Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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You just posted three idiotic questions.

Well is Dr. Goodall an idiot for her romantic idealism that yes there is no reason for Bigfoot not to exist? Or is she an enlightened professional steeped in the rigors of scientific method? Honestly William in one of your recent posts you have more or less demoted her to being just a Footer. Idiotic is 300+ pages of this stuff ans no end in sight. I'm perfectly happy to read all about Indian wigs, flipped frames, who cast what and who pulled who's leg. But the good Dr. Goodall is more likely one of the very few posters or people mentioned on this thread that has is actually earning a living from primate science.
 
.... But the good Dr. Goodall is more likely one of the very few posters or people mentioned on this thread that has is actually earning a living from primate science.

And probably knows less about Bigfoot ( lore ) than I do ..

Your point? Other than a lame appeal to authority ?
 
But the good Dr. Goodall is more likely one of the very few posters or people mentioned on this thread that has is actually earning a living from primate science.

And what is her expertise in bigfoot? Has she been presented with the scientific (or lack of) evidence and made a careful evaluation or was she just making a snap opinion based on what she heard? This appeal to authority is not valid unless Dr. Goodall has presented the evidence (or had others present it) that supports the claim that Bigfoot exists. So far, all I have seen is some of her offhand comments made in one interview and no great scientific effort such as papers submitted for review in scientific journals.

This kind of "quoting experts" is common in pseudoscience. You see it a lot in UFOlogy. Astronauts, pilots, government officials, etc. are all quoted to lend credence to the study of UFOs. However, some of them are misquoted and others are just making offhand comments in single interviews. When pressed, they often back off and state that their words were taken out of context. This seems to be the case here. Goodall is not an idiot but she should know better.
 
This one...

[qimg]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Gorilla%20Suits/Gsuit4a.jpg[/qimg]

....is more realistic, in that it has body/muscle contour, without all the folds and wrinkles, of the cheap type....but does it have the flexibility/apparant muscle movement that Patty's "heavily-padded" hide has?....

You could always check out the Sonoma video. As I recall, they used that costume for the video and that it was good enough to fool Rick Noll.
 
And probably knows less about Bigfoot ( lore ) than I do ..

Your point? Other than a lame appeal to authority ?

Well maybe if you keep on the straight an narrow you'll get to sit down with Ms Goodall and enlighten her with your knowledge someday.
 
This kind of "quoting experts" is common in pseudoscience. You see it a lot in UFOlogy. Astronauts, pilots, government officials, etc. are all quoted to lend credence to the study of UFOs. However, some of them are misquoted and others are just making offhand comments in single interviews. When pressed, they often back off and state that their words were taken out of context. This seems to be the case here. Goodall is not an idiot but she should know better.
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Carl Sagan mentioned something along those lines in his book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, when he said,

"I'm frequently asked, "Do you believe there's extraterrestrial intelligence?" I give the standard arguments -- there are a lot of places out there, the molecules of life are everywhere. I use the word billions, and so on. Then I say it would be astonishing to me if there weren't extraterrestrial intelligence, but of course there is as yet no compelling evidence for it.

Often, I'm asked next, "What do you really think?"

I say, "I just told you what I really think."

"Yes, but what's your gut feeling?"

But I try not to think with my gut. If I'm serious about understanding the world, thinking with anything besides my brain, as tempting as that might be, is likely to get me into trouble. Really, it's okay to reserve judgment until the evidence is in."
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His book was a welcome addition to my home library.

RayG
 
I would like to read an explanation regarding what makes the Hoffman "creature" obviously a "man in a suit", also. What is taking so long? What is delaying the individual that Sweati Yeti is relying on, for an analysis?

...As for attributing Joyce's sighting report to something....I can't easily attribute it to both Joyce and her daughter being screwy enough to make-up the sighting...given the fact that her husband supports her story (did she decieve her husband, too...or are all 3 of them in on the deception?)...

How long have you known them? Family members tend to reinforce or participate in delusions and/or hoaxes, when dealing with outsiders. It is an expected response, even if the family members are dubious about the claims, or even flat out don't believe them. The family is a mutual support co-op, by nature.

...and the fact that years after-the-fact, she called me to tell me about it (what did she gain by making the call?)...

Attention? A place in Bigfoot lore? A sense of inclusion? Cults can possess a strong pull on those in need of a sense of belonging. A major factor that plays out in Bigfoot belief is a caste system. At the lower end are the "believers". Elevated above them, by mutual reinforcement, are the "Knowers". Being able to enter Bigfootism, and jumping straight into a higher caste is enticing enough to produce an exciting account.

Kitakaze can easily attribute it to some explanation like that...but I can't.

Why? When logically, it is obviously a story, a misidentification, or she/they were punked?

There should be a scientific method involved in it.

Agreed. But not pseudo-science. The investigation of the Bigfoot/Yeti mystery (at this stage, still a myth), requires the dumping of all hoaxes, tainted "evidence" and evidence rendered dubious by contamination.

There is, though, very strong evidence for it's existence, in the way of sighting reports, footprints, the PG film, the MD Video, hair samples, and vocal and wood-knocking sounds at night.

Is this the sum total of Bigfoot "evidence"? About the PGF... Is this the "best evidence"? A question about the PGF has to be asked. Apologies if this has been asked before, straight out, and answered adequately. If it has, I must have missed it (which is possible).

With the indications presented by others, over the years, but particularly the recent ones, regarding editing of the film, and discrepancies involved in the timeline of events, how can the PGF be even considered potential evidence?

Where is the original? Without the original, it is worthless. All copies are worthless, by themselves. Who examined the "original"? Of those that are supposed to have examined the "original", how can it be verified that they were not checking a copy, presented as "original"? It requires more than old school Bigfoot hunters/researchers, associated individuals, or even nebulous supposed "skeptic" academic/s, back in the 1960's, to "vouch" that what was supposedly "examined", was in fact, untampered, non-edited, original developed film rolls.

What exactly can be verified, about the supposed "original" film, and it's validity as an unedited original developed set of rolls? When was the last time anyone but an enthusiast/proponent examined it? How can it be verified that even this nebulous set of rolls was an original developed set? Where are they now?

How can the PGF be expected to be taken seriously, without an original to examine?
 
Please forgive me if this has been posted before. I just found it myself today.

I've seen the work of MK Davis on various Internet boards, but he seems to spread his theories around, and some of these links have gone dead. I think he would be better served by buying a domain name and hosting for himself, and keeping everything on one site. But such is the nature of Bigfootery and the Internet, always in constant flux.

Anyway, here is an interesting link:

http://www.monsterhunter.us/newsletter/MonsterHunter Newsletter 2nd Addition.htm

The last part intrigues me: "Look closely, you can see the crack of the butt as it goes down on all fours with arms extended for support".

Yes, Davis is able to glean this information from the very blurry frames he includes...
 
Well is Dr. Goodall an idiot for her romantic idealism that yes there is no reason for Bigfoot not to exist?
William Parcher didn't imply that Goodall is an idiot. Is it possible for someone to be wrong without being idiotic?

Or is she an enlightened professional steeped in the rigors of scientific method?
The appeal to authority fallacy is always wrong, but when the subject is bigfoot, it's hilariously wrong.
 
Members of this Forum:

My name has been thrown about in this thread for the last two months, by people who profess to be critical thinkers and logical investigators. They have discussed my activities on the internet, and asked questions about me, while never thinking to simply go to the source and ask me directly, despite knowing exactly where to contact me.

Mr. William Parcher, in particular, you stated (in your post #11765) "The BFF is safe harbor for him, but how can he take his "Patty-Is-Real" dog & pony show outside of that forum? Uh oh! Once he steps outside of BFF, the whole world is Thunderdome. Much better to stay close to the Patty cult, or drop the whole affair entirely. "

I'm stepping outside that forum. I'm entering this one. I'm meeting you on your "turf", along with Correa Neto and AtomicMysteryMonster and in coming days, I will correct your collective errors posted the last two months, answer your questions and state the facts which apparently you fail to perceive in my writings.

Further, I will qualify that my intent, on other forums and this one, is to apply my 30 plus years of experience as a film industry makeup effects fabricator to the direct question, "can the costume suit technology and processes of the 1967 era have been capable of producing a suit that would appear as the figure in the PG Film does?" All my study and research effort is applied to this issue, given my experience in such technologies. It is not applied to other issues.

Let's begin with Mr. Parcher's full post #11765 of February 20, reading:

Oh yes, that Bill Munns rode a white horse into the BFF. This white horse is named, "I Believe That Patty Is A Real Bigfoot."

Critical thinkers (PGF skeptics) just get to watch his painfully ridiculous analysis of 1967-era costumes and the Patty costume - which is all designed to arrive at the foregone conclusion that this is not a hoax. He tries to act as an objective and impartial 'expert' observer, but he wears his belief and credulity on his sleeve. This man has Bigfoot woo blood flowing through his veins.

Don't think for a moment that his sudden appearance on BFF is coincidental or accidental. Now watch the future to see if he is contracted outright or becomes encouraged to seek profit$ as related to his 'expert Hollywood status' and obvious belief that Patty is real. But then again, maybe he is coming to terms with his own ridiculous situation.

Munns has been rather quiet lately on the BFF. He recently got the LMS : DVD and he may find himself watching a guy in a suit. Now what? Maybe he takes some notice of the few Patty skeptics on BFF (Walas is long gone but his posts remain, Dfoot is now gone but his posts remain), and maybe he reads JREF. The BFF is safe harbor for him, but how can he take his "Patty-Is-Real" dog & pony show outside of that forum? Uh oh! Once he steps outside of BFF, the whole world is Thunderdome. Much better to stay close to the Patty cult, or drop the whole affair entirely.

Maybe he can't sleep at night after seeing the hands (or whatever they are) on LMS. If he decides that Patty is a fake after all, how will he extract himself from the credulous mire he has already created for himself on BFF? He painted himself into a corner surrounded by fawning Patty sychophants. Is that what he really wants after all? Poor Bill Munns. What will he say and do next?


Mr. Parcher, your first two paragraphs simply demonstrate a propensity for literary distraction, not critical thinking. And they contain a conspicuous contridiction, stating "critical thinker (PGF skeptic)" which implies the one must be the other. So you specify the intellectual agenda a critical thinker must adhere to, your view on a subject, to quality. Sounds like dogma, alligence to your view only, because real critical thinking doesn't specify an agenda as a qualifier.

Then you say, in the beginning of the third paragraph:

"Don't think for a moment that his sudden appearance on BFF is coincidental or accidental."

You haven't a clue why I'm there. A critical thinker would never indulge such pure speculation, with no other basis than personal insecurity. You are just inventing suspicion. My introduction to the BFF was in fact accidental. I was doing a Google image search for a bigfoot image, and the search engine took me to a Chris Walas thread in that forum. Pure accident, nothing more. I liked what I read. I joined and participated.

Then you recklessly say:

"He recently got the LMS : DVD and he may find himself watching a guy in a suit. Now what?"

This is factually incorrect (sometimes called a lie or mistake, depending on intent). I do have a LMS book, not the DVD (my video sources come from other researchers), but perhaps you cannot tell a book from a DVD (the round shiney one is the DVD). Or you feel such factual distinctions have no bearing on your agenda of criticizing me. The truth is, You have no idea what references I have, or when I got the ones I have. You haven't got a clue about my research sources and library. As a critical thinker, I would say your statement was either a failure to distinguish material facts, or a rash assumption, or a malecious falsehood. But I won't suppose to know your intent as you do suppose to know mine. I can say categorically that your statement is false. Disagree? You pro-offered the statement, Now prove it true!

Then you say:

"Maybe he can't sleep at night after seeing the hands (or whatever they are) on LMS. "

It also speaks volumes of your obcession with me that you waste forum resources speculating about what I watch, how I sleep, or anticipating what I may do in the future, instead of focusing on your own efforts and devoting energy to some constructive endeavor you can put on your resume (unless of course your ambition is simply to criticize others for having different opinions than yours, a prospect a critical thinker would reasonably wonder about you).

You finish with:

"What will he say and do next?"

The answer is I'm here, and I'm ready to address all your questions with direct and factual answers. Now the question is, what will you say to me, person to person, with all the forum watching, to see if you are, in fact, a responsible and fairminded critical thinker.

Bill Munns
 
William Parcher didn't imply that Goodall is an idiot. Is it possible for someone to be wrong without being idiotic?

The appeal to authority fallacy is always wrong, but when the subject is bigfoot, it's hilariously wrong.

The environmernt with which questions are asked or responses rendered are of prime consideraiton with me. From nearly everything I've read on this forum if one is not in line with the dominant point of view then those opposing points of view are viewed and hailed as idiotic and those maintaining opposing points of view are idiots. But one must be wary of guilt by association around this place. Bigfooters are considered idiots by most here and are for the most part treated as such and assigning Jane Goodall into the Footer modality is, unless dispensation is offered, assigning her as idiot. Furthermore I was not appealing to aurthority concerning Dr. Goodall. I was considering whether or not her detractors within the context of this thread were of a higher or more accomplished aurthority. I for one am not but is there anyone here who is? Lastly Ms Goodall and myself do not share the same view as to whether Sasquatch/Bigfoot exist.
 
The suit and it's "details" are moot, when the film itself is suspect. Subjective interpretations of a poor image, lends little to a movie. Like a conjurer's misdirection, the hand waving about the "realism" of the suit, keeps the eye off the film itself. Who has vouched for the film?
 
LTC8K6;

Did you read my statement of intent?

"Further, I will qualify that my intent, on other forums and this one, is to apply my 30 plus years of experience as a film industry makeup effects fabricator to the direct question, "can the costume suit technology and processes of the 1967 era have been capable of producing a suit that would appear as the figure in the PG Film does?" All my study and research effort is applied to this issue, given my experience in such technologies. It is not applied to other issues. "

Did I say i will prove a bigfoot real? No. I said i would study the potential of a suit to do what's in the film.

Got a question on my premise?

Bill
 
Hi Bill! And welcome!

My simple question is this: you appear to have worked on (to some degree) 2 movies that I can find (1 in 1984 and 1 in 1985). What other movies have you worked on in the last 30 years as a makeup effects man?

Just trying to find a sampling of your work.

thanks, and again welcome!
 
Hi Mr. Munns,

On The Let's Talk Bigfoot podcast you mentioned that you helped someone cheat in a horse show (this was in connection to why the Patterson costume could not have been made out of horsehide). Did you accept money for this help?

Thanks for answering my question.


Oh, and by the way, did the horse win?
 
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Btw Bill I have had 3 face to face encounters with the creatures if you ever diside to do a bigfoot like you did the giganto I would liove to work with you on it .
my first encounter was with a young one a foot away and the second with a grown male less then 15 feet away I got a good look at both of them .
# 3 was face to face but at a distance but I still got a good look at him to .
Ive had many other sightings but not as close as these I think I could be a big help if you diside to build a bigfoot . welcome to the forum or as I like to call it the gutter .
 
I'm stepping outside that forum. I'm entering this one. I'm meeting you on your "turf", along with Correa Neto and AtomicMysteryMonster and in coming days, I will correct your collective errors posted the last two months, answer your questions and state the facts which apparently you fail to perceive in my writings.

Welcome to the forum! I'm looking forward to your future posts.
 
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Got a question on my premise?

No, and it's silly to try to attempt to limit the questions we can ask you.
What have you got to fear?

Did I say i will prove a bigfoot real? No. I said i would study the potential of a suit to do what's in the film.

Aren't you claiming Patty is real?

What's in the film that a man in a suit can't do?
 
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