[Merged]All religions are idiocy

Oh, of course. But any being with superpowers would be real high on the short list for God. But the sort of "tests" I'm imagining would require any human input. It would just be God showing His power in a way that was objective and verifiable.

Would God showing His power be scientifically verifiable (Is that even possible) or would it need to just be experienced by you individually for you to accept it?

You have an idea of what "God showing His power" would mean to you - if you were the only witness to this "showing of power" would you accept it or believe it even if every other human didn't believe you because they weren't there to experience it and it was apparently a one time (supernatural) event?
 
Oh, of course. But any being with superpowers would be real high on the short list for God. But the sort of "tests" I'm imagining would require any human input. It would just be God showing His power in a way that was objective and verifiable.

This presupposes a god that works through supernatural means. There are many, many religious folks who do not believe this to be the case. A god of first cause, for instance, only operates within the natural laws of the universe (some consider those laws to essentially "be" god).

Very few serious theologians posit a George Burns-style god who goes around performing parlor tricks for folk musicians. Sure, folk religions and mythology do, but formal religious systems tend towards the concept of god being unknowable.
 
Default to Immoral
Agreed, this has always seemed a strange leap of logic to me.

The Annexation of Our Humanity
Not sure I understand this one. Do you mean giving human qualities to deities?

Truth and Eternal Recapitulation
Any religious idea that limits inquiry seems bad to me, so agreed.

The Subjugation of Humanity
Agreed. Any religious idea that runs counter to humanism is problematic for me.

Prophesy, Fate & Despair
I'm a big believer in the value of systems of divination, but I make no paranormal claims about them. I value them for the same reason I like the old Russian proverb "any decision you make while drunk should be reconsidered while sober. And visa versa."

Before one can work for a future, one must assume there is a future. End of times prophecies are about denying a future. I wrote some about that here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3470134&postcount=37.

Afterlife
Not sure which religion says that killing is okay because people don't really die...Lutheran, maybe? Garrison Keillor always seemed pretty blood thirsty.

Don't get me started on the "entirely private realm" religions. :)

But seriously, I would be curious know which religion you are referring to here.

Religions are murder-justification devices. False distinctions are created whereby some deserve to live and some deserve to die.

Refer: Radrook http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3461572&postcount=186. Please pay particular attention to his 5 point why-God-can't-murder schtick about half-way down. Check out point #5. Sadly, Radrook's interpretation is bang-on.

Just in case you don't feel like reading all the blather:
Radrook said:
1. God's right to take life [any life] because he is the life giver.
2. God's right to judge and pass sentence because he is the supreme judge of the universe.
3. There can be no murder if the death sentence is deserved.
4. We are all deserving of death because the sentence for sin is death and we all sinners.
5. Those executions are tantamount to placing someone in suspended animation due to the resurrection promise.

We apply the word "murder" to killing precisely because we do not think it is okay. The word "murder" is almost all normative connotation. To argue against the word "murder" is to modify the normative content of the killing act, to lessen it, to make it acceptable. "Suspended Animation" indeed.

Now, check out the last paragraph of:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3456174&postcount=159.

Again, in case you don't want to read the whole thing:

Radrook said:
Also, before the issue emerges, those who God has assigned to carry out his will or who take life in accordance with God's law or commands are not criminally accusable because they were acting on God's behalf.

In the words of Keanu Reeves: "Woah!"
Now we have no idea who is or who isn't "assign" by God. Is there a test.
Getting nervous yet?

So, to answer your question, Christianity and Islam. In the case of Christianity, everyone deserves to die - at least they spread the hate around more or less equally. But you can name any afterlife-espousing religion. They posit an existence of the self after the current one. Therefore the current existence is cheapened as temporary and fleeting.

For the record, all of the monotheistic religions accepting the OT are instructed to murder me on sight. Deut 13:6-10. And Mat 5:18 puts paid to the idea that Jeebus countermands that command. It is not only "okay" according to the OT to murder me; it is "Right(TM)!" Forgive me if I take issue with that.



Win Powerball!!!
There are many clearly documented cases of people winning Powerball. You seem to be conflating possibility with probability. If you don't play, there is a 0% chance of winning, if you do play, there is a slim chance. I think they even publish the raw odds. What's your complaint?

The "Win Powerball!!!" thing is not actually a part of the content of the post, although I can see how I might have left that open for confusion. It is a satirical schtick I include in most posts about a certain "function" in the JREF and how it is being administered.

There is no shark...
Win Powerball!!!
 
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The inconsistent logic, the equivocation and outright silliness of your posts is starting to support the OP in your case.

That's an improvement. This time you managed to attack my posts not me, but still without any real evidence, just assertion. :) Care to provide some? Give a few examples of inconsistent logic and equivocation - I freely admit silliness, but that was intentional. Or even better why not actually explain why I'm wrong? :)

cj x
 
This presupposes a god that works through supernatural means. There are many, many religious folks who do not believe this to be the case.

Any examples? The god of first cause example doesn't sit well with me, because it simply redefines "first cause" as god, which is stupid.

Very few serious theologians posit a George Burns-style god who goes around performing parlor tricks for folk musicians. Sure, folk religions and mythology do, but formal religious systems tend towards the concept of god being unknowable.

More importantly, they make their concept of god unfalsifiable.
 
gic and equivocation - I freely admit silliness, but that was intentional. Or even better why not actually explain why I'm wrong? :)

cj x

It was done earlier with your flawed "first cause" argument.
 
Gods of any sorts require that consciousness of some sort can exist absent a material brain. We have no evidence that this can happen. All evidence shows that consciousness is a product of a working brain. Additionally, all god concepts are invisible and immeasurable... therefore, they are indistinguishable from demons or delusions or imaginary friends. We have no evidence that anyone CAN know that such things are real... much less evidence that such things CAN exist.

Every god is built on that very shaky foundation aren't they? As far as objective reality is concerned, all gods are indistinguishable from fairies or imaginary friends or thetans or demons... right? People believe in these immaterial forms of consciousness --beings that did something or does things --a being that has feelings and desires and plans... --but no brain from which these mental processes sprang.

A skeptic has no reason to think that any particular version of invisible beings are more real than any other, do they? We know lots of them are delusions, illusions, and cultural artifacts, right? All believers believe they believe for logical reasons... but that doesn't mean there is any real logical reason for believing invisible immeasurable forms of consciousness exist... much less that some human could tell us about such. Right?

I think the bottom line is that most religions claim to have access to "divine truths" and no human has a means of distinguishing a true "divine truth" from a mythological "divine truth".
 
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He equivocates the definition of rational to muck up the thread.

Also, as pointed out by Balrog, his argument fails. If everything that begins to exist has a cause, the universe has a cause.. then there must be a first cause......however, that first cause also began to exist and must also have been caused, which must've also been caused by something else and so on and so forth.

The "logic" is flawed in CJ's argument.

Oh, got you. No, I think you misunderstand what rational means in terms of a "rational argument". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationality#Rationality_contra_logic
for an explanation.

As I keep saying, rationality is a property of an argument not a conclusion. An argument can be completely rational, and completely wrong.

I also discuss Rationalism - defined here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism

I'm possibly using the terms in a technical sense, not whatever the general usage one in your country? I don't know I'm afraid. I suspect our disagreement may be partly down to language.

cj x
 
Oh, got you. No, I think you misunderstand what rational means in terms of a "rational argument".

And here is the equivocation I was talking about. Clearly, I am using a different (but valid) definition of "rational" than you've attacked. My definition means "reasonable" or "logical conclusion BASED ON FACTS." That's why I made a clear distinction between a logical reason and a rational reason. If I mean logical by saying "rational" I would not use both words.

As I keep saying, rationality is a property of an argument not a conclusion. An argument can be completely rational, and completely wrong.
You mean logical. If it was rational, it would be based on facts and evidence as well, not just some arbitrary BS premise.
 
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I'm saying that the conclusion doesn't fit the premise. If everything must have a cause, then the first cause must have a cause as well.


That is correct, but I have not actually given the whole argument. As I have mentioned a few times, I don't find it convincing personally - and you can review the full argument and the acual objections to it here -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument

I gave the link before. Generally if you want to critique my arguments, looking at the flaws I usually am at pains to mention helps. :)

I still want to return to Articulett's excellent points about special revelation, which are far more problematic to my mind, from my position anyway! She packed a lot in that post and I want to address it properly, and apologise for not having done so before. I will tonight I promise!

cj x

cj x
 
And here is the equivocation I was talking about. Clearly, I am using a different (but valid) definition of "rational" than you've attacked. My definition means "reasonable" or "logical conclusion BASED ON FACTS." That's why I made a clear distinction between a logical reason and a rational reason. If I mean logical by saying "rational" I would not use both words.

You mean logical. If it was rational, it would be based on facts and evidence as well, not just some arbitrary BS premise.

No I don't. To quote the article i just linked

wikipedia on rationality said:
A logical argument is sometimes described as "rational" if it is logically valid. However, rationality is a much broader term than logic, as it includes "uncertain but sensible" arguments based on probability, expectation, personal experience and the like, whereas logic deals principally with provable facts and demonstrably valid relations between them. For example, ad hominem arguments are logically unsound, but in many cases they may be rational. A simple philosophical definition of rationality refers to one's use of a "practical syllogism". For example,
I am coldI don't want to be coldIf I close the window I will not be cold... Therefore, I will close the window All that is required for an action to be rational is that if one believes action X (which can be done) implies Y, and that Y is desirable, he or she does X. The action would likewise be avoided were Y undesirable. Such arguments are logically valid but not necessarily logically sound. For example, the premise "If I close the window I will not be cold..." may in fact be incorrect. As making formally sound argument is generally considered difficult, the "soundness" or "strength" of such premises will often rest on induction, statistics, and simplified heuristical models.



Don't take wiki's word for it. I could have written the article after all. Look it up in any dictionary of philosophy.



cj x
 
Before one can work for a future, one must assume there is a future. End of times prophecies are about denying a future.

Ah, agreed:

Divination system with no paranormal claims <> Prophecy

Sorry if that wasn't clear. Prophecy claims to be able to see or know about future events. That's not what I'm talking about. Outside of the "fortune telling business" I know of very few people who use divination systems who believe them to be more than random stimuli...like a self-administered Roshack (sp?) Test...useful for entirely mundane reasons.

Don't get me started on the "entirely private realm" religions. :)
Could you start just a tad? I have no idea what it is, but if it involves Lake Wobegon, I bet it is moderately amusing and then 10 minutes later you realize you haven't been paying attention to a word they've said.

Religions are murder-justification devices. False distinctions are created whereby some deserve to live and some deserve to die.

Damn Quakers! I knew they've been hiding a murderous blood lust all these years!

For the record, all of the monotheistic religions accepting the OT are instructed to murder me on sight. Deut 13:6-10. And Mat 5:18 puts paid to the idea that Jeebus countermands that command. It is not only "okay" according to the OT to murder me; it is "Right(TM)!" Forgive me if I take issue with that.

Look, I'm higher on the "death list" than you, I can guarantee it. People with my religious beliefs aren't looked at kindly by any of the religions of the "Book."

However, walk down to your nearest church, synagogue or mosque, find the guy in charge and turn yourself in. You could even hand him a knife! I'm over 73% sure he won't stab you. Most likely, they will just let you off with a warning.

Actual religious practice differs from what is in "the book" quite a bit, is what I'm saying. That goes for just about any religion that is based upon a written tradition.
 
I've always found the argument that a God needs to have been created as rather weak - probably because before I was a Christian I had already accepted that the universe could be infinite, could have always existed, etc.

It is rather weak. I think one advantage of a Kalam-type formulation of the cosmological argument over certain others is that it makes it a little easier to see why there's no necessarily infinite regression of causes.
 
Don't take wiki's word for it. I could have written the article after all. Look it up in any dictionary of philosophy.

When I say rational, I mean logically sound. I will use that term from now on. I disagree with the wiki definition of rational. I think it's irrational to draw conclusions based on flawed logic and/or any logic based on false premise.
 
My definition means "reasonable" or "logical conclusion BASED ON FACTS." That's why I made a clear distinction between a logical reason and a rational reason. If I mean logical by saying "rational" I would not use both words.

Since we are talking about epistemology and using logical proofs, I think it is best to use the definitions common in the fields of epistemology and logic. After all, this terminology is commonly used in this way not only in philosophical and religious fields, but in mathematical and scientific fields as well.

Remember, skepticism is itself a philosophical tradition with 2000 years of history. Anyone attempting to study in this field using their own preferred definitions of these words is going to get frustrated very fast.

Imagine talking number theory with a mathematician and trying to use the common definition of the word "trivial" rather than "a result already proven." It could potentially lead to exchanges like this:

Math Guy: that conclusion is trivial
You: okay, explain it
Math Guy: Well, the proof is 300 pages long, so that would take some time
You: I thought you said it was trivial
Math Guy: Sure...but it's a really, really complex proof
 
I am thinking you're trying to get all technical with posts made using the more common usages of terms. But, since it plays to your equivocations, I'll simply use "logically sound" from now on. Why do theists try to trick people into believing in a god instead of just offering up evidence that one exists?
 
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Would God showing His power be scientifically verifiable (Is that even possible) or would it need to just be experienced by you individually for you to accept it?

You have an idea of what "God showing His power" would mean to you - if you were the only witness to this "showing of power" would you accept it or believe it even if every other human didn't believe you because they weren't there to experience it and it was apparently a one time (supernatural) event?



How about showing himself/herself/itself (no masculine pronouns here) above the town square. I would certainly believe then. Pretty sure most of the world would believe as well.

(Once again) - It is all made up. It doesn't matter how many arguments, 'proof's, dictionary terms or philosophical statements are used by believers, when you get right down to the brass tacks, it is all made up. There is nothing and there has been nothing (excuse the grammar) that has ever shown the existence of this being.

It is all hypothetical and that isn't even allowed in most of our courts.

[From Greek hupothetikos, from hupothetos, placed under, supposed, from hupotithenai, to suppose; see hypothesis.]

eg. I don't know why we are here, I suppose it must have been god.

:)
 
Would God showing His power be scientifically verifiable (Is that even possible) or would it need to just be experienced by you individually for you to accept it?
Oh yes, scientifically verifiable would be a piece of cake for any God worth his salt.:D

But as to whether I would need it to be experienced by others, I cannot deny that a number of people who have denied God have come later to accept Him even though it was not "objectively" demonstrated. I would guess that I am as susceptible to this sort of conversion as other atheists who are presently convinced of the non-existence of God, however, I find it unlikely. I can only address what would convince me given my present state of mind. I cannot honestly address what would be sufficient to convince me if my mental condition were altered to the point that I no longer required evidence for my beliefs. I suspect that if such a "miracle" were to occur, I could be convinced of God by seeing a flower or a cloud.

You have an idea of what "God showing His power" would mean to you - if you were the only witness to this "showing of power" would you accept it or believe it even if every other human didn't believe you because they weren't there to experience it and it was apparently a one time (supernatural) event?
I would likely think that I was mistaken, dreaming or addled. I certainly have been "convinced" of supernatural beings in the past (especially childhood) only to discover later that I was letting my imagination carry me away. The years have taught me to distinguish reality from dreams. Can I still be fooled? Certainly. But it is much more difficult.
 
I've always found the argument that a God needs to have been created as rather weak - probably because before I was a Christian I had already accepted that the universe could be infinite, could have always existed, etc.

What were you before you were a christian? Why do you call yourself a christian now?
 
An argument can be rational and internally consistent while being based on a false premise.

Example, "If a god exists, he's made himself impossible to detect or measure or know about."

This is sound. But it rests on a premise of a god existing. Most theists just assume that one does and then go about building their "rational arguments" based on that premise. If a god does not exist, the very premise of their argument fails along with everything on it.

There does not appear to be a rational reason to presume that there are "divine truths" that humans can access. There is not a rational reason to presume that any god or any form of consciousness without a material brain can exist... and yet that is the very premise most religions presume from the outset. The foundation they build their "truths" on. And it all crumbles unless there are "divine truths"... unless consciousness can exist outside the brain.

You can build a logically consistent argument while presuming these things... but if the basic premise is not true, your argument is built on a delusion. Most religions appear to be built on just such a delusion. They assume facts not in evidence from the get go and spin the myth from there.
 

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