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DMT, Dreams and Near Death Experiences

Yowza, you haven't really cited your source.


Source for what aspect?

1. Other neurochemical might be involved and in fact have to be involved.

I totally agree, there are likely many other similar neurochemicals that have a similar effect, DPT, 5-MEO-DMT, 4MEO, all of these are structurally analogous to the neurotransmitter serotonin, but have quite unique visual effects. Dreams are likely a concoction of all of these together.


[quore]I want to also state that i am not saying that it is impossible: but there has not yet been evidence presented here that would make me think that DMT is not one of many neurochemical associated with the circadian cycle and the dream cycle.[/quote]


I would largely agree with that. I think that the striking similarities between the DMT state and near death experiences are the more compelling than the links to dreams. DMT may be one of the many chemicals that is produced to create dreams, but it does not seem to be the primary one.

Some DMT experiences exactly mirror what people report in NDE's, the similarities between the two are very precise, far to much to be co-incidence.

So, thinking along the lines of Strassman, maybe DMT is released in substancial amounts only specifically on death, or near death, experiences.
 
thesyntaxera,

OBE's are sometimes innacurate... as in the person sees something from above that isn't there... Maybe DMT is involved in the process at least some of the time if not always (after all, we always have proprioception, but DMT might be able to put the "image" and "visuals" on what is normally just a sensation of spatial-orientation)

Is DMT required for visually imagining things? As they have called the pineal gland "the minds eye"

INRM

I can't really say since my actual scientific knowledge on the subject is limited in scope. I wouldn't say that DMT is required so much as it is a part of it...it's not like our brains cease functioning when asleep...and because it is part of the chemistry going on at all times I doubt that in the context of the brain it has a huge role...it's just another one of the players. Never the less it does generate incredibly complex imagery by itself, but that imagery seems thematically based on the users predispositions.

I have personally experimented with this chemical several times a number of years ago with the express purpose of finding out exactly what the deal was for myself. Although it would take too long to unfurl the whole of the details I can give you the gist of my impressions if it would help you get a better idea of it's effects on the brain....

As far as DMT and imagining things...I have no idea but I strongly doubt its the only thing in there that is responsible.
 
Perhaps it works differently in creuls.

Cruel. (not creoles or crullers) DD is the opposite of say, Truthseeker1234 (Ace Baker) who typed clear, good prose, but was completely wacked--a no-planer.

Perhaps I'm unusual, thesyntaxera, but I, for one, would like to read about your DMT trips. That's one chemical that scares me, based on my knowledge of hippie lore, reading Ronald Siegel, etc.
 
Perhaps I'm unusual, thesyntaxera, but I, for one, would like to read about your DMT trips. That's one chemical that scares me, based on my knowledge of hippie lore, reading Ronald Siegel, etc.

Well, where to begin......it is a scary chemical...

My experience was a bit different since I consumed it orally via psilocybin. The onset took about 30 minutes or less, and was at that "dosage" rather intense(approximately 6 grams). An uneasiness washes over you, which was probably related to the digestion process, as you can feel it metabolize and spread through your body. At about the 1 hour mark I was in a big over stuffed chair with a blanket pulled up to my chin, feeling like I was strapped to the tip of a rocket. At about this time my visual field was being interrupted by a sort of neon green color that was creeping in the periphery.

I am not sure how long I sat there, but as I did I felt a flow of sensation from my toes to my head, and with each wave the sensation in my head got more instense, almost nausea inducing. So, I got up and went to the bathroom, got down on all fours in front of the toilet. After a minute or two my visual field was completely unreliable. Mostly it was just a the typical distortions one gets on psychedelics..ie wavy patterns on things...but they were much more active than usual.

With my head in the toilet, I was still getting the waves of sensation, and now I felt that I might vomit, or need to induce vomiting. There was a distinctly euphoric content, but it was over powered by the unpleasantness. So I attempted to induce vomiting, to no effect. I decided to remain for a few minutes, but was getting worried. At this point the sensation of control was completely gone, and I began to ponder if I may have consumed poisonous mushrooms, or moldy mushrooms...there was an amazing flight of thought...and the thoughts were not cognizant in anyway...just worry mostly.

So, with the green haze, and the rocketing sensation going full force I finally peaked...in the bathroom. I remember feeling like I was dying physically. The sensation sort of drained out from my head back to my feet...as it drained I thought for a second that I was dying for sure, and thats when the open eye hallucinations began.

I was still aware of sitting on the floor, but I couldn't see the floor, or the room I was in. From the same vantage point, I looked out an saw what appeared to the earth in the form of a giant red grid. It was transparent, and against a black backround. Presiding over the gridded earth was a enormous transparent statue of liberty. Looking around I noticed that in each grid was a person. Then I noticed I was in the a box as well, and appeared to be the same red energy color that the grid and other people were.

The statue of liberty looked down at me and yelled while pointing "Your not supposed to be here!!!!!"

I felt like I was a fuse so to speak, and that I had burnt myself out, and now it was mad that I burnt myself out. During the whole experience I still have my thought voice, but I can hear the statue of liberty chastising me for being so careless.

For the next two hours I sat in the chair in the living room again, having my visual perception highjacked every 15 minutes by the grid planet...then eventually I came down enough to feel essentially just really euphoric.

The whole process took about 5 hours with an aferglow period of about 2 hours before I slept.

Disclaimer time- I don't endorse any one reading this and thinking it would be cool to try.
 
<---first post maybe?

Very interesting folks! Been a good read thus far, and to start I have to declare that my neurochemistry knowledge is severely limted in comparison to yours....what I do know has been gleaned from the internet, and although I likely undertstand the machinations better than your average joe, I won't even try to get into the nitty-gritty of the brain chemistry. Goes right over my head, though I do love reading about it, and I do learn quickly.

The only reason I'm posting is because I have a significant amount of 'experimental' experience with DMT, 5MeO-DMT, salvia divinorum (host to several forms of DMT, i believe, no sources, heresay only), and other psychedelics.

My DMT experience was a shaking one. I have never had a NDE, so cannot compare it to that. However, I have tried other substances, from LSD, to mushrooms, mdma and mda to salvia.

We used a volcano vaporizer, and 0.04 grams of N-N-DMT. If you've never seen a volcano, it fills a large plastic bag with vapour, from which you draw. It blows heated air through your product, trapped between two screens, at a steady pressure, with easy to control steady heat. I took a full inhale, held it, released, took another full inhale, and 'sat' on it, only releasing it when hallucinations began.

Hallucinations first crept in from the edges of my vision, similar to the 'eyeball pressing effect' mentioned above, but with significantly more definition and detail. At first, these hallucinations resembled a shifting snake scale patter, like on diamond backs. In trying to see what they were, i thought to myself that they looked a lot like fractals, at which point they seemed to assume a form closer to what I have seen the mandlebrot set visually represented as. Definitely self influenced.

Upon release of the vapour, I felt that the bed I was lying on was rising, similar to an elevator.

(aside: as I recall these experiences, sources of contrast in colour and light levels are giving me slight recall hallucinations, happens everytime i spend a lot of time thinking about these experiences)

Gradually, as I was rising, the fractal hallucnations covered my visin to the point that I could no longer see anything else, and I rose out of these visions like out of a cloud bank, with a vision of a monolithic wall stretching from horizon to horizon, and near as high as I could see. This wall rose up from a barren landscape similar to the moon but more geologically diverse, with much less uniformity in rock types. There was a sensation of a structure to my right, and as I turned to look, I was pulled through an open wall into a large laboratory, or control room.

Immediately I noticed I was somehow restrained. Tight enough not to be able to struggle free, but loose enough to be comfortable, to a degree. The restraints were like a giant three-fingered hand, gripping over each shoulder, and one through my legs, gripping the crotch (yeah, uncomfortable) and "plugging in" at my belly button. The room had some panels, with some screens and lights, although that was all out of focus. The main focus was a channel cut into the floor. The floor was made of what looked like concrete, but with inscribed figures around and in the channel. The channels itself was straight, and about six feet deep, and ran straight out of the building, parallel to that monolithic wall, and, I had a sense, right off the planet. There was nothing in it to see directly, but when looking else where, my periphery would pick up currents, like some sort of fast moving stream. I could feel these currents, this stream, as vibrations of the air. This stream kind of scared me, more out of a feeling of not being ready for it than anything else.

This is when I noticed the beings. Like the stream in the channel, I could not see them by looking directly, yet my peripheral vision picked up shimmering, iridescent figures, much larger than I, with hunched shoulders, and a tail. Their shimmering was very undefined, shape wise, and was limited to pinks, blues, violets, and ultra-violets (I know, can't see that spectrum, but in the vision, I could). I could 'feel' these beings, just as I could still feel the presence of my girlfriend on the bed beside me, and my friend in the other room, doing his own dmt vision. The feeling from these beings was very comforting, very supportive. I could also feel that they were scaled. No tactile info, but a detached realization. Again, this could be a result of hints at lizard people from talking to others about their trips prior to my own.

These lizard beings were speaking directly to my head, with words, images and emotions. The gist of their communication was: "It's okay, trust us. We want you to come "somewhere' (This somewhere was desribed, all at once, but the description was akin to telling a five year old every detail of physics from dynamics through Standard model into theoretical GUTS, string theory etc all in about a second. It was lost on me), and when we get 'somewhere', all will make sense, and we can answer your questions. You just have to let go of everything. Your sense of self, your hopes, dreams, your individuality, your fears. Everything." I immediatedly understood, and feared letting go of myself.

I was then swung over that stream, suspended face first over it, by whatever was gripping me. I felt senesations of warmth wherever I was touched by that grip, and then was dipped into the stream. I felt it dragging.....well, dragging at my soul, for lack of a better description. It felt like every nerve was being pulled from my body, not painfully, but slowly and unstoppable. I was bombarded by that communication from those beings.

"Let go. It will be alright. Trust us. Free yourself. Leave your bonds behind." It was like being yelled at by a dozen people, all within a foot of myself.

I noticed my hart rate and breathing picking up, like I had just hit my second wind in a long sprint. I was trying to let go, but everytime I came close, something important to me, to my personality would pop up, and anchor me into my body. A tone of urgency crept into the communications. "Hurry!" They were saying. "You cannot come with us until you let go!" It started to spped up....my heart, my breathing, the urgency. Everything was building to some sort of climax. There was an auditory tone, ringing through my whole being, and the stream was rushing past me faster than before. I felt like every thought I had about reality was the slippery rock I was holding onto in themiddle of a river. I was exhausted, and just when I felt I could no longer hold on, that I would be swept away, it all stopped.

The stream disappeared, and I was swung up out of the channel. The grip disappeared. A sense of disappointment was all I could feel from those beings as they slipped away in the direction of the stream. but also a feeling of "we'll see you when you're ready". Everything slowly melted, like timelapse photography, and I was back in the bed, looking at these scale/fractal hallucinations till they receded completely. The whole experience had a relative time of about an hour of so. In reality, i was only 'gone' from my body for about 10-15 minutes, with about five minutes afterwards to think through it all.

Like I said a very shaking experience, and one that I will have to repeat. I've dreamed some strange stuff before, but never before or since anything so vivid, detailed, and well, convincing. My girlfriend has since reported a slight increase in how often I talk in my sleep, and how I now hold more intelligible, if nonsensical, conversations while sleeping.

My experience with salvia divinorum was mush worse, and just as powerful, but since my little story there was so long, I'll hold off unless someone wants me to describe it.

disclaimer--good idea! I officially don't recommend this. if your experienced with psychedelics, try n-n-dmt. 5Meo-DMT made me feel like a bell that someone had hit with a sledge hammer. no fun. Salvia felt lik I had downloaded a program that was supposed to be n-n-dmt, but was written for alien hardware. Don't do it!
 
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Disclaimer time- I don't endorse any one reading this and thinking it would be cool to try.


By reading what happened, i dont think you will have convinced anyone! doesn't sound like you had the most easy ride.

I am curious, you say you did DMT with psilocybin? or just psilocybin? your experience would indicate to me it was psilocybin.

The strange things about entheogenic drugs like this is that is completely depends on what you think will hapen. If you are scared to do it but are putting a brave face on, it will be a bad experience as you wont be able to supress your underlying fear. People who are not fearful of it at all will nearly always have a good experience. There is no set experience for each drug, it is completely subjectiveand depends on your own expectations.

DMT seems different however, sometimes the expeirence will start bad, up to the point where the person thinks that he really will die (even though no-one has died of a DMT overdose in recorded history, not one), and after this fear of death people report an enlightening feeling of relief of being alive. People who have NDE's often gain a new passion for life, they want to make the most of themselves and live life to the full. And people who have been administered DMT often report a similar feeling, if their experience was a particularly strong one.
 
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I read The Spirit Molecule a while ago. If you can get beyond the incredibly tedious account of how he gains permission for his tests it's very interesting. His conclusion is rather surprising but then again he's taken the stuff, not me.
 
My DMT experience was a shaking one. I have never had a NDE, so cannot compare it to that. However, I have tried other substances, from LSD, to mushrooms, mdma and mda to salvia.

[.............]


Crazy experience by the sounds of it. :eye-poppi: Sounds much more like a dream than most other entheogens, thats why DMT has been linked to dreams.

Would you say that the experience was similar to a dream? but I'm presuming, much more vivid?

and one other thing, were you fully 'conscious' throughout? ie, even though what you were seeing was cleary very strange, were you able to think relatively coherently about what was happening?
 
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I would say it was similar to a dream. Much more vivid, much more recall-able. Much more cohesive, and realistic. However, I found that it was much more reminiscent of how I've felt after getting up from being knocked out by a blow to the head. A surreal feeling that something's not right, but without that amnesia and acceptance of unreal situations.

I was definitely fully conscious. With concussions, lack of oxygen passouts, dreams, even salvia divinorum, there was a disconnection. A short circuit where my consciousness had to 'restart', and take stock of what was around me. With the DMT, there was no disconnection. I had a continuous thought process analyzing what was going on, but oddly enough, the memory of taking the drug, and the thought that what I was seeing was drug-induced, never entered into it. I was aware that my body was still on the bed, my girlfriend tripping beside me, and I was aware of my friend in the other room, sitting there running more dmt, and thinking (don't know where this came from) about what to ask me about my trip, but I was also very coherent about trying to absorb everything I was seeing. The drug didn't take over my rational thought processes, like everything else has done. I was largely unaffected in that respect. Very lucid.

I have had some thoughts about trying to replicate this experience using lucid dreaming, large doses of niacin before bed, or other compounds, but have yet to go out and buy them.
 
By reading what happened, i dont think you will have convinced anyone! doesn't sound like you had the most easy ride.

I am curious, you say you did DMT with psilocybin? or just psilocybin? your experience would indicate to me it was psilocybin.

I believe I specified that is what psilocybin in the post unless I am mistaken. The only differences I can think of is that psilocybin takes longer to come into effect, and at low doses it can be a more traditional, and bearable experience. Psilocybin contains DMT. That is why it causes the effects that it causes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin

Normally DMT would break down if taken orally, but the mushrooms composition allows for it to digest and be metabolized.

What interests me more than the imagery is the science behind how these effects are achieved by the body, and why anything visual is manifested at all in the first place.
 
So, is DMT required to visually image things in your head, or not?

INRM
 
I believe I specified that is what psilocybin in the post unless I am mistaken. The only differences I can think of is that psilocybin takes longer to come into effect, and at low doses it can be a more traditional, and bearable experience. Psilocybin contains DMT. That is why it causes the effects that it causes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin

Normally DMT would break down if taken orally, but the mushrooms composition allows for it to digest and be metabolized.

What interests me more than the imagery is the science behind how these effects are achieved by the body, and why anything visual is manifested at all in the first place.

Thanks for the descriptions!


I'm trying to understand this, but a quick Investigoogle turned up only:

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...locybin+contains+DMT&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

quote: "Yes, Psilocybe mushrooms contain DMT, but in microscopic amounts. DMT is not orally active anyway, so it doesn't do anything."

I'm not arguing, just attempting to figure out what you took and what you're saying.

Mushrooms are typically ingested and give a 6-ish hour high, DMT is typically smoked and gives a 1/2 hour high...

eta:

I don't understand the chemistry, but I can see they're related, as well as closely related to serotonin...

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach....html+Psilocybin+DMT&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us
 
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Thanks for the descriptions!

Your welcome!


I'm trying to understand this, but a quick Investigoogle turned up only:

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...locybin+contains+DMT&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

quote: "Yes, Psilocybe mushrooms contain DMT, but in microscopic amounts. DMT is not orally active anyway, so it doesn't do anything."

I'm not arguing, just attempting to figure out what you took and what you're saying.

Well...if the dmt in mushrooms didn't work because it was broken down in the gut, then it wouldn't work at all...which goes against the fact that it does. The quote is true...sort of. Pharmaceutical grade DMT is going to be highly potent compared to mushrooms. Thats why I ate 6 grams as opposed to the usual 1.5, which is the recreational users typical amount. Because the chemical composition of mushrooms is different than pure dmt, it is enabled to be digested.


So, is DMT required to visually image things in your head, or not?

No. Eyes are required for that:) It could be part of the chemistry, but not a lot is actually known scientifically.
 
thesyntaxera,

I meant the ability to imagine things visually...
 
Very interesting thread! As one who has only dabbled with milder hallicinogens like LSD (and that was a while ago), I certainly never had anything like the trips described.

This is a highly subjective subject, so stories like these are our data. More data please!
 
So, is DMT required to visually image things in your head, or not?

INRM

I would say not, it mat be involved im circadian cycles but it is not a general neurotransmitter (at least at thus time), most visual processing in done at the back of the head.
 
Dancing David,

Good point, but the pineal is located pretty close to the rear part of the corpus-callossum which handles data largely between the left and right occiptal lobes...

INRM
 

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