[Merged]All religions are idiocy

Hiya!


Nope. Rationality is a property of the method used to derive a conclusion, the argument, that is the process used to arrive at the conclusion, not of the conclusion itself.

This argument is rational
1. Premise: All jimjoms are flibflabs
2. Premise: All flibflabs are poodlicoks
3. Conclusion: All jimjoms are poodlicoks.

Nowt irrational or illogical there. The conclusion remains nonsense, but it remains rational. I agree it might not be reasonable. I agree we might have problems finding empirical support for it. It is not however irrational.

cj x


Wouldn't the only rational argument here be that there is no such thing as a jimjom or a flibflab and whoever says there are, has made these names up to hide their lack of knowledge re poodlicoks.

;)

ETA: I just realised, that sounds very theist. :)
 
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The vast majority of religions claim to have divine truths or special knowledge... often this knowledge involves invisible immeasurable entities like gods or demons or thetans or souls... since these things are invisible and immeasurable they are indistinguishable from delusions or such things or imaginary entities. As such the vast majority of religions claim to know something about which no one can know. We have no evidence that there are any divine truths or that any kind of consciousness can exist without a living brain. To posit otherwise is to make a claim of knowledge that is not verifiable.

We have no way of distinguishing such claims from delusions and so they are rightly treated as such just as a person's conviction that someone else is possessed or that horoscopes work or that an alien probed them is treated as such. We know that humans are prone to certain types of delusions... we even have a pretty good idea as to how and why they evolve and how they are culturally dependent.

Religions usually claim to have access to divine truths but they all only have "stories" that are indistinguishable from myths, known delusions, and the known ways people have been fooled.

Maybe that's not idiocy... but there is no reason to believe that there is even such a thing as "higher truths"... much less that any person has access to such. Anyone claiming to "know" of such truths is lying to you, if not themselves. Thus, there is no means by which anyone could obtain this special knowledge that isn't measurable or verifiable or testable by any objective means.
 
Thanks for making a stab at it anyway!

You're welcome.

We all look for "The Answer" to this question at some point in our lives. I certainly did. And finding that there was no Answer didn't make me invent one which would make me feel comfortable.

Hold on, now. There's a huge difference between saying "Science can't establish that there's an answer" and "There is no answer". Again, the question is one for philosophy, not science. I imagine many people aren't looking for "the one answer", anyway, but consider the thought about the question as the reason for asking it in the first place. Something like "it's the journey, not the destination", or what have you. ;)

It certainly is, just as believing in any wishful thinking is nice.

Yes, and that's the point. It's nice to believe that sort of thing, as compared to facing the idea that death is the end of everything you are. That's a bit of a bummer.

Name one that isn't idiotic.

I named two. Whether you choose to view them as idiotic or not isn't relevant, which I'll get to momentarily.

As there is no reason at all to think their wishful thinking in this regard is any different from wishful thinking in general, yes they are idiotic.

No, they aren't, and it's obvious you can't see why. These beliefs are, from a scientific perspective, baseless. There is no evidence indicating that any of these things reflect a quantifiable reality. That in no way makes them idiotic, however, because their accuracy has no bearing on why these beliefs have value to our species.

You have to understand, DD, I agree with you in principle. I would like evidence of claims before I put stock in them. I also have real issues with people who deny the reality of the evidence (in cases like Young Earth Creationists, for instance), simply because they expect the universe to function according to their beliefs. However, I appreciate why people could have faith in things that have no scientific explanation, and I don't fault them for it.

Think about it for a minute. Why would otherwise sensible people believe in such things? For many of them, it's because not believing in them is simply too difficult. Death is a terrifying reality for most of us, and the notion that we will simply cease to exist is too much to face at times. From what I've seen, people engage in certain irrational behaviours that allow them to function despite their impending doom. We learn to ignore what awaits us, to forget it most of the time. If we couldn't do this, most of us would have great difficulty functioning.

I believe that is precisely what religion is. These beliefs are a manifestation of our brains protecting us from stress. People created mythologies to explain the world, to make sense of things they couldn't understand, and to give them something to look forward to after their physical lives ended. All of this as a form of survival mechanism makes perfect sense to me. In fact, I'd argue that being able to believe in spite of the lack of evidence could be an evolutionary advantage; no matter what the individual discovered about the world, he or she could still believe in a higher power, reincarnation, the afterlife, etc., and gain the benefits of both belief and knowledge.
 
Hiya!

Let's start with definitions


Oh, let's not. That gets so tedious here.


Dunno if that helps at all. And i still don't think I'm an idiot. :)

cj x


It didn't help me at all. I find your stuff long and unreadable.

As to you're being an idiot, I haven't formed a conclusion yet.

I'm sure you'll continue to provide us with more evidence.
 
Take the good Samaritan...I've seen lots of studies that test whether people stop and help a stranger in need. The results are not encouraging.

American Scientist published a study of manners from many large cities. http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/18814?fulltext=true
The Brazilians did rather well, because good manners are seen to be a valuable social asset worthy of public display. Does that mean they are not 'genuine'? What is the difference if the outcome is the same?

New Yorkers did quite well, but with a bite. Found envelopes were re-posted, but sometimes accompanying remarks about the stupidity of losing mail. I think that most people, atheist or not, innately know the value of the story, but circumstances modify it. It's an evolved trait.
 
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(Can I link Youtube rock videos? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtnCcWOS7y8 - Probably not work safe, but a Theology class classic!)
I found their arguments unconvincing. :D

Not so. You can not observe the development of a species in to another species.
Better than that. The entire process can be seen at work as bacteria and insects mutate and compete in real-time.

1. Human beings are so improbable, they must have been designed.
Evolution wrecks that one.
2. It is too improbable that the universe should be so accommodating to life.
It is fantasy and hubris too even begin to put a number on that. The believer is also no closer to an answer than before.

I don't see that there is anything to answer. We evolved. The universe is what stuff is. Everybody's gotta be somewhere. This is reductionist, I suppose, but no amount of logic or theology is going to provide any answer that does not include simple acceptance at some point.
To paraphrase BadnewsBH, I think that religion is all about denying in-your-face reality.

As far as this thread goes. It was more amusing when DD was supporting the idiot idea.
 
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It didn't help me at all. I find your stuff long and unreadable.

As to you're being an idiot, I haven't formed a conclusion yet.

I'm sure you'll continue to provide us with more evidence.

:D I'm sure I will. However you are the second person to imply my posts are unreadable, which is a bit worrying. I think I have a very low attention span, but I do not have a problem reading a few paragraphs of text, though I might decide not to bother if there was little information content. Now given the vast amount of more interesting content on the web I'd blame no one for going reading something more enticing. Still, mildly worried.
Amusingly I also received a pm from someone who like my writing. Oh well!

And Articulett, surprisingly I think we agree on quite a bit based on your last post. I'll reply properly as soon as i can!
cj x
 
I found their arguments unconvincing. :D

What part of "I'm a sex fuhrer baby I'm a love dictator" do you have issues with? :eye-poppi ;)

Better than that. The entire process can be seen at work as bacteria and insects mutate and compete in real-time.

hey, that's why I said species to species! Ya know, what Creationsists call "macro-evolution"!

1. Human beings are so improbable, they must have been designed.
Evolution wrecks that one.

Yes indeedy. The biological diversity of life on Earth can indeed be seen as staggeringly unlikely - however it can arise in a series of tiny steps, as described in Dawkin's Climbing Mount Improbable. I understand probability. Where the problem lies here is that we don't have many iterations of universes, there is no time for evolution of universes, the whole Big Bang thing then sets us a ridicolous enigma. Our usual arguments against teleology simply fail. Either we have a multiverse, so yes we do have scope for our universe to arise by chance, or something is dodgy - as Hoyle remarks "the universe looks like a put up job." Cosmologists Paul Davies or Bernard Carr explain this issue well, and I think it was Carr who memorably says it's "multiverse or God" - and I think he would go for multiverse - but Davies offers more potential solutions. I think the Skeptic magazine article I linked is pretty excellent.

2. It is too improbable that the universe should be so accommodating to life.
It is fantasy and hubris too even begin to put a number on that. The believer is also no closer to an answer than before.

Sure, I agree. After all life could adapt to the prevailing conditions. Regardless of whether life exists or not, the existence of a stable universe which can form galaxies, solar systems or even elements beyond hydrogen is a serious enough problem - by our current calculations. As I hope I have been at pains to point out, it may resolve in various ways as we learn more.

I don't see that there is anything to answer. We evolved.

Most of us, anyway. I sometimes wonder about a few... :)

The universe is what stuff is. Everybody's gotta be somewhere. This is reductionist, I suppose, but no amount of logic or theology is going to provide any answer that does not include simple acceptance at some point.

Yes, except there was a not-time when there was not-something, and then a "Big Bang" (which is not really a very good description), a period of Cosmic Inflation (nothing to do with the US economy) and then as things cooled down, 14.5 billion years later, us, whittering on forums. I don't think we actually disagree much - I think there MAY be limits to knowledge, but hey we seem to be making testable predictions in Cosmogeny, as opposed to say String Theory. I remain terribly optimistic - when I was born, Cosmogeny was no further than say Theology, and we have made vast progress.

To paraphrase BadnewsBH, I think that religion is all about denying in-your-face reality.

That's where we differ. I don't think I deny reality any more than any other human. :)

As far as this thread goes. It was more amusing when DD was supporting the idiot idea.

yeah, where did he go?

cj x
 
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All right, I hear people saying we've gotten all boring. I find cj's stuff really interesting, but I'll try to spice things up a little. Here is an honest question.

Up till now, we have restricted ourselves to discussing the theistic concept of whether a God gave rise to the universe and perhaps gave rise to the laws or nature. However, when people complain about the irrationality of religion, this usually isn't the concept they are complaining about. They might not accept it, but it isn't the thing that really, really annoys them.

So, my question to the folks who seem to dislike religious beliefs...what specific religious beliefs bother you the most and how are they harmful? I'm not looking for lists of bad things done by religious people, mind you, but particular beliefs that end up causing harm.
 
Thanks Neltana, ok time for a change of pace - and I'll quickly volunteer a couple.

1. The Notion of Hell and Eternal Punishment - millions of people have suffered anguish about their salvation, or the idea that loved ones may eternally suffer torture. I think eternal extinction is a much happier idea than that people might suffer this, and I think it has caused incredible misery throughout history - I can think of few positives if any?

2. Patriarchy, and the subjugation of women.
While not a constant in theistic societies the religious suppression of the female sex is a miserable disgrace.

cj x
 
Thanks Neltana, ok time for a change of pace - and I'll quickly volunteer a couple.

1. The Notion of Hell and Eternal Punishment - millions of people have suffered anguish about their salvation, or the idea that loved ones may eternally suffer torture. I think eternal extinction is a much happier idea than that people might suffer this, and I think it has caused incredible misery throughout history - I can think of few positives if any?

2. Patriarchy, and the subjugation of women.
While not a constant in theistic societies the religious suppression of the female sex is a miserable disgrace.

cj x

The way I see it religions reflect the mentality of the believers more than the other way around. People tend to pick and choose which portions of their religious doctrines to focus on and how they wish to interpret them. For instance, chauvinistic societies tend to found or adhere to chauvinistic religions, and authoritarian societies tend to invent draconian supernatural punishments. Matriarchal societies would tend to have religions which reflect their own cultures.
 
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken:
No, the conclusion is that there is a cause. It says nothing about where that cause came from or what it is. /thai

Agreed. It is a causa causans, a first cause, that which ends the pattern of infinite regress.


Did I miss the slight of hand here? How did you jump from the conclusion that a "first cause of the universe" existed somewhere, sometime to your next "conclusion" that such a cause had no cause itself?
 
It is a causa causans, a first cause, that which ends the pattern of infinite regress. This was one of the classic theological constructions of God, in say Thomas Aquinas. You can call it God because that is what theologians did, but you might as well call it "value X". It does not look much like a God to you or me - it looks like a First Cause.

There is no ultimate first cause. I contend that "value x" is the pattern of infinite regress that continually evolves and shapes itself and we are part of that continually evolving pattern.
 
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There is no ultimate first cause. I contend that "value x" is the pattern of infinite regress that continually evolves and shapes itself and we are part of that continually evolving pattern.

Heretic! :)

So it would seem that you don't except the premise that everything must have a cause. Is that correct?

Indeed, this is a weak spot of most theistic proofs. Just because we can establish through experimentation and observation that everything in the universe must have a cause, this doesn't necessarily imply that the universe itself must have a cause.

Since time didn't exist until the universe was created, any cause and effect related to the creation of the universe couldn't be cause and effect as we understand it.

* head explodes *
 
Heretic! :)

So it would seem that you don't except the premise that everything must have a cause. Is that correct?

Indeed, this is a weak spot of most theistic proofs. Just because we can establish through experimentation and observation that everything in the universe must have a cause, this doesn't necessarily imply that the universe itself must have a cause.

Since time didn't exist until the universe was created, any cause and effect related to the creation of the universe couldn't be cause and effect as we understand it.

* head explodes *

Yeah St.Augustine said something on this, I'll see if I can find it. He was challenged "What was God doing before he created the universe?" and said basically "before He created the universe there was no time, so the question is meaningless." 5th century theology and modern cosmogeny sometimes sound quite similar!

cj x
 
Did I miss the slight of hand here? How did you jump from the conclusion that a "first cause of the universe" existed somewhere, sometime to your next "conclusion" that such a cause had no cause itself?


There could be a vast series of antecedent causes prior to the cause of our universe - not only do I not deny it, I argue exactly thus in my "logical case for theism" simulation hypothesis later in the3 thread, just because its fun!. :)

cj x
 
So, my question to the folks who seem to dislike religious beliefs...what specific religious beliefs bother you the most and how are they harmful? I'm not looking for lists of bad things done by religious people, mind you, but particular beliefs that end up causing harm.

In addition to what cj.23 offered...

Default to Immoral
That we are inherently immoral and need to have morality instilled in us by means of internalized brainwashing. It is harmful because it actively promotes "evil" in us by pretending we like being "evil." It''s like an advertiser describing some incredibly unhealthy food as decadent and desirable, but telling us not to have too much. This is not just a Abrahamic thing. It seems to apply throughout religion. Why not teach people that they like being "good" for a change?

The Annexation of Our Humanity
In order to make themselves seem topical, religions latch on to human qualities and try to claim them as their own. Often, they then go so far as to claim that these human qualities do not actually exist outside the framework of their religion or their deity. This is harmful because it attempts to divorce us from our own humanity. It makes us cynical, bitter and despairing of humanity.

Truth and Eternal Recapitulation
The idea that this or that religion provides us with Truth(TM) ends questions except within a particular, limited realm of meaninglessness. Angels on the head of a pin. The result is stagnation.

The Subjugation of Humanity
Philosophies are tools, not Truths. They are there to serve humanity, not the other way around. Religions reverse this and turn people into cogs in a dogmatic machine. Human lives are seen as meaningless, people are seen as expendable. The harm of seeing people as expendable is immediately obvious.

Prophesy, Fate & Despair
Prophesies are despair, straight up. We're all gonna die anyway. Fate is inexorable, we are all pawns, blown along helplessly on the winds of fate. Look in your childrens' eyes. If you really think fatalism is correct, why didn't you wear a condom? There is a future and we must strive for it, in the here and now.

Afterlife
Death is not death. It's a transition. So say the crazies, thus rendering human life trivial and meaningless. Some have argued that murdering people isn't murder because we don't really die. Wow! Just Wow! there's a word for that and that word is Psychopathic. Do we really need a description about why this is harmful?

I could go on and on and on.....


We must stop hoping to....
Win Powerball!!!
It's not about the turn of a tricky card.
 
Heretic! :)

So it would seem that you don't except the premise that everything must have a cause. Is that correct?

Indeed, this is a weak spot of most theistic proofs. Just because we can establish through experimentation and observation that everything in the universe must have a cause, this doesn't necessarily imply that the universe itself must have a cause.

Since time didn't exist until the universe was created, any cause and effect related to the creation of the universe couldn't be cause and effect as we understand it.

* head explodes *

Hehe.

My definition of "universe" is "reality-and-all-that-encompasses-it". That would include our inflating cosmos and what ever multidimensional construct it may or may not have emerged from/within.

If the universe, by the above definition, is infinite it would be the sum of all numerical values and thus would be a net value of nothing--

*headslpode*
 
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