[Ed]Hardfire with Mark Roberts and Arthur Scheuerman

[SDC]

Red I., just come out and say that you suspect (remember, I just said "suspect") that the hierarchy of the FDNY had inside information that WTC7 was to be brought down intentionally. Please, have some courage. We can't hurt you; don't you realize that? Nothing can happen to you here! Just man/ woman/ artificial intelligence up (whichever applies) and state your suspicions. Even if it involves that suspected (by you) evildoer, Gen Myers. It is so tiring to watch you, and others, pussyfoot around the FDNY. If they were involved in evildoing it should be brought out.


As the old cartoon said, "On the internet, no one knows you are a dog." That means no one can hurt you here. Show some courage.

 

[CHF]

CHF, here is a great source with the accounts organized and a decent well balanced analysis. It might save you some time. I know you don't care for the source, but the research is excellent. You can read the analysis here.

Great article, Swing.

The conclusion basically seems to be: "We need to study the collapse warnings more. Until then, I regard the FDNYs forknowledge of collapse as just another anomaly."

A 24-page JAQ-off piece which (like RedIbis and yourself) is desperately trying to avoid drawing the logical conclusion: the FDNY is covering up a demolition.

 

[R.Mackey]

We already had a discussion on that absurd whitepaper. It's a pile of junk.

We also already explored the implications to the FDNY.

As others have already noted, the fact "firefighters were told" surprises no one. If you were in charge, you would make sure that nobody went in on their own initiative, regardless of how obvious the danger was. Firefighting takes teamwork.

Being told does not preclude making the same determination onesself. And even the Truth Movement whitepaper above concludes that at least seven FDNY members were not told -- so obviously, those seven must be conspirators.

Please stop beating this quivering mass of protoplasm that, once upon a time, may have been a horse.

 

[Miragememories]

Miragememories,

who do think fold those firefighters that WTC7 would collapse?

Which senior member of the NYFD do you think Larry Silverstein spoke to?

MM

 

[CHF]

Which senior member of the NYFD do you think Larry Silverstein spoke to?

MM

What does it matter?

Several FDNY reported WTC7 would collapse and they spread the word.

Your pathetic efforts at pussyfooting around the issue is fooling no one.

 

[Miragememories]

Please quote where I said a single thing to that effect.

Clearly, you're inventing another strawman to avoid the issue.

You cannot simply dismiss observations, measurements, and expertise because you believe that some people were told some things.

How does an observation not lead to knowledge?

When it leads to a claim that the smoke enshrouded WTC 7 south face proves knowledge of a building "fully involved by fire".

You're simply stating that knowledge is more credible than speculation... as if that has any relevance to your argument.

Well, I'll accept evidence based on true knowledge over evidence based on speculation.

What you're unwilling to state clearly, however, is that you believe that they are simply doing what they're told- without question.

Show me where I said or implied that.."without question"?

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

That's what you do with cake. Get over it.

I have nothing to be ashamed of. I did not- in any way- characterize firefighters..."

These are your paraphrased words Totovader, used to characterize the firefighters and not mine; "..they're too stupid, too blind, or too paid off to "see the facts" when they disagree.."

And now you again use insulting derogatory language to describe the firefighters by supposedly paraphrasing members of the 9/11 Truth Movement, using your own words Totovader.

...It is you and your ilk who need to consider exactly how and why you believe firefighters are suddenly ignorant, unquestioning, incompetent sheep.

I suggest you confine your statements to words that you can quote and avoid all the paraphrasing that casts the firefighters in such a terrible light Totovader.

MM

 

[Disbelief]

Wow, I'm shocked that MM is quote mining. Nice debunk of yourself as well. See if you can find it.

 

[Totovader]

When it leads to a claim that the smoke enshrouded WTC 7 south face proves knowledge of a building "fully involved by fire".

What does that have to do with the firefighters who were there that day who saw the building on fire?

Well I'll accept evidence based on knowledge over evidenced based on speculation.

Of course you will- but you will also claim that things are "speculation" if you want to avoid them.

Show me where I said or implied that.."without question"?

Throughout your comments. "So you don't think there's an important distinction between being provided with an opinion by your superiors and forming an opinion on your own?" etc.

Furthermore, your refusal to address the observations by some of these firefighters shows your desperation to avoid the evidence based on knowledge.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

That's what you do with cake. Get over it.

Stundie.

These are your paraphrased words Totovader, used to characterize the firefighters and not mine; "..they're too stupid, too blind, or too paid off to "see the facts" when they disagree.."

You bolded the wrong word- the word you should have bolded would be PARAPHRASED.

And now you again use insulting derogatory language to describe the firefighters by supposedly paraphrasing members of the 9/11 Truth Movement, using your own words Totovader.

Your pathetic attempts at an appeal to spite won't work. Nobody will buy your lame attempt to confuse the comments I am describing. Clearly, I am not describing the firefighters this way- I am pointing out that this is the conspiracists position. Ignoring this by pretending it's mine will not work. Only an idiot would buy that defense.

I suggest you confine your statements to words that you can quote and avoid all the paraphrasing that casts the firefighters in such a terrible light Totovader.

I suggest you address the issues instead of dodging them incessantly with these pathetic strawman arguments. Either address the questions, or move on. I'm not going to beg you to answer questions for 30 pages again.

We both know how this plays out: others ask you questions and try to keep you on topic, and you fire back with these stupid rants which fail to even touch on the issues. Eventually your claims get so muddied and contradictory that you have to run away with your tail tucked between your legs. You've done it before, and I have no doubt you'll do it again- you've already started.

Save us all the time and torment of repeating simple questions for 30 pages: admit your position is contradictory and unsubstantiated and walk away now.

 

[Totovader]

The Miragememories fallacy:

Person X describes the argument of Person Y
Person X therefore believes the argument of Person Y and is accountable for it.

That's a special kind of stupid.

 

[CHF]

It really is pathetic how the loons try to obscure the FACT that members of the FDNY knew that WTC7 would collapse based on what they observed with their own eyes and then passed on word to their collegues.

This cannot be disputed, no matter how long they whine about whether the firefighters were told or whether they made the call on their own.

At the end of the day the problem facing RedIbis, MM, Swing, and the rest of the TM is still the same: how does one reconcile FDNY foreknowledge of WTC7's collapse with the building being a CD?

The only option here is to implicate the FDNY in some way.

The loons know this full well, but they seek to delay acknowledging this uncomfortable fact while they scramble to come up with an alternate explanation that makes some degree of sense.

 

[Newtons Bit]

The Miragememories fallacy:

Person X describes the argument of Person Y
Person X therefore believes the argument of Person Y and is accountable for it.

That's a special kind of stupid.

It's not to a truther. Though it is still hilarious.

 

[DGM]

It really is pathetic how the loons try to obscure the FACT that members of the FDNY knew that WTC7 would collapse based on what they observed with their own eyes and then passed on word to their collegues.

This cannot be disputed, no matter how long they whine about whether the firefighters were told or whether they made the call on their own.

At the end of the day the problem facing RedIbis, MM, Swing, and the rest of the TM is still the same: how does one reconcile FDNY foreknowledge of WTC7's collapse with the building being a CD?

The only option here is to implicate the FDNY in some way.

The loons know this full well, but they seek to delay acknowledging this uncomfortable fact while they scramble to come up with an alternate explanation that makes some degree of sense.

You've hit the nail on the head.

An uncomfortable problem with the CD of building 7 is the NYPD and the FDNY would most certainly know about it. They were freaking there! The problem is that these are real people, not just "them" or "they". Controlled demolition requires the pointing of fingers to real people that "truthers" may meet in real life.

Sucks to be them (truthers).

 

[johnny karate]

You can read the analysis here.

What a crock.

In 23 pages, there's not a single follow-up interview that the writer did with the people whose words he's so carefully parsing to suit his agenda.

Like all CTers, he'd rather infer what these firefighters meant instead of picking up the phone and actually asking them.

Swing, I've said it to your cronies in this thread before, and now I'll say it to you now: The firefighters that were there do not agree with you.

They unanimously agree with the official explanation for the collapse of WTC7.

You're better off arguing what "pull" means or the importance of dust. This one's a non-starter.

 

[MIKILLINI]

It really is pathetic how the loons try to obscure the FACT that members of the FDNY knew that WTC7 would collapse based on what they observed with their own eyes and then passed on word to their collegues.

This cannot be disputed, no matter how long they whine about whether the firefighters were told or whether they made the call on their own.

At the end of the day the problem facing RedIbis, MM, Swing, and the rest of the TM is still the same: how does one reconcile FDNY foreknowledge of WTC7's collapse with the building being a CD?

The only option here is to implicate the FDNY in some way.

The loons know this full well, but they seek to delay acknowledging this uncomfortable fact while they scramble to come up with an alternate explanation that makes some degree of sense.

No matter how hard the movement tries to ignore this fact, it will not go away.
Dear Movement: Whats up with that? Will ye be in denial for the rest of your lives?

 

[Mr.Herbert]

I am getting some slack from the Twoofers in regards to Cheif Scheuerman's book. They are throwing out the "irony" word. Stating that us skeptics have blasted them because of the money that they are making off their videos, coffee mugs, and aprons. I tried to explain to them "Fire in the Skyscraper" is not a book accusing the government of mass murder. That it is a book that goes into detail about the collaspe of the buildings. He also shows that there should be possible code changes that should be made in the future construction of highrise structures. These changes can save lives. I beleive the book also throws a few jabbs at the Port Authority.

In itself, this should have shut them up, as usual it didn't.

Does anyone know if Chief Scheuerman is donating any of the proceeds to any charity? I don't beleive it is necessary, but I think if he is, it may at least quiet them down.

 

[Walter Ego]

The tape of the call-in show, unfortunately, is not available. The producer, Gary Popkin, talks about our upcoming show featuring the ineffable Ace Baker and our difficulties in finding an opponent for the rationalist team:


(Popkin wrote)
The Hardfire program we taped on Tuesday, about the collapse of World Trade Center 7, is on Google Video. BBC-TV was on hand with their camera crew. The program will be cablecast in Brooklyn on March 4 and in Manhattan later.

Arthur Scheuerman, retired battalion chief of the New York City Fire Department and author of Fire in the Skyscraper, was at ground zero on September 11, 2001. He is the firefighting professional, with obvious great respect for his profession and his professional colleagues, of whom he lost hundreds on 9/11. He brings a well-informed calmness and dignity to what is often a shrill discussion. Watch this program and decide for yourself whether he knows exactly what he is talking about and is 100% truthful.

We almost got two truthers to appear on the program, but they backed out at the last second. Marguerite (I forgot her last name) said that she had debunked every one of Mark Roberts' arguments so many times she was not going to waste time doing it again. Paula Gloria said she was not an expert on WTC7, but was concentrating her efforts on showing that no planes hit WTC towers 1 and 2. Hardfire is scheduled to do a program on video compositing on April 24, using video from 9/11 among others as examples of what can and can't be accomplished with the technology. We expect to have as a guest Steven Wright, one of the world's foremost experts on video compositing (no, not the deadpan comedian). Watch for it.

I am planning to write a book called Debunking the Debunker Debunkers as soon as I can figure out on which side of the issue that would leave me.

Gary

Paula Gloria was doing a show for a Manhattan public access channel when Gary Popin called on the day of the taping. Popkin's call is in the part of the video.

Paula Gloria Refuses to Talk about Building 7 at BCAT

Producer of Hardfire calls into rabbitholecentral.tv to announce the acceptance of an invitation to discuss 9/11 and Paula Gloria was delighted to agree...however later in an email Paula realized that the discussion would revolve around building 7 and since Paula doesn't do building 7 anymore she refered the producer (after this stream) to Webster Tarpley, her first mentor in 9/11 truth.