via high current high voltage discharge experiments.

So have the people I linked to above. Got a peer-reviewed journal article to back up your picture of what's going on?

Pace Van de Vender (sp?) who until about 2 years ago was head of Los Alamos Fusion projects... has also been keenly interested in this powerful phenomenon and sent me an 1858 eyewitness report from a newpaper published in Ireland of a two foot diameter ball that emerged out of a violent thundercloud... It, moving about the pace a man walks, plowed into the ground and cut a trench; and in the process excavated about 200 cubic yards of wet peat in less than 20 minutes! That is over 200 tons of wet peat moved in under 20 minutes and you would dismiss this as a slowly burning mass of silicate nanoparticles?

I would dismiss this as an unreliable eyewitness report from 150 years ago with no physical evidence to back it up. Perhaps there was a bit too much :alc: involved, perhaps it was all a joke, don't know, don't care. But what it is not is actual evidence.

These things have been written about since the time of Aristotle

So have :medusa: and :broomstic and :ghost: and :gnome: and :cyclops: and :fairy: and :alien:. Well, OK, that last one is more recent, but it's largely just a replacement for the earlier ones. Do you believe every account you read?

As for your confession of being a jerk...I certainly agree that you are.. but how does that benefit you, either to confess or to continue to behave in that manner?

It benefits me by keeping my blood pressure low. I have limited patience for your brand of insanity.

Why don't you simply make an effort to be a nicer person?

Because I'm not. And you're not worth the effort to try.

Your arrogance blinds you, destroys potential friendships, and cuts off possible sources of information about the universe.

I doubt it. You see, I don't think there was ever a chance you and I were going to be friends. And I'm quite capable of being friendly, just not with people who are so delusional about these sorts of things. Call it a personal failing on my part if you wish, I don't really care, because your opinion of me personally is of no consequence. I don't care if you don't like me, because I don't like you.

I see that few people here really seem to get what I have been proposing. I'm suggesting that the data that we presently possess in the world is sufficient information to unify electromagnetism and gravity

And yet, you cannot write equations which show what such a unified theory looks like.

People believe in an 'electrostatic' field that they ideate as emerging from and surrounding a charged particle and yet don't really have an appropriate conception of the nature of the 'field' of a charged particle, nor an appropriate conception of the origin of charge itself. The problem is that they think that they do. They think that there will be a Coulombic repulsion between two like charged fundamental particles that are at rest with respect to each other and yet there isn't any data in existence to confirm that assumption.

Not so. Chemical bonding energies of hydrogen molecules involve exactly such a repulsion between the two protons. So your fundamental assumption is completely wrong, and none of your ideas following that make any sense. Figure out a way to accurately predict the bonding energies of hydrogen molecules using the assumption that the protons don't repel, and we'll talk.

They do their calculations with that repusion figured right into their equations and so think that two charged particles that have parallel and equal magnitude velocity vectors will still experience Coulombic repulsion.

They do. Your analogy with the Lorentz force on parallel currents doesn't work, because if all you've got is currents, then the Coulomb repulsion is screened because of the presence of both kinds of charge carriers. There is definitely an attractive Lorentz force for co-moving like charges, but it is always smaller than the Coulomb repulsion. I've done the calculations. And the only way those calculations are wrong is if either Maxwell's equations are wrong or relativity is wrong. So which is it?

So, I presented this question to him and he finally admitted that what I was proposing was a very interesting thing. He was a reasonable man because he didn't care what the textbooks were saying.. or what they assumed but rather what data there was to back up such assumptions and finally he admitted that he knew of no such data that substantiated the majority opinion on this subject.

I can't quite tell if this is an argument from authority, or an argument from lack of authority. In any case, I have no particular reason to believe your account of this encounter, or to think that he was trying to do anything other than get some loony to leave him alone.

All I'm asking is that you display a little manners and grace and hold your peace if you don't really know for sure...

But I do know for sure. I know for quite certain that you're wrong.

Even in the operation of a fusion weapon I can use the exact same arguments to show that our concept of the fusion process and conditions that lead to fusion is wrong.

Your arguments are nonsensical. Let's see some calculations.

The weapons work and who can argue with such success...but the reality is that lots of technology can work and work very well and the operational principles behind how it works may be quite different that the reigning belief system.

That's conceivable. Problem is, we didn't get them to work by simple trial and error. So we've got no real reason to think that our current models are wrong, and YOUR model (such as it is) has yet to produce any actual calculations. So why should we abandon a successful, quantitative model for fusion with one which has not produced any testable predictions? And you think I'm arrogant. I'm not telling an entire class of highly successful people to throw out all their accomplishments and jump on to some "theory" that has not produced a single calculation.

Superconduction is real...but how it works is subject to debate. The BCS theory reigned for years and now has been openly scoffed at by Nobelist Phillip Anderson who has called it "a catalog of failures." Yet you'll still find people teaching that crap because Bardeen, Cooper and Schreiffer won the Nobel prize for it.

I'm afraid you merely demonstrate your cluelessness. BCS theory doesn't work for high temperature superconductors. But it's been, and remains, a phenomenal success for conventional superconductors like elemental lead.

Your response is so arrogant and uninformed ... Entropy is about the increase of disorder and Negentropy is about the increase of order.

Which means that they're just the negatives of each other.

Lower energy states are more ordered...

Often but not always. A paramagnet in a magnetic field is a cannonical example of a case where the highest energy state has very low entropy. The entropy depends upon the number of accessible microstates. But if you're talking about a classical field, there's no degenerate microstates accessible. There's only one state, it's got zero entropy, and changing the energy doesn't change anything.

And as a side note... I never said cancelled each other out.

Then define "null point", because otherwise you just appear to be making up terminology, which anyone can do.

When you consider that the field of a charged particle is a continuous structure and then superimpose an opposite charge in the same space ...running the numbers you get zero charge... and that is just the problem with letting numbers take the place of the actual physics and that is why you cannot unify electromagnetism and gravity using your present intellectual processes and misconceptions of the nature of charge and the nature of gravity.

So are you trying to say the equations are wrong? Where's the evidence? What equations should they be replaced with? Where are the quantitative predictions from such replacement equations?

Or are you contending that physics shouldn't be a mathematical science to begin with?

I want to openly declare this so that anyone reading this can get a good laugh at your expense; at least as good of a laugh as I have gotten.

Yeah, um... look around. I'm not the one everyone's laughing at.

There is the classic example of the problem of doing physics with a pencil or a calculator or computer because you replace fields with numbers and then forget about the actual physics...

So you're claiming that fields cannot be quantified or expressed mathematically? Or that they do not obey mathematical relationships?

Fortunately, it seems that you have no moral compass

That's funny, I thought we were talking about physics, not morality.

Clean up your act and behave with more restraint and less arrogance or I'll put your posts on the ignore list.

Boo friggin hoo. I don't consider that a threat, so go ahead and ignore me if you like. I think it will become clear to everyone that the real reason you are doing so is because you have no answer to my challenges.

I had hoped to find more restraint and better manners here than I can find on the unmoderated usenet newsgroups.

My initial responses were more restrained. When it became obvious that you are not interested in actually examining the facts, I stopped bothering. I do not regret that decision.

And you really haven't seen me be rude. This is nothing. I've only been truly rude to one person on this board, and it wasn't over a matter of physics.
 
I see that few people here really seem to get what I have been proposing.

That's because you're just another delusional crackpot proposing counterfactual nonsense.

You follow the same old pattern I've seen time and time again in physics cranks... it's as if you all suffer from a rather specific type of mental illness.

I recommend you seek medical help.
 
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Neutrons, therefore, are gravitational source particles while neither electrons nor protons can be (individually). Protons will fall towards the low energy state location provided by a neutron and the time rate gradient structure of a neutron then produces a charge separation effect that keeps electrons out of area of the nucleus.


You seem to be suggesting that protons and neutrons are very different. There is plenty of evidence that suggests, if you remove Coulomb effects, this is not the case. Check out the energy levels of mirror or isobaric analogue nuclei on the N=Z line of the Segre chart if you don't believe me. I would link to some but I can't as this is only my second post.
 
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To be fair to DH, he was talking about the case where charges are at rest relative to one another. This doesn't happen in the LHC.
He is talking about his assumption that protons in a nucleus are "nearly at rest" and then does pseudo-science to get rid of the Coulomb force so that the strong nuclear force is not needed. He has yet to produce any proof that these protons are "nearly at rest" nor how close they are to rest.
I can think of a possible experiment to test his hypothesis at the Large Hadron Collider. Set up 2 proton beams with the same energy and rotating in the same direction. Now merge the beams. In their reference frame the protons are at rest. If Coulomb repulsion does not exist when protons are at rest then we should see signs that nuclei have been created.
 
Absolutely. As explained in the book In Search of Schrodinger's Cat, which I read about 20 years ago, it's not just a limitation of our measurement, it's that nature itself can't decide on a specific position and momentum for each particle.

Oh wow! A real 'scientific' statement... if there ever was one... :p You cannot get much more null content than that... you seriously ought to restrict yourself from posting for about 5 years..
 
Oh wow! A real 'scientific' statement... if there ever was one... :p You cannot get much more null content than that... you seriously ought to restrict yourself from posting for about 5 years..
DH - also a "real 'scientific' statement" :p from you! I guess we will not be seeing anything from you for the next 5 years :rolleyes:.

Now please prove that protons are at rest (your original post) or "nearly at rest" (later posts) in the nucleus.
A definition of "nearly at rest" would be a good place to start.
 
You seem to be suggesting that protons and neutrons are very different. There is plenty of evidence that suggests, if you remove Coulomb effects, this is not the case. Check out the energy levels of mirror or isobaric analogue nuclei on the N=Z line of the Segre chart if you don't believe me. I would link to some but I can't as this is only my second post.

Of course, they are different. A neutron is a time rate gradient structure precisely because it is a unit charge and the unit charge conjugate in physical superposition, therefore it is a gravitational source; and so is able to keep protons overlapping in the same momentum space. Protons cannot stay stuck together otherwise ;... though there is no reason why spin up spin down protons couldn't form an analog to Cooper Pairs if given the right conditions... However, those right conditions would have to be down near the gravitational terminus loop of a large standing wave flux loop boson such as are at the cores of stars, in other words a place that would physically exclude electrons by the strong charge separation effect that I've predicted of a gravitational field. I hope you don't let this pack of dogs intimidate you. Few people have the courage to discuss revolutionary physics ideas..in the onslaught of their hatred. I think the secret is to simply ignore them. I made the mistake of engaging them. I've said my piece.. they twist what a person does say and reinterpret it and then try and make the person own it. It is a game of deceit and lies and played by exceptionally dishonest men and women. I hope you keep your integrity.

Regards... DHamiltion
aka C. Cagle
 
Of course, they are different. A neutron is a time rate gradient structure precisely because it is a unit charge and the unit charge conjugate in physical superposition, therefore it is a gravitational source; and so is able to keep protons overlapping in the same momentum space. Protons cannot stay stuck together otherwise ;... though there is no reason why spin up spin down protons couldn't form an analog to Cooper Pairs if given the right conditions... However, those right conditions would have to be down near the gravitational terminus loop of a large standing wave flux loop boson such as are at the cores of stars, in other words a place that would physically exclude electrons by the strong charge separation effect that I've predicted of a gravitational field. I hope you don't let this pack of dogs intimidate you. Few people have the courage to discuss revolutionary physics ideas..in the onslaught of their hatred. I think the secret is to simply ignore them. I made the mistake of engaging them. I've said my piece.. they twist what a person does say and reinterpret it and then try and make the person own it. It is a game of deceit and lies and played by exceptionally dishonest men and women. I hope you keep your integrity.

Regards... DHamiltion
aka C. Cagle

A few things about your statement about the neutron ("A neutron is a time rate gradient structure precisely because it is a unit charge").
Firstly a neutron is neutral. It does not have a charge.
What is a "time rate gradient structure"?
What is your proof that a neutron has that structure?

This "pack of dogs" demands that you backup your claims by showing some elementary knowledge of physics. You could start by answering my questions:
  • Are you the same Charles Cagle who predicted the end of the world would be in 2000? If so what went wrong?
  • Please prove that protons are at rest (your original post) or "nearly at rest" (later posts) in the nucleus. A definition of "nearly at rest" would be a good place to start.
 
I don't seem to see any math. Is Hamilton from the Kleinman school of just-so stories?

DH, could you please present the math succinctly? Thank you.

~~ Paul

No, just so stories, friend, however are replete in modern physics.. The BCS theory of superconduction... that's a good example... then the king of them all however is the just so story of the nuclear strong force which was an ad hoc make up story based upon the empirical data that multiple positively charged nucleons (protons) could exist in the same nucleus quite contrary to the expectations of Coulomb's Law. Physicists didn't realize that elementary charged particles that are overlapping in the same momentum space (K-space) will, without the made up fiction of a strong force, exhibit behavior that would suggest that they are quite strongly attractively interactive. Here's a bit of logical thinking... Quantum particles always obtain to the lowest energy state available...this is a basic fundamental axiom of our physical universe... now when you see particles appearing to be attractively interactive or repulsively interactive...you can bet that they are simply going to the lowest energy state available. Consider two parallel conductors... there is no noticeable or measurable force between them other than gravity... but let a current flow in both conductors with the directional sense of the current being the same and now we have measurable phenomena that we call a magnetic vector field and if we examine the vectors...the H vectors of each wire we see that at the point between the wires at the intersection point that the vectors are pointing in exact opposite directions. I'm saying that those anti-parallel vectors don't cancel and make nothing... because that would be accepting the logic that the absence of two things is equivalent to the presence of them both. That's just illogical. Instead they produce a negative energy gradient or a low energy point. This is reasonable because the wires carrying the current look like they are attracting one another. But in reality they are simply going to the lowest energy state available.. we should be accepting that they certainly aren't going to a higher energy state so it must be that since they move that that motion is related to them going to a lower energy state. What we call the Lorentz Force is the same thing... look at the vectors on one side of a charged particle you'll see the vectors parallel (which should imply a higher energy state) and on the other side we see antiparallel vectors which implies a lower energy state... so it follows a curved path... towards the lower energy state We have two examples. Two protons at rest will have vector fields emerging from their apparent locations as a function of remote particles having motion with respect to them. The implication is that they ought to both be falling toward the energy 'hole' that emerges as a function of the intersection of their vector fields. Our textbooks however insist on the manifest presence of a Coulomb repulsive force...yet there's actually no data that demonstrates that there is such a thing as a Coulombic repulsive force between like charged particles that have no motion with respect to each other. If you believe in something for which no data exists then you're not behaving rationally and your belief isn't ...in the strictest sense of the word... 'scientific'. It is more akin to a pagan religion to believe in a god or an idol or a force for which no data exists...

Since for a pair of protons P1 and P1 that are sitting still side by side there are very many third remote particles in the universe each of which meets the criteria that they have some component of their motion that is normal to a plane that contains P1 and P2 so that P1 and P2, to them constitute tiny little parallel current elements. The vector intersection is the same as for the other cases mentioned so their behavior ought to be the same. This merely demonstrates that Coulombic repulsion is a fiction for charges that are at rest with respect to each other...and that their motion is strictly related to the fact that they are going to a lower energy state.

The nuclear 'strong force' is a damn fiction that is exactly to modern physics as the Emperor's New Clothes were the the Emporer and the people in the kingdom who lacked the moral integrity to reject as a fiction that which could not be demonstrated to be true. How perfectly embarrassing for these people now... because I'm not about to stop pushing these facts... I'm the little boy who says 'Look papa... the Emperor is naked'. You cannot cover this up any more... The 'strong force' is a fiction. Gluons are fictions, Quarks are complete fabrications and now it isn't up to me to explain what you huge class of dupe morons have accepted for data that you think substantiates the existence of quarks... there is no escaping what should be your eternal embrassment... If if doesn't come by me..it will come by one of my advocates,
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Edited for civility
.... I hope that your eyes will be opened so that you can see the new day that is coming in modern physics because the alternative is that you will become a laughing stock to countless future generations as were the adherents to Ptolemaic astronomy... It is not too late to change the road that you're on... wake up...

DHamilton... aka C. Cagle
 
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A few things about your statement about the neutron ("A neutron is a time rate gradient structure precisely because it is a unit charge").
Firstly a neutron is neutral. It does not have a charge.
What is a "time rate gradient structure"?
What is your proof that a neutron has that structure?

This "pack of dogs" demands that you backup your claims by showing some elementary knowledge of physics. You could start by answering my questions:
  • Are you the same Charles Cagle who predicted the end of the world would be in 2000? If so what went wrong?
  • Please prove that protons are at rest (your original post) or "nearly at rest" (later posts) in the nucleus. A definition of "nearly at rest" would be a good place to start.


Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
Edited to remove inappropriate remark.


"A neutron is a time rate gradient structure precisely because it is a unit charge and the unit charge conjugate in physical superposition, therefore it is a gravitational source; and so is able to keep protons overlapping in the same momentum space. Protons cannot stay stuck together otherwise"

Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
Edited to remove inappropriate remark.
.. I said a unit charge and the unit charge conjugate in superposition.
Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
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And no,
Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
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.. I never predicted the world was going to in in 2000. Do you often repeat what liars have said that I said? You can search usenet the rest of your life and you can find people who said that I said that but you can't find where I said it..because I never did.

Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
Edited to remove inappropriate remark.


Keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks or insults to argue your point.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson
 
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Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
Edited to remove inappropriate remark.

"A neutron is a time rate gradient structure precisely because it is a unit charge and the unit charge conjugate in physical superposition, therefore it is a gravitational source; and so is able to keep protons overlapping in the same momentum space. Protons cannot stay stuck together otherwise"

Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
Edited to remove inappropriate remark.
... I said a unit charge and the unit charge conjugate in superposition.
Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
Edited to remove inappropriate remark.
And no,
Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
Edited to remove inappropriate remark.
. I never predicted the world was going to in in 2000. Do you often repeat what liars have said that I said? You can search usenet the rest of your life and you can find people who said that I said that but you can't find where I said it..because I never did.
Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
Edited to remove inappropriate remark.

You really need to learn to read. I will quote you exactly:

"A neutron is a time rate gradient structure precisely because it is a unit charge and the unit charge conjugate in physical superposition, therefore it is a gravitational source; and so is able to keep protons overlapping in the same momentum space. Protons cannot stay stuck together otherwise"

What the the unit charge on a neutron? Is it positive or negative? Define what a "time rate gradient structure" is. What is a "unit charge conjugate"? How does having them in conjunction make something a gravitational source? What does your stuff about a neutron have to do with your last sentence?

So you are not the Charles Cagle who predicted the end of the world would be in 2000? That is great because he is a real nutcase :D !
 
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