This is the Government that You Want to Run Health-care?

D'rok said:
Also, it would have been nice if he'd provided a link to the data instead of shouting "liar" at you.
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All the relevant information is in his posts. He was either not understanding it or was lying to make a point. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that he did understand what he was saying, but after reading his last post I have come to the conclusion that he does not understand.
 
volatile said:
Does that not give you pause for thought? DOes that not cause you to doubt the ability of the market to provide the best system? Does it not piss you off royally that you, on average, pay $4,000 more per year than I do and you get worse healthcare?
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Nothing you are writing here is true.

I am sorry that you are unable to understand, but you are not comparing the same things. You have jumbled all sorts of things together and some times you even add the same thing multiple times.

Besides, WE DO NOT HAVE TO WAIT 6 MONTHS FOR HEALTH-CARE!!!

Ohh, you never answered: Why do Canadians come to America and pay out of pocket for health-care that they could get for "free" if American health-care is inferior?
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
Besides, WE DO NOT HAVE TO WAIT 6 MONTHS FOR HEALTH-CARE!!!
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Quite likely, neither does volatile, as evidenced by the study to which you linked.

Ohh, you never answered: Why do Canadians come to America and pay out of pocket for health-care that they could get for "free" if American health-care is inferior?
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Perhaps you should ask that of a Canadian?
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
You are still adding parts to the whole which are expressed in the whole.
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Not at all.

The total per capita spending is $6,000 vs $2,000 and the relative percentages of public spending are 44% and 86% of those values.

I am not adding anything to anything, as far as I can see.

Rather than all the name calling, please lay out the statistics as you see them, and explain how they support your case.
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
If you are stating that the National health-care system in Canada provides better care than I shall ask you.
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The "National" health care system in Canada isn't really. It's a single payer insurance system, not a national system like the UK has.

I will answer the question you asked volatile:

"Why do Canadians come to America and pay out of pocket for health-care that they could get for "free" if American health-care is inferior?"

"Canadians" don't. Some Canadians do for the obvious reason - i.e., some Canadians who are unlucky enough to be stuck on waiting lists for elective surgeries or MRI's and such, if they can afford it, make the decision to skip across the border. Most Canadians are not faced with this scenario.

But I've already stated that waiting lists are a valid criticism of public systems. You are offering nothing new. Most Canadians consider that problem to be preferable to un-affordable or non-universal coverage.
 
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JEROME DA GNOME said:
Nothing you are writing here is true.

I am sorry that you are unable to understand, but you are not comparing the same things. You have jumbled all sorts of things together and some times you even add the same thing multiple times.
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I had originally misread the figures, this is true. But even after clarification, the numbers still undermine your case and support mine. You pay more, and get less. This is indubitable, and you have not even attempted to prove otherwise.

Did you also miss the article I quoted that said:

"Americans pay more when they get sick than people in other Western nations and get more confused, error-prone treatment, according to the largest survey to compare U.S. health care with other nations.The survey of nearly 7,000 sick adults in the United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Britain and Germany found Americans were the most likely to pay at least $1,000 in out-of-pocket expenses. More than half went without needed care because of cost and more than one-third endured mistakes and disorganized care when they did get treated."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110301143.html


Besides, WE DO NOT HAVE TO WAIT 6 MONTHS FOR HEALTH-CARE!!!
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Neither do we, and there is no-one here who does not have to wait "forever", in that they never receive treatment because they cannot afford it.

Ohh, you never answered: Why do Canadians come to America and pay out of pocket for health-care that they could get for "free" if American health-care is inferior?
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I know nothing about Canadian healthcare.
 
volatile said:
Does that not give you pause for thought? Does that not cause you to doubt the ability of the market to provide the best system? Does it not piss you off royally that you, on average, pay $4,000 more per year than I do and you get worse healthcare?
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At this point, I am willing to pay a premium to keep what's left of the private sector in health care out of the hands of the government bureaucracies that brought us the oh-so-wonderful Veteran's Affairs medical system, the Native American Health Care System, and the US military health care systems, which are currently being extensively outsourced because of lack of capability.
 
zooterkin said:
So, nobody dies or suffers due to lack of medical attention in the US because they can't afford it?
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JEROME DA GNOME said:
Correct.
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The report quoted above says otherwise:
SUMMARY
These estimates of condition-specific excess deaths annually among uninsured adults:

- 1,300-1,400 due to unidentified and undertreated hypertension,
- 360-600 among women with breast cancer, and
- 1,200-1,500 among HIV-infected adults,

are meant to be illustrative. They provide a sense of how the overall mortality risk for uninsured adults, estimated here to be on the order of 18,000 excess deaths among uninsured adults annually, is comprised of elevated mortality rates across many disease categories. All of these excess deaths among uninsured adults occur among relatively young Americans, those under the age of 65.
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That estimates 18,000 excess deaths. Since one excess death would prove your statement wrong, would you care to reconsider?
 
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zooterkin said:
So, nobody dies or suffers due to lack of medical attention in the US because they can't afford it?
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JEROME DA GNOME said:
Correct.
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zooterkin said:
The report quoted above says otherwise.

That estimates 18,000 excess deaths. Since one excess death would prove your statement wrong, would you care to reconsider?
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JEROME DA GNOME said:
If government Medicaid is currently allowing people in the system to die, why would we want more governmnet provided health-care for more people?

Population control?
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JEROME DA GNOME said:
Please evidence that if government provided health-care for all citizens that these people would be alive.
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Goalpost moving is very intellectually dishonest
 
Tokorona said:
... It points to the current system not working. If you want to say it'll persist after reform, go ahead. But ..
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The government system does not work!

I agree!

Why would anyone what more of a system that does not work?

I think I have a definition of insanity around here somewhere...
 
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