Nuclear Strong Force is a Fiction

DHamilton, you have ignored my post requesting an experimental prediction. Will a test mass accelerate towards 1kg of lead more, less, or the same than it accelerates towards 1kg of glass? Fluorine? Hydrogen?

Please note, for absolute clarity, I am not asking whether glass/fluorine/hydrogen will accelerate towards the Earth, you've explicitly said that you don't predict a difference there. I'm asking about a Cavendish experiment in which a small steel ball is gravitationally attracted towards a large lead/glass/fluorine/whatever ball---with the variable material asking as a "source", as you have specified. I await your prediction.
Seconded.

Here's another consequence that should be observable: A post-supernova star collapsing to a neutron star should show an increase in gravitational attraction, since it's converting electrons/protons to neutrons. This should be directly observable by its affect on the ejected material. Or the self-collapse of interstellar gas clouds should be less than predicted by the quantity (mass) of gas, since they're mostly hydrogen gas - which wouldn't contribute to the self-gravity (and hence collapse) of the cloud.

Likewise, the fine scale structure of the universe should be affected - as the early universe was mostly hydrogen.

I'm sure there's more from cosmology and astronomy that should be directly observable.
 
So the problem that you have with the standard model is that you feel the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is fallacious? If you accept the HUP as a principle, then the standard explanation you describe above is perfectly valid. Maybe you should start with explaining why you think the HUP is not valid, instead of simply trying to dismiss it as ridiculous.


Project much?


You misspelled "psychiatrists."

I've never said that HUP is fallacious. What I will say is that how you're using it is. In the new physics I've found I can even tell you why HUP is true something even Heisenburg couldn't do and it is certain that Einstein couldn't either and that is why he argued against it.
 
Well if you've come up with a theory that addresses all the shortcomings of QM and GR, why are you posting it here and not submitting it to Science?
 
Quite a few people have wondered why an electron just doesn’t fall right down into the nucleus and tightly bind with a proton. Of course, the typical answer that we get is that the electron must obey the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and that as its position becomes more and more localized then its momentum becomes ‘spread’ out.

Ok... I am not a physics major, just like to read texts when I can, and learn as much as I can about cosmology and QM.

I am actually somewhat confused about the HUP I think. Why would the HUP affect things that we aren't trying to measure? I thought that the reason the Principle came about was due to the fact that our measurements agitated the particles and wouldn't allow us to accurately measure both position and momentum. Does the electron somehow present these symptoms ALL THE TIME? Like it is effectively in a bunch of places at once even when we aren't trying to measure it?

Any of you smart guys can answer this for me, thanks in advance ;)
 
Does the electron somehow present these symptoms ALL THE TIME? Like it is effectively in a bunch of places at once even when we aren't trying to measure it?

Yes. And it has been verified experimentally.

If you're wondering how you can verify a statement like that experimentally without measuring the electron, read up on the double slit experiment.

Once you're done with that, read about Bell's theorem - there is no reasonable classical theory (where the electron really does have a definite location) which can reproduce the results of quantum mechanics, and the results of quantum mechanics have been confirmed.
 
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I've never said that HUP is fallacious. What I will say is that how you're using it is. In the new physics I've found I can even tell you why HUP is true something even Heisenburg couldn't do and it is certain that Einstein couldn't either and that is why he argued against it.


Enough talk, do it already.

This should be good...
 
Ok... I am not a physics major, just like to read texts when I can, and learn as much as I can about cosmology and QM.

I am actually somewhat confused about the HUP I think. Why would the HUP affect things that we aren't trying to measure? I thought that the reason the Principle came about was due to the fact that our measurements agitated the particles and wouldn't allow us to accurately measure both position and momentum. Does the electron somehow present these symptoms ALL THE TIME? Like it is effectively in a bunch of places at once even when we aren't trying to measure it?

Any of you smart guys can answer this for me, thanks in advance ;)


Here's a couple of links...

Sol already mentioned the double-slit experiment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_slit

And you should read about wave-particle duality (which applies to not only photons but electrons, protons, etc as well):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_particle_duality

On that second link, pay particular attention to the section about the HUP. That should start to put things into context for you.

Let us know if you have other questions.
 
Yes. And it has been verified experimentally.

If you're wondering how you can verify a statement like that experimentally without measuring the electron, read up on the double slit experiment.

Once you're done with that, read about Bell's theorem - there is no reasonable classical theory (where the electron really does have a definite location) which can reproduce the results of quantum mechanics, and the results of quantum mechanics have been confirmed.

Wow. I had read all about the 2 slit experiment but never quite got it. Seemed like it was never really explained in terms of how one reconciled the results with... Reality. I can't believe I never heard of Bell's theorem. Just after reading the Wikipedia entry on it, I realize that this may tie it all together for me.

Thanks much. * I need to go back to college someday :( *
 
Why would the HUP affect things that we aren't trying to measure? I thought that the reason the Principle came about was due to the fact that our measurements agitated the particles and wouldn't allow us to accurately measure both position and momentum. Does the electron somehow present these symptoms ALL THE TIME?
Absolutely. As explained in the book In Search of Schrodinger's Cat, which I read about 20 years ago, it's not just a limitation of our measurement, it's that nature itself can't decide on a specific position and momentum for each particle.
 
Why would the HUP affect things that we aren't trying to measure?

Let me add a little bit to this. The HUP affects all wave functions, always. Now, when you do a measurement, you change the wave function. But what you get by doing the measurement is still a wave function, even if it's not the one you started with. So the constraint on wave functions in general from the HUP is therefore also a constraint on a measurement, or more specifically, the wave function a measurement can produce. The exact tradeoff between momentum and position uncertainties need not be the same before and after, and since it's an inequality (not an equality), the uncertainty can be reduced by a measurement if it started out above the minimum uncertainty, but the condition applies both before and after every measurement.
 
Personally I am not spending the time to educate DHamilton in basic physics. He seems quite deluded and unlikely to want to learn anyting that does not fit in with his delusions.
But there may be other people in the forum who may think that he is serious. My posts are really directed at them.
 
...In the new physics I've found I can even tell you why HUP is true something even Heisenburg couldn't do and it is certain that Einstein couldn't either and that is why he argued against it.


HeisenbErg's cat:



I bet it is because photons and electrons are covered with cat fur! :) And Einstein hated cats.
 
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Hmmm...seems like ExtremeSkeptic has a kindred spirit or a sockpuppet.

glenn
 
DH: Did you really say this?

Any physics textbook will tell you that the only way that a particle can be a gravitational source is if it has mass. The reverse is also true - the only way that a particle cannot be a gravitational source is if it has no mass. Thus you are saying that neutrons have mass and protons do not. But the measured mass of a proton is and a mass of 938.27231(28) MeV/c2 (1.6726 × 10−27 kg), 1.007 276 466 88(13) u or about 1836 times the mass of an electron.
If the quote is yours then I suggest that you learn some physics.

Reality Check

It is bordering on arrogant to say a whole lot about mass if you don't actually understand the cause or nature of mass in the first place. No textbook in print has solved the question of the nature of inertial mass. To insist that mass must be a source of gravity or that a gravitational source will have mass or that a particle with inertial mass will always be a gravitational source are unwarranted assumptions. A proton may react to a gravitational source but that doesn't logically follow that a proton is a gravitational source.

If I identify a gravitational source as a structure in which a charge and its charge conjugate are in physical superposition then a neutron qualifies but so does a photon since a photon can be disassociated into an electron and a positron through a pair creation event.
 
Reality Check

It is bordering on arrogant to say a whole lot about mass if you don't actually understand the cause or nature of mass in the first place. No textbook in print has solved the question of the nature of inertial mass. To insist that mass must be a source of gravity or that a gravitational source will have mass or that a particle with inertial mass will always be a gravitational source are unwarranted assumptions. A proton may react to a gravitational source but that doesn't logically follow that a proton is a gravitational source.

If I identify a gravitational source as a structure in which a charge and its charge conjugate are in physical superposition then a neutron qualifies but so does a photon since a photon can be disassociated into an electron and a positron through a pair creation event.

So Mr. Sock who ignores me in all his or her incarnations...you obviously didn't see the equation I posted. And you call yourself a physicist...lol
 
I didn't imply you tried to. That was my whole point: you didn't even try. Your interpretations of equations are rather useless if they're not supported by actual solutions to those equations.



I am quite manifestly a jerk. But I happen to be right, and being nice won't make you any less wrong.



So ambiguous descriptions are now to be preferred over unambiguous equations? You're not going to get any takers on that. If the equations are imperfect, that means they're wrong or incomplete, and should be amended or supplemented by other equations, not by empty incantations.



Uh, no. Ball lightning is most likely slowly burning silicate nanoparticles ejected from the ground after a lightning strike.



Show me calculations and I'll consider it. Otherwise, I've got no reason to think that your ideas have any merit whatsoever.



Meaning... what? That two different fields will somehow cancel each other out?



Uh, no. Entropy has nothing to do with this situation.



I can calculate the attraction from parallel currents using Maxwell's equations. I don't need to "interpret" anything. Can you do calculations for any of what you're saying? If you can, show us. If you can't, why should we believe any of it? Physics is a mathematical science. If you can't back it up with calculations, you don't have anything.



No, it doesn't. I've DONE the calculations. I linked to them. The Lorentz force attraction between co-moving like charges is always smaller than the Coulomb repulsion. Always. No exceptions.



No, actually, you can't.

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That's amazing that you should develop such a habit and show it here in the blindness of your exceedingly profound and yet correctable ignorance about the nature of Ball Lightning. Ball lightning is a mass of burning silicate nanoparticles...????!!! Obviously, you've not spent much time really studying the phenomenon. I've spent 35 years studying it not only through eyewitness reports but also by creating it and filming it in the lab via high current high voltage discharge experiments. Pace Van de Vender (sp?) who until about 2 years ago was head of Los Alamos Fusion projects... has also been keenly interested in this powerful phenomenon and sent me an 1858 eyewitness report from a newpaper published in Ireland of a two foot diameter ball that emerged out of a violent thundercloud... It, moving about the pace a man walks, plowed into the ground and cut a trench; and in the process excavated about 200 cubic yards of wet peat in less than 20 minutes! That is over 200 tons of wet peat moved in under 20 minutes and you would dismiss this as a slowly burning mass of silicate nanoparticles? These things have been written about since the time of Aristotle and they kill people and livestock and often violently explode. If you can buy that half witted explanation then you need to be a little bit more educated concerning this phenomenon.

As for your confession of being a jerk...I certainly agree that you are.. but how does that benefit you, either to confess or to continue to behave in that manner? Why don't you simply make an effort to be a nicer person?
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I see that few people here really seem to get what I have been proposing. I'm suggesting that the data that we presently possess in the world is sufficient information to unify electromagnetism and gravity but that we are hampered not by insufficient experimental or observational data but by incorrect analysis of that data. People believe in an 'electrostatic' field that they ideate as emerging from and surrounding a charged particle and yet don't really have an appropriate conception of the nature of the 'field' of a charged particle, nor an appropriate conception of the origin of charge itself. The problem is that they think that they do. They think that there will be a Coulombic repulsion between two like charged fundamental particles that are at rest with respect to each other and yet there isn't any data in existence to confirm that assumption. They do their calculations with that repusion figured right into their equations and so think that two charged particles that have parallel and equal magnitude velocity vectors will still experience Coulombic repulsion. I'm asking the sensible question about why people believe this when there exists no data that substantiates such a belief. Why do you include it in your equations when there's no data that gives you reason to include it? I presented this to Ephraim Fischbach at Purdue about 13 years ago and at first he resisted and then he changed his attitude because in reflecting over his own personal knowledge base he then finally admitted that he knew of no data that demonstrated that elementary charged particles would behave according to Coulomb's law expectations when they were at rest with respect to each other. Here's a scientist well known and well respected not just at Purdue but at Univ of Washington... and many other places...and when I mention his name at the gravity research center they all know him and speak well of him as a scientist. So, I presented this question to him and he finally admitted that what I was proposing was a very interesting thing. He was a reasonable man because he didn't care what the textbooks were saying.. or what they assumed but rather what data there was to back up such assumptions and finally he admitted that he knew of no such data that substantiated the majority opinion on this subject. Why can't you be as intellectually honest as he has been? Why is it the soup de jour here on this website to be disrespectful to any and everyone who presents an idea that is contrary to what you think you know? Instead why can't you simply examine what you think you know and find out if what you think you know is really true and has experimental data to back such beliefs up?

All I'm asking is that you display a little manners and grace and hold your peace if you don't really know for sure... I suppose even if you abide by that...you're going to think you know lots of things for sure that you really don't.

I propose that even in a hot fusion fuel gas, like deuterium ..or a deuteron plasma.. that only those nuclei that actually overlap in momentum space and have proximity on the order of the mean free path will undergo nuclear fusion. Everyone thinks they know all about nuclear fusion and how it works. I'm only challenging the conceptual model that everyone has of fusion. We think we know how fusion works and I'm saying that ... really we've had it wrong. Even in the operation of a fusion weapon I can use the exact same arguments to show that our concept of the fusion process and conditions that lead to fusion is wrong. The weapons work and who can argue with such success...but the reality is that lots of technology can work and work very well and the operational principles behind how it works may be quite different that the reigning belief system. Superconduction is real...but how it works is subject to debate. The BCS theory reigned for years and now has been openly scoffed at by Nobelist Phillip Anderson who has called it "a catalog of failures." Yet you'll still find people teaching that crap because Bardeen, Cooper and Schreiffer won the Nobel prize for it.

I WROTE: I suggest the that intersection of the two vector fields will produce a null point

YOUR RESPONSE: Meaning... what? That two different fields will somehow cancel each other out?

Quote:
I WROTE: or a negentropic point
YOUR RESPONSE: Uh, no. Entropy has nothing to do with this situation.

Your response is so arrogant and uninformed ... Entropy is about the increase of disorder and Negentropy is about the increase of order. Lower energy states are more ordered... And as a side note... I never said cancelled each other out. Why don't you simply read what I wrote instead of filling that apparent innane need of yours to retranslate things that I wrote so that they become a caricature of what I did say that has no resemblance to the carefully chosen words I had used? If you're going to continue to do that why don't you leave reference to my posting off of it entirely and just post your own inanities since that is what you end up doing anyway except you try to associate my posting with your retranslation. That is a fundamentally dishonest behavior.


To consider something cancelled... ??? what the hell is that? You would be suggesting that the presence of two things is equivalent to the absence of them both? Now, that, my friend, is an unparallelled intellectual inanity. When you consider that the field of a charged particle is a continuous structure and then superimpose an opposite charge in the same space ...running the numbers you get zero charge... and that is just the problem with letting numbers take the place of the actual physics and that is why you cannot unify electromagnetism and gravity using your present intellectual processes and misconceptions of the nature of charge and the nature of gravity. This sort of intellectual sloppiness is, unfortunately, epidemic in modern physics. I want to openly declare this so that anyone reading this can get a good laugh at your expense; at least as good of a laugh as I have gotten. There is the classic example of the problem of doing physics with a pencil or a calculator or computer because you replace fields with numbers and then forget about the actual physics...

YOU WROTE: No, it doesn't. I've DONE the calculations. I linked to them. The Lorentz force attraction between co-moving like charges is always smaller than the Coulomb repulsion. Always. No exceptions.

You impose the Coulomb repulsion into an equation when there is no experimental data that substantiates belief in the existence of such a repulsion between elementary charges. That is knee-jerk thinking... you learned it in a book and despite the fact that there's not a single piece of data in the world that demonstrates such a Coulomb force between particles that are at rest with respect to each other you still insist on trying to make physics into mathematics...
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or I'll put your posts on the ignore list. I had hoped to find more restraint and better manners here than I can find on the unmoderated usenet newsgroups. I'm becoming quickly aware that this Randi website is nothing more than a public tiolet
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.


I HAD WRITTEN:
and that you can extrapolate all this to see that the 'strong force' is a fiction.
YOU RESPONDED: No, actually, you can't.

Your profound ignorance about the emergence of a belief in a 'strong nuclear force' isn't an excuse nor does it constitute an authority. While I may have been mistaken about you having the sense or intellect to figure out that the 'strong force' is a fiction... don't suppose that your ignorance runs over like a boiling pot to drown out insight in other people. I agree you can't do it. But a person of intelligence can and when they know the facts will do exactly that.. which is to recognize the 'strong force' as an intellectual fiction contrived because scientists lacked the insight and careful attention to detail that would have allowed them to unify physics nine decades ago.

DHamilton... aka (for those too witless to figure it out... Charles Cagle)
 
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Your profound ignorance about the emergence of a belief in a 'strong nuclear force' isn't an excuse nor does it constitute an authority. While I may have been mistaken about you having the sense or intellect to figure out that the 'strong force' is a fiction... don't suppose that your ignorance runs over like a boiling pot to drown out insight in other people. I agree you can't do it. But a person of intelligence can and when they know the facts will do exactly that.. which is to recognize the 'strong force' as an intellectual fiction contrived because scientists lacked the insight and careful attention to detail that would have allowed them to unify physics nine decades ago.

DHamilton... aka (for those too witless to figure it out... Charles Cagle)


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Pretty much the guy is claiming that he has found a TOE and that he alone is greater than every mind physics (and chemistry) has ever seen. I can't understand why he thinks presenting an argument for a TOE on an internet forum under an alias makes more sense than presenting it to scientist face to face. Actually I can understand. He would rather not have someone laugh in his face and he or she (and every incarnation he had here) enjoys stringing us along and seeing who lacks the common sense to ignore and ridicule him (or her). Can we ignore the woo now?
 

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