Z-pinch Sunspots

[Reality Check]

And note that EU theorists say their theory would predict an anti-correlation between sunspot activity and neutrino flux.

In other words the more sunspots, the fewer neutrinos. If sunspots had any relationship with z-pinches and so with fusion reactions then more sunspots would mean more neutrinos.

 

[Dancing David]

Ok, I'm convinced that the sun might be mostly nuclear powered.

Okay, I already conceded that there is a role for EM in physics. What role do you want Birkeland currents to have?

 

[Dancing David]

Upon reflection and trying to remember, I think that BAC may have posted a picture of a solar flare when asked where a Birkeland current entered the sun.

So I was mistaken, it was a flare and not a sun spot.

 

[robinson]

Ok, I'm convinced that the sun might be mostly nuclear powered.

Whoohoo! Am I the only one that considers that a huge thing? Congratulations BeAChooser. You have exhibited the open mind. A thing of beauty.

That still leaves the question of what role electric current plays in the behavior of the sun and throughout the solar system.

I would say "the role of electromagnetism in the behavior of the sun". And solar system. And Galaxy. And Universe.

But that is another topic.

 

[sol invictus]

Whoohoo! Am I the only one that considers that a huge thing? Congratulations BeAChooser. You have exhibited the open mind. A thing of beauty.

I have him on ignore. So now he thinks it's "mostly" fusion powered? As in, maybe the electric sun garbage is only 90% wrong?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Well shut up then. Did you really need to post that comment?

I see no derogatory comments aimed at you. Whats your problem, really?

He doesn't suffer fools gladly, nor should he.

(Complexity, sorry to speak for you, but I have had the same approach in the net for many years, NSFG.)

sol: thanks for the graph, most informative.

DR

 

[Belz...]

Ok, I'm convinced that the sun might be mostly nuclear powered.

Well, there's something I don't see every day. Congratulations.

 

[BeAChooser]

The role of electric current in the sun is minor.

Where do magnetic fields come from?

The role that pinches, birkeland currents, and double layers play are minor.

Funny. Even the folks who claim magnetic reconnection is the key keep talking about pinches. And just because YOU can't recognize a Birkeland current when you see one or insist on renaming it a "flux tube" doesn't mean it's not important to the way the sun behaves in the solar system. And likewise, magnetic reconnection may just be a renaming of the exploding double layer phenomena ... without truly understanding what is going on.

It is impossible for neutrinos to be derived from "electric phenomena". They are due to nuclear interactions not electrical ones.

If electrically induced pinches produce nuclear interactions then neutrinos can result from electrical phenomena.

There is little possibility of a neutrino "camera" since they do not interact enough with matter to be brought to a focus.

What a shame.

 

[BeAChooser]

In other words the more sunspots, the fewer neutrinos. If sunspots had any relationship with z-pinches and so with fusion reactions then more sunspots would mean more neutrinos.

I've never claimed that z-pinches are related to sunspots. And I tried to correct that bit of misinformation David introduced to this thread out earlier. Guess you missed it.

The EU theorists state that

http://www.electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm

Fusion in the Double Layer

The z-pinch effect of high intensity, parallel current filaments in an arc plasma is very strong. Whatever nuclear fusion is taking place on the Sun is occurring here in the double layer (DL) at the top of the photosphere (not deep within the core). The result of this fusion process are the "metals" that give rise to absorption lines in the Sun's spectrum. Traces of sixty eight of the ninety two natural elements are found in the Sun's atmosphere. Most of the radio frequency noise emitted by the Sun emanates from this region. Radio noise is a well known property of DLs. The electrical power available to be delivered to the plasma at any point is the product of the E-field (Volts per meter) times current density (Amps per square meter). This multiplication operation yields Watts per cubic meter. The current density is relatively constant over the height of the photospheric / chromospheric layers. However, the E-field is by far the strongest at the center of the DL. Nuclear fusion takes a great deal of power - and that power is available in the DL.

It is also observed that the neutrino flux from the Sun varies inversely with sunspot number. This is expected in the ES hypothesis because the source of those neutrinos is z-pinch produced fusion which is occurring in the double layer - and sunspots are locations where there is no DL in which this process can occur.

It would help if you people even tried to understand the theory you are arguing against.

 

[BeAChooser]

I have him on ignore.

You keep saying that but keep responding to my posts.

 

[Reality Check]

I've never claimed that z-pinches are related to sunspots. And I tried to correct that bit of misinformation David introduced to this thread out earlier. Guess you missed it.

The EU theorists state that ...

It would help if you people even tried to understand the theory you are arguing against.

A discussion of the Electric Universe hypothesis is off topic which is "Z-pinch Sunspots". It looks like everyone agrees - there is no relationship between z-pinches and sunspots.

 

[robinson]

On the z-pinch and sunspots as examples of z-pinch phenomena.

In other threads much of the electric sun model has been discussed at some lenth and confusion of subject matter. A certain poster has made two claims in seperate threads, one that sunspots are where Birkeland currents enter the sun. And in another that sunspots are an example of possible z-pinch effect and that this provides the energy for the sun. ...

Of course I am sure I missing something here.

David, once again you misrepresent what I actually said. I'm not certain whether I ever linked something that made the first claim. I suppose it's possible. But I certainly didn't make the second claim. I drew your attention to an image that happens to have a sunspot in it but it also has something else ... an bright many filamented event in the vicinity but not directly over the sunspot. And that might be a z-pinch. I made every effort to get you to look at that something else but apparently your blinders made it impossible for you to see anything but the sunspot.

Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up.

 

[Dancing David]

So how does the energy get from the filimentary z-pinch to the rest of the sun BAC, are there enough of these z-pinches to illuminate the sun?

 

[Reality Check]

So how does the energy get from the filimentary z-pinch to the rest of the sun BAC, are there enough of these z-pinches to illuminate the sun?

I may be misstating BACs position but if he supports the "Fusion in the Double Layer" quote that he posted then he believes that the sun is illuminated by fusion happening in a layer at the top of the photosphere.
Any hypothetical filimentary z-pinches will occur several times a day (the frequency of solar flares) and will not be a major factor in the sun's illumination. Or maybe these hypothetical filimentary z-pinches are just around sunspots and so still low in number.

 

[Dancing David]

Well hopefully the answer will be less than opaque and not "You are a dolt david". I got the impression that there was a wide area of double layer that was spherical as well.

 

[Reality Check]

Electric Universe theorists have suggested that there is a spherical double layer at the top of the photosphere and that this is where the fusion powering the sun happens. See the link in BeAChooser's post. But the hypothesis stated there has many problems, e.g. no correlation between solar activity and neutrino flux as in the paper published in 2000
"Correlative Aspects of the Solar Electron Neutrino Flux and Solar Activity" (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/317787).

Scientists persist with the standard model of fusion for stars because it works. They know that a sustained fusion reaction will happen if you subject hydrogen to high temperatures and high pressures. This is exactly the situation in the core of stars. The standard model predicts the observed abundance of elements in the stars, what happens during a star's lifetime, the cause of supernovae, etc.

 

[Dancing David]

Well the spherical double layer would have some observable things as well, the biggest question I would have would be, what holds it together, at that temperature and pressure? And how does that work for a red giant?

RC, you will find that BAC does not answer direct questions, he will point some way and spin but not usually answer.

 

[BeAChooser]

They know that a sustained fusion reaction will happen if you subject hydrogen to high temperatures and high pressures.

Actually they don't "know" this since they can't actually observe the core to see all the parameters affecting the problem. Perhaps that's why after more than a half century, they still haven't been able to produce a "sustained" fusion reaction in the lab. Who knows ... perhaps they'll have to introduce another gnome to make it happen?

 

[Reality Check]

Where do magnetic fields come from?
Funny. Even the folks who claim magnetic reconnection is the key keep talking about pinches. And just because YOU can't recognize a Birkeland current when you see one or insist on renaming it a "flux tube" doesn't mean it's not important to the way the sun behaves in the solar system. And likewise, magnetic reconnection may just be a renaming of the exploding double layer phenomena ... without truly understanding what is going on.

If electrically induced pinches produce nuclear interactions then neutrinos can result from electrical phenomena.

Magnetic fields come from electric currents. Solar magnetic fields have a important role in stars but little role beyond the surface of a star. They do have a role in flares and solar winds but these are minor phenomena, i.e. do not affect a stellar system as a whole. So the energy source of the sun is a major effect. The solar wind today is a minor effect - when was the last time that a planet was blown out of its orbit by the solar wind?
I agree that electrical phenomena may indirectly create neutrinos. However the big word in your reply is "If". No pinch (zeta, theta or other) in the laboratory has produced fusion. You should not try to project possible future results under tightly controlled conditions onto the chaotic conditions of the sun. The best that you can say is that pinches produce plasmas with high temperatures and so the observed high temperatrures ini flares may be due to pinches.

 

[Reality Check]

Actually they don't "know" this since they can't actually observe the core to see all the parameters affecting the problem. Perhaps that's why after more than a half century, they still haven't been able to produce a "sustained" fusion reaction in the lab. Who knows ... perhaps they'll have to introduce another gnome to make it happen?

We do not have to observe the core of the sun to know it exists. The parameters are simple - temperature and pressure. We know the parameters because we have done it - ever hear of the hydrogen bomb ? The core of the sun is basically a lot of hydrogen bombs.